The Sub 4 Support Thread

ariana`

Pink11 wrote: »

Little bit of advice needed...

I have the medieval 3/4 marathon on Saturday and can't decide how much to run mid week this week. I want to be fresh.

Ran 21 miles on Saturday. Strength class Sunday. Rested yesterday. Today & tomorrow... was planning on doing 4 miles easy plus a strength class today and tomorrow. Resting thurs and fri as I want to be fresh and get an idea if I can pace a sub 4 on Saturday.

I'll be interested to hear what others say too but my initial thoughts is that it's not a good idea to race a 3/4 marathon. I'd treat it as either an LSR or a session that includes marathon pace miles broken up with easy miles, such as

8m easy, 5m @ MP, 2m easy, 5m@ MP

I'd be afraid if you race it you will be the next 2-3 weeks recovering and then it will be nearly time to start tapering for Dublin and you'll have missed out on key training weeks.

Just my thoughts.

OOnegative

Pink11 wrote: »

Little bit of advice needed...

I have the medieval 3/4 marathon on Saturday and can't decide how much to run mid week this week. I want to be fresh.

Ran 21 miles on Saturday. Strength class Sunday. Rested yesterday. Today & tomorrow... was planning on doing 4 miles easy plus a strength class today and tomorrow. Resting thurs and fri as I want to be fresh and get an idea if I can pace a sub 4 on Saturday.

Wouldn’t change anything there, you should be well rested & fresh for the 3/4.

Edit: Seen ariana’s post above I would be in agreement with not racing the 3/4, many good runners have left marathon results at a 3/4 by racing it to hard.

Pink11

Thank you both kindly. This looks great thanks ariana'

8m easy, 5m @ MP, 2m easy, 5m@ MP

ariana`

Pink11 wrote: »

Thank you both kindly. This looks great thanks ariana'

8m easy, 5m @ MP, 2m easy, 5m@ MP

You're welcome. It would be a great session and a solid test of your marathon pace without leaving your marathon out there. There's a rule of thumb that says to allow 1 day recovery for every 1m raced, 20 days is a lot of recovery days (rest or very easy running) this close to the marathon.

Best of luck, let us know how you get on.

kilns

On a similar note, most people have half marathons in their training plans, do most people race it to give them a good indication or use it as a training run as above, varying pace?

Pink11

kilns wrote: »

On a similar note, most people have half marathons in their training plans, do most people race it to give them a good indication or use it as a training run as above, varying pace?

I'm doing dub half marathon and i raced them as hard as I could the previous two times I did DCM no idea if that was wise or stupid but I needed an indication of where I was at.

ariana`

kilns wrote: »

On a similar note, most people have half marathons in their training plans, do most people race it to give them a good indication or use it as a training run as above, varying pace?

I think a hm (or 10m) race in the build up is a good thing to do for many reasons but, and this is just my own opinion, i think the race series half is very late for racing a half flat out, 7-8 weeks out from the marathon is better timing imo.

ewc78

kilns wrote: »

On a similar note, most people have half marathons in their training plans, do most people race it to give them a good indication or use it as a training run as above, varying pace?

Trying to decide what to do at the Dublin Half myself. I've read so much on here about Half times translating to Marathon times that I would like to see what my Half time is. On the other hand I've been doing loads of Marathon paced miles and have thought about using the Dublin Half as a practice for DCM and running it at Marathon Pace,even though I know I won't have much trouble doing that pace for 13 miles. Thought though that I could always also use it as practice for other things like following the Pacer( I might follow one in the Marathon) and fueling and stuff. Not that I'll need much fuel for the half but just to practice it.
I dunno what to do really.

RedRunner

kilns wrote: »

On a similar note, most people have half marathons in their training plans, do most people race it to give them a good indication or use it as a training run as above, varying pace?

Normally I would say it's there to be raced but personally I feel it is too close in the calendar this year. Remember what is the main thing ( now where did I hear that before AMK? ) . I would use it as a long run and do some MP miles. Just doing it at MP would be no huge help IMO. Do a few miles beforehand and then do it at MP would be very beneficial. i'd caveat all of that though in the context of what you did week before and what you are planning in the following week.

The Black Oil

Murph_D wrote: »

I would revise. Much better to be training off paces based on current fitness. The new M target will still be a big challenge, but a more appropriate one. Well done on the PB.

Hi, thanks. I find calculators a bit confusing. This is the one I use. http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php Is there one on Runners World? I only ever seem to find a a generic link and nothing with any options to input figures. Do you've to subscribe? And MacMillan...Taking calculators with a grain of salt, of course...since they don't assume optimal conditions, rest, sleep, etc.

But anyway, back to the title of the thread and all that. Based on 1:21:50 from FD10...calculator machine linked about says 3:47 for a marathon. At this stage of the game I'm not too hooked into sub 4 yet and am trying to train well, take care of niggles and get to the start line. Going from a 4:11 to 3:47, eh...yeah (RayCun's report probably worth rereading). I'll probably settle more into a target once we hit taper country.

Singer

A raced HM will give you a great benchmark to use for the marathon, and is a super workout. It's the best race practice you'll get. Go for it.

eyrie

RayCun wrote: »

My own experience is that in the race series leading up to my first marathon, I ran 81 minutes in the 10 mile and 1:47 in the half, then 3:58. I might have had another few minutes in me in the marathon, but not much.

That's very interesting, thanks Ray - have just read your report of the marathon too. My recent 10 mile and half times are almost exactly the same as yours from that year, but I still haven't decided whether to attempt to go for a time goal for the marathon or just enjoy the day for the first one. Lots to think about.

kilns

I feel I might try and race the HM, well when I say race, I mean look for a improvement on my previous half marathon

Dublin doesnt suit for me this year, so I am doing Valencia and the HM will be in Luzern but the timing is similar i believe, 4 weeks gap between the two

ariana`

eyrie wrote: »

That's very interesting, thanks Ray - have just read your report of the marathon too. My recent 10 mile and half times are almost exactly the same as yours from that year, but I still haven't decided whether to attempt to go for a time goal for the marathon or just enjoy the day for the first one. Lots to think about.

eyrie there's no reason you can't have an enjoyable run and sub 4!!!

I think the problem occurs when someone pushes for a time that is either a small bit too ambitious for them or in some cases a lot too ambitious for them! They will most likely have a horrible experience but if the target is realistic and well within you then you can still have an enjoyable run. Based on your recent 10m & HM times and on your training i think 3:59:59 is very realistic for you.

Ultimately you're going to have some sort of time goal even if you decide to just enjoy it, as i did last year, i still had a loose time just to give me a bit of focus and pace for starting off, i can't imagine anybody starting off with no idea of starting pace

I think you could target 3:55 but that might be a risk of being a small bit too ambitious (though it won't surprise me in the least if you run 3:55!).

skyblue46

ariana` wrote: »

eyrie there's no reason you can't have an enjoyable run and sub 4!!!

I think the problem occurs when someone pushes for a time that is either a small bit too ambitious for them or in some cases a lot too ambitious for them! They will most likely have a horrible experience but if the target is realistic and well within you then you can still have an enjoyable run. Based on your recent 10m & HM times and on your training i think 3:59:59 is very realistic for you.

Ultimately you're going to have some sort of time goal even if you decide to just enjoy it, as i did last year, i still had a loose time just to give me a bit of focus and pace for starting off, i can't imagine anybody starting off with no idea of starting pace

I think you could target 3:55 but that might be a risk of being a small bit too ambitious (though it won't surprise me in the least if you run 3:55!).

+1 to all of the above. Another option which might work for you is to have a look at this site.
http://findmymarathon.com/pacebandresult.php?race=Dublin%20Marathon

It gives pace bands which take course elevation into account and also allows you to choose from even splits, negative or positive splits. It also lets you select how conservatively you start out. It's interesting to use to look at different pacing strategies. Possibly select 3:50 with a very conservative start and an aggressive negative split. That would take you nice and comfortably to 15 miles and then you could choose on the day whether to pick it up or not. I had more than one pace band with me last year! :pac:

RayCun

You could go with the pacers to Walkinstown roundabout, and see how you feel there. The first half is harder, but also people tend to go too fast in the first half. If you stay behind the pacers - letting them move ahead on the uphills and catching up on the downs - you'll go through the first half in 1:59:xx, and you could pick up a few minutes in the second half if you can finish strong

coogy

skyblue46 wrote: »

+1 to all of the above. Another option which might work for you is to have a look at this site.
http://findmymarathon.com/pacebandresult.php?race=Dublin%20Marathon

It gives pace bands which take course elevation into account and also allows you to choose from even splits, negative or positive splits. It also lets you select how conservatively you start out. It's interesting to use to look at different pacing strategies. Possibly select 3:50 with a very conservative start and an aggressive negative split. That would take you nice and comfortably to 15 miles and then you could choose on the day whether to pick it up or not. I had more than one pace band with me last year! :pac:

Wow, these bands are great, never knew these existed!

Murph_D

I used that pace band in 2016 - I have to say it's not for me. I was grand with the first seven or eight miles but when the time came to speed up I found I was locked into the slower opening pace! I think using the official pacers and completely ignoring your watch and pace band is far more beneficial, if it's an option. Any mental work you can delegate during a marathon pays back in multiples!

OOnegative

Murph_D wrote: »

I used that pace band in 2016 - I have to say it's not for me. I was grand with the first seven or eight miles but when the time came to speed up I found I was locked into the slower opening pace! I think using the official pacers and completely ignoring your watch and pace band is far more beneficial, if it's an option. Any mental work you can delegate during a marathon pays back in multiples!

+1 to letting the pacers do the work/mental arithmetic for you. The pacers in DCM are legendary and are guaranteed to help you achieve your goal marathon time if you can stick with them for the duration.

Pink11

Going to post this in here too as seen some of you have the same problems as me:

Fueling:

I've been trialing out a few things, thought I'd give you guys an update for anyone else in the same situation. Here is my first post.


So I was racking my brain trying to come with better ways to top up and keep me going for the marathon/

I'm going to trial this bottle this for the 3/4 marathon in Kilkenny on Saturday:

https://www.tailwindnutrition.co.uk/TWFLSK.html

I have two of them. Plan is to have them full of powder, no water and squished into my flipbelt. When I need them, out they come and fill with water at the station. Fingers crossed plan works, if so I'll be in heaven. Will be NO need to even slow down on DCM day. No excuses!

RayCun

how do you fill them without slowing down?

Pink11

RayCun wrote: »

how do you fill them without slowing down?

They are very easy/quick to open. Plan on grabbing a bottle at station and pouring some in as I run without completely stopping. Will Obviously have to slow slightly while I pour for a few seconds but keeping in mind previously because the powder is quite messy, I had to come to a stand still to mix. When I looked back on my watch I was losing up to a MINUTE.

The powder itself is working a dream for me. Nothing else would agree with my stomach.

Safiri

Murph_D wrote: »

I think using the official pacers and completely ignoring your watch and pace band is far more beneficial

Sometimes, I think ignorance isn't always bliss. A few issues with this approach is that you don't run your own effort when it comes to uphills and downhills. Also as good as the pacers are in Dublin, they are not infallible and have been known to run some errant splits and be a bit slavish to the garmin, I'll get shot for this here but I one year I ran it with the pace group, they ran a 6:37 mile up the hill in chesterfield ave when goal pace was 6:51 and went through halfway in under 1:29. They aren't crazy splits by any means and it,s all my fault for going with them but if I could go back, I would've dropped back to a 7+ mile on that section and worked my way slowly back up to them in the second half on the downhills.

If you're in shape to go sub-4, you should be able to reel back in the small gaps you give up running your own effort if done slowly. Do not depend on anyone else to do anything for you whether that comes to pacing orholding drinks or gels out on the course. The pacers are very useful and extremely helpful but they are a guide rather than the rule. be aware of what you are doing too.

RayCun

I always tell people to imagine they are connected to the pacers by a rubber band, not a rope. You don't have to stay a fixed distance behind them, and you should bear in mind that the pace is easier for them so they will take less notice of hills. So let them open a gap going uphill, then close that gap again on the downhill.

And one of the most useful things about pacers is that they can signal when you are going too fast. If your goal time is 4 hours, and you start behind the pacers, they help put a ceiling on your pace.

Murph_D

Safiri wrote: »

Sometimes, I think ignorance isn't always bliss. A few issues with this approach is that you don't run your own effort when it comes to uphills and downhills. Also as good as the pacers are in Dublin, they are not infallible and have been known to run some errant splits and be a bit slavish to the garmin, I'll get shot for this here but I one year I ran it with the pace group, they ran a 6:37 mile up the hill in chesterfield ave when goal pace was 6:51 and went through halfway in under 1:29. They aren't crazy splits by any means and it,s all my fault for going with them but if I could go back, I would've dropped back to a 7+ mile on that section and worked my way slowly back up to them in the second half on the downhills.

If you're in shape to go sub-4, you should be able to reel back in the small gaps you give up running your own effort if done slowly. Do not depend on anyone else to do anything for you whether that comes to pacing orholding drinks or gels out on the course. The pacers are very useful and extremely helpful but they are a guide rather than the rule. be aware of what you are doing too.

Completely agree with all of this. Ultimately the group is a guide. It's their job in Dublin to run an even pace and come in about 30 secs under the time - it's specifically requested. Anyone tracking a pace group should bear this in mind and take responsibility for their own performance. But if you use the group as a motivational guide - either visually or for the verbal encouragement - I think it can still remove a lot of the anxiety around doing your own arithmetic, looking out for the mile markers etc etc. That's been my experience anyway, but of course everyone is different.

ewc78

Murph_D wrote: »

I used that pace band in 2016 - I have to say it's not for me. I was grand with the first seven or eight miles but when the time came to speed up I found I was locked into the slower opening pace! I think using the official pacers and completely ignoring your watch and pace band is far more beneficial, if it's an option. Any mental work you can delegate during a marathon pays back in multiples!

Yeah I'd agree with that. I wore one for the first few miles of my last Marathon but ripped it off soon enough into the race. Much easier just follow the Pacer if you're going for a specific time than be worried looking at a pace band.

Kellygirl

I used one of those course specific pace bands last year. Best choice I ever made. I doctored it slightly to add in the paces I needed to run for each mile so no mental arithmetic needed as the pace changed from mile to mile. I missed a few mile markers alright and obviously there was a difference between them and my gps so had to work that out every now and then alright.

I never seem to do well with pacers though so this suited me.

skyblue46

I loved it too. I think that the mental maths is something I actually enjoy. I got huge satisfaction from being close to, or hitting, each split. Strange but true :pac:

eyrie

Really useful advice being given here, thanks. I think there's probably a (quite personal, I imagine) balance to be found between using the pacers and listening to yourself. I've certainly found it useful sometimes in other races to have someone else do some of the mental work for a bit, but I also know very much that I need to follow what feels right for me in the moment, so I don't think I would want to slavishly follow someone else's pace.

RayCun wrote: »

I always tell people to imagine they are connected to the pacers by a rubber band, not a rope. You don't have to stay a fixed distance behind them, and you should bear in mind that the pace is easier for them so they will take less notice of hills. So let them open a gap going uphill, then close that gap again on the downhill.

This sounds like a really good approach actually, and allows for a bit more flexibility.
I do still have a concern about going anywhere near the pacers for DCM though, which is that I presume that means you'll be stuck in a giant crowd for most of the time (particularly in the 4 hour camp), and I hate that feeling of having no room around me when running. But maybe DCM is like that no matter what?

Kellygirl

eyrie wrote: »

Really useful advice being given here, thanks. I think there's probably a (quite personal, I imagine) balance to be found between using the pacers and listening to yourself. I've certainly found it useful sometimes in other races to have someone else do some of the mental work for a bit, but I also know very much that I need to follow what feels right for me in the moment, so I don't think I would want to slavishly follow someone else's pace.


This sounds like a really good approach actually, and allows for a bit more flexibility.
I do still have a concern about going anywhere near the pacers for DCM though, which is that I presume that means you'll be stuck in a giant crowd for most of the time (particularly in the 4 hour camp), and I hate that feeling of having no room around me when running. But maybe DCM is like that no matter what?

I’ve only ran Dublin once and I started behind the 4:30 pacers and ran my own race and reeled them in round the 10 mile mark. It was obviously conjested for the first few miles but not as bad as it looks on videos sometimes. Then it spreads out and while there’s always people around you there’s plenty of space. When I caught up with the 4:30 crowd I had fun getting past them as it was a huge crowd (and a particularly narrow part too). But you can run slightly ahead or behind and not be in the thick of the group too.