The Sub 4 Support Thread

ewc78

Pink11 wrote: »

Only managed 5 miles last night. Legs are extremely tired & heavy. I've trained hard the last few weeks. Decided it's best I take a rest and start off again next week. Hopefully my pace will improve after the rest.

How did you all fair this week?


Fueling: I trained with gels last two marathons but tbh I always felt a bit dodgy on them and decided against them this time round.

I've been trialing 'running on empty' aka get up, no food and straight into a LSR. (I do have a coffee though).

I also carry a dioralyte and take one mid run. It works a dream. Always had an issue with headaches and nausea after long runs no matter how much I drank prior and during a run. (I always carry water and sip slowly so I didn't realise I was still dehydrated).

Q: Has anyone used 'zero' or sports specific electrolyte powders over dioralyte? Which is better or are they the same?

Started using High5 Zero Tabs a few weeks ago and find them great. I'm taking one everyday and I drink two pints the day before a long run and on the morning of the long run just before I head out the door.
I don't use gels at all.

judeboy101

Pink11 wrote: »

Great I'll give that a go next. Had never heard of it before. Any tips on cheapest way to buy?

Do you plan on running the marathon on empty too?

I'll take 2 slice of toast 2hrs before the make sure I see Mr hanky ;-)
Otherwise nothing til I kick off. Plan on eating half wagon wheel at 6,12,16,20 and tailwind regularly inbetween . I bought from kayathlon they dub based cost 20 euros good for 25hrs of lsr/marathon running

Pink11

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'll take 2 slice of toast 2hrs before the make sure I see Mr hanky ;-)
Otherwise nothing til I kick off. Plan on eating half wagon wheel at 6,12,16,20 and tailwind regularly inbetween . I bought from kayathlon they dub based cost 20 euros good for 25hrs of lsr/marathon running

Do you use Tailwind sticks or make the drink and sip on the go? Which is best as there are a few diff options on the website.
Best flavour?

Nice promise on their website: "No gut bombs: Stomach problems? You’ll love Tailwind. Unless you enjoy being doubled over, retching."

Supercell

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'll take 2 slice of toast 2hrs before the make sure I see Mr hanky ;-)
Otherwise nothing til I kick off. Plan on eating half wagon wheel at 6,12,16,20 and tailwind regularly inbetween . I bought from kayathlon they dub based cost 20 euros good for 25hrs of lsr/marathon running

Love wagonwheels! , how are you going to carry them without becoming a sticky mess?

judeboy101

Supercell wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'll take 2 slice of toast 2hrs before the make sure I see Mr hanky ;-)
Otherwise nothing til I kick off. Plan on eating half wagon wheel at 6,12,16,20 and tailwind regularly inbetween . I bought from kayathlon they dub based cost 20 euros good for 25hrs of lsr/marathon running

Love wagonwheels! , how are you going to carry them without becoming a sticky mess?

Freeze them. They turn to delicious melt in mouth gooeyness.

ariana`

judeboy best of luck tomorrow, hope it all goes to plan for you!

judeboy101

Pink11 wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'll take 2 slice of toast 2hrs before the make sure I see Mr hanky ;-)
Otherwise nothing til I kick off. Plan on eating half wagon wheel at 6,12,16,20 and tailwind regularly inbetween . I bought from kayathlon they dub based cost 20 euros good for 25hrs of lsr/marathon running

Do you use Tailwind sticks or make the drink and sip on the go? Which is best as there are a few diff options on the website.
Best flavour?

Nice promise on their website: "No gut bombs: Stomach problems? You’ll love Tailwind. Unless you enjoy being doubled over, retching."

Make and sip berry flavour.

judeboy101

Just back from Longford. Great marathon flat but feckin warm. Unfortunately didn't break 4, but set a pb of 4:08 so I'm happy enuf. Right from outset I stuck with 4hr pacers but at 18 miles I could see my pace slipping, pulled it back on track at 23 but it was too little. Hard to say if I hit a wall as my energy levels seemed grand , I just seemed to "not be pushed" to keep the pace up. I ended up on my own between 2pacer groups which was lonely as hell. Will I break 4 at dub? It's a harder course but ill try me best. Back to training tues.

ewc78

judeboy101 wrote: »

Just back from Longford. Great marathon flat but feckin warm. Unfortunately didn't break 4, but set a pb of 4:08 so I'm happy enuf. Right from outset I stuck with 4hr pacers but at 18 miles I could see my pace slipping, pulled it back on track at 23 but it was too little. Hard to say if I hit a wall as my energy levels seemed grand , I just seemed to "not be pushed" to keep the pace up. I ended up on my own between 2pacer groups which was lonely as hell. Will I break 4 at dub? It's a harder course but ill try me best. Back to training tues.

Well done.

Kellygirl

Well done Judeboy. Very warm out today. DCM will be very different and huge crowds which really help.

ariana`

Well done Judeboy, nice to get a pb!

Pink11

judeboy101 wrote: »

Just back from Longford. Great marathon flat but feckin warm. Unfortunately didn't break 4, but set a pb of 4:08 so I'm happy enuf. Right from outset I stuck with 4hr pacers but at 18 miles I could see my pace slipping, pulled it back on track at 23 but it was too little. Hard to say if I hit a wall as my energy levels seemed grand , I just seemed to "not be pushed" to keep the pace up. I ended up on my own between 2pacer groups which was lonely as hell. Will I break 4 at dub? It's a harder course but ill try me best. Back to training tues.

Congrats on the P.B, can't ask for anything more than a P.B.

Ordered tailwind sticks and powder from amazon (got a great price). Can't wait to try thanks for the recommendation.

judeboy101

Iv 9 weeks before DM, shud I switch to the meno abd do the last 8 weeks of it? Or any other suggestions. Kinda sick of the one I'm on at the mo.

ariana`

judeboy101 wrote: »

Iv 9 weeks before DM, shud I switch to the meno abd do the last 8 weeks of it? Or any other suggestions. Kinda sick of the one I'm on at the mo.

What plan are you using again? How do you feel after yesterday? Make sure you recover well! Maybe it's a training plan for back to back marathons you need?

judeboy101

ariana` wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Iv 9 weeks before DM, shud I switch to the meno abd do the last 8 weeks of it? Or any other suggestions. Kinda sick of the one I'm on at the mo.

What plan are you using again? How do you feel after yesterday? Make sure you recover well! Maybe it's a training plan for back to back marathons you need?

Feel grand. Was on this
https://runrepublic.ie/trainingplans/sub-4-hour-marathon-training-plan/

I know hh have 8week between marathon plans but they cost money.

Kellygirl

judeboy101 wrote: »

Feel grand. Was on this
https://runrepublic.ie/trainingplans/sub-4-hour-marathon-training-plan/

I know hh have 8week between marathon plans but they cost money.

I have the Advanced Marathoning book (Pfitzinger and Douglas) and if you want me to send you their 8 week schedule for 8 weeks between marathons you could PM me your email address and I’ll send it on to you.

RedRunner

Training has hit a bit of a snag. Achilles and back problem looking like will cost me a couple of weeks training. Waiting for physio appointment.

On positive note, did Kilcock 10 mile on Sunday in 79:28 which in macmillan terms gives me a 3:43 marathon notwithstanding all the usual caveats.

If two weeks off sorts me out then 8 weeks left to DCM which I hope will be enough to get enough miles in.

Kellygirl

RedRunner wrote: »

Training has hit a bit of a snag. Achilles and back problem looking like will cost me a couple of weeks training. Waiting for physio appointment.

On positive note, did Kilcock 10 mile on Sunday in 79:28 which in macmillan terms gives me a 3:43 marathon notwithstanding all the usual caveats.

If two weeks off sorts me out then 8 weeks left to DCM which I hope will be enough to get enough miles in.

Brilliant time in Kilcock. Hope you get sorted. I did the grand total of 8.3 miles last week due to injury. Saw physio yesterday and back out tonight but all easy running for a week at least. Right now I just want to make the start line of DCM it hopefully back to thinking about a time soon.

kilns

Anyone read or used the Matt Fitzgerald 80/20 running book and plans?

Murph_D

kilns wrote: »

Anyone read or used the Matt Fitzgerald 80/20 running book and plans?

Speaking for myself, no, but to get back to one of this thread’s central themes, a 4-hour marathon should be achievable for most male runners off even the most basic plan (even the Hal Higdon novice plans) with dedicated training and a good starting point in terms of weight and fitness (i.e. base mileage). Where you’re starting from counts much more than the plan you choose.

skyblue46

Murph_D wrote: »

Speaking for myself, no, but to get back to one of this thread’s central themes, a 4-hour marathon should be achievable for most male runners off even the most basic plan (even the Hal Higdon novice plans) with dedicated training and a good starting point in terms of weight and fitness (i.e. base mileage). Where you’re starting from counts much more than the plan you choose.

+1 to this. Too much time is spent worrying about plans, gels, drinks, belts etc etc. Build a good base and the improvement will come.

smashiner

skyblue46 wrote: »

+1 to this. Too much time is spent worrying about plans, gels, drinks, belts etc etc. Build a good base and the improvement will come.

Hi, I am attempting the DCM for the third time this year, 4:48 Nightmare debut in 2014* (*was sick at the time) 4:18 okish attempt in 2015.

I am following an ASIC's plan this year and it is going well for me so far. I am running 3 times a week, a short run (5k) and fast run midweek 12K at 5:30 per Km pace and a long run LSR on Sundays, now up at 24K at 6:00 per KM pace. I am also swimming 2-3 days on top of this 750M-2KM, which really appears to be helping with injuries as I am a 46 year young ex footballer and ankles and knees are troublesome from time to time.

Overall it is going well at the moment and I am targeting a Sub 4 hour marathon, but I am concerned that I am not doing enough/running fast enough. My plan calls out for a 24,12,28,28,12,32K,(16K and 12K taper) runs for the next few weekends, plus 12K fast runs during the weeks with a small 5K throw in.

10K PB is 48:11 and HM PB is 1:49:30 (last year) and I also did the murderous Rock N Roll HM a few weeks ago and felt really comfortable throughout (1:59 training run/adventure race).
Could really do with a good steer here guys.

Any thoughts on this, does this sound in the ballpark for an attempt at Sub 4, my gut feeling is that I should step up at least one of two of the 28's to a 30/32 and ramp up the distance on the faster runs midweek to get to closer to HM distance, but I am afraid of going 'off plan' and screwing myself up injury wise :rolleyes:. If I did 4:09 on the day I wouldn't be heartbroken either , but I would love to have a crack at the sub 4 target!

RayCun

smashiner wrote: »

I am running 3 times a week, a short run (5k) and fast run midweek 12K at 5:30 per Km pace and a long run LSR on Sundays, now up at 24K at 6:00 per KM pace.

Run more often.

Keep the LSR, but extend it.
Keep 12k, but run it at marathon pace (which is a bit slower)
Run twice more a week, 10k each time, same pace as your LSRs

smashiner

RayCun wrote: »

Run more often.

Keep the LSR, but extend it.
Keep 12k, but run it at marathon pace (which is a bit slower)
Run twice more a week, 10k each time, same pace as your LSRs

Thanks RayCun.
So:
Monday Rest/Short recovery swim
Tuesday 10K 6:00 per Km pace.
Wednesday 5K 6:00 per Km pace.
Thursday 12K 5:40 per Km pace.
Friday 10K 6:00 per Km pace.
Saturday Sea Swim/Rest.
Sunday LSR 26 -32K in the coming weeks. Keeping it at 6:00 per Km.

Have I got this right??

I went swimming at lunchtime today, so I am well on track for this new plan

RayCun

smashiner wrote: »

Thanks RayCun.
So:
Monday Rest/Short recovery swim
Tuesday 10K 6:00 per Km pace.
Wednesday 5K 6:00 per Km pace.
Thursday 12K 5:40 per Km pace.
Friday 10K 6:00 per Km pace.
Saturday Sea Swim/Rest.
Sunday LSR 26 -32K in the coming weeks. Keeping it at 6:00 per Km.

yes, something like that looks fine.
You can move the 5k and 10k runs around to suit, as long you keep the 12k and LSR runs separate.
You can drop the 5k run and take another rest/swim day sometimes.

coogy

Hi folks. I think this is my first post on this thread so 'howdy!'


So, sub 4, yeah? Talk to me. :cool:


Just kidding, I will start playing catch-up with all the posts and bring myself up to speed. First-time marathon runner here but fairly confident of a sub-4 time.

The Black Oil

Hey coogy.

1:21:50 for me at the FD10 yesterday. 13 minutes better than last year, or 11 better than 2016's effort. Right ankle a little sore since last night. Will see how it goes.

skyblue46

The Black Oil wrote: »

Hey coogy.

1:21:50 for me at the FD10 yesterday. 13 minutes better than last year, or 11 better than 2016's effort. Right ankle a little sore since last night. Will see how it goes.

Does this lead to a change of DCM target? Nice to get the quick chat. Sorry about the sudden departure. When herself says jump I just ask how high! :pac:

ariana`

The Black Oil wrote: »

Hey coogy.

1:21:50 for me at the FD10 yesterday. 13 minutes better than last year, or 11 better than 2016's effort. Right ankle a little sore since last night. Will see how it goes.

That is a massive improvement TBO, wow, congratulations, very impressive. Meno is working for you obviously That puts you well on for sub 4 I'd say, right? I hope the ankle will be ok.

Hi coogy. What's the HM target for Saturday? I believe 1:48 or thereabouts will see you in a good place for sub 4.

coogy

ariana` wrote: »

That is a massive improvement TBO, wow, congratulations, very impressive. Meno is working for you obviously That puts you well on for sub 4 I'd say, right? I hope the ankle will be ok.

Hi coogy. What's the HM target for Saturday? I believe 1:48 or thereabouts will see you in a good place for sub 4.

Ariana, I'm aiming for a time of 1:45. I'm basing this on my most recent 10 mile race which was 1:18 back in July so I'm pretty confident I'll manage it.