The Sub 4 Support Thread

Kellygirl

Bluesquare wrote: »

Charleville sounds like a great race , one of these years I might make it to Cork for the festivities ! I’m doing Ratoath in September which I did last year and hated . But goldfish brain and all that .

Your using similar paces to me all right for training . My head tells me I should be aiming for about 4:10. The problem I have is that my heart ain’t listening and 4:10 isn’t motivating . I know it’s still a decent marathon and would be a pb but sigh there is no glamour in it ! I’m on Strava alright - well my runs feed in from garmin anyway !

Ha ha - after struggling the last few miles last year and feeling miserable for them but running in waving / laughing and really strong at 4:20 in DCM17 I’d take that over a miserable sub 4 any day.

I’d love to follow you on Strava - I’ll pm you.

Bluesquare

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm doing the Rock n Roll Half Sunday week.
I'm not sure how to approach it and nearly wish I hadn't bothered signing up.
Should I race it to see where I am progress wise?
I'm not all that bothered with setting PBs in Half Marathons at the moment so I was thinking about just going to treat it as a long run and tack on a few miles before to bring it up to the 18 miles that the plan asks for that weekend.
My thinking is it will be more beneficial to my training to stick to the required LSR than racing a half. I feel it takes me too long to recover from such efforts and I would rather keep to the plan and still be in shape to do the following weeks workouts.
I may throw in a few MP miles during the half but other than than just take it as a LSR but with a medal and t shirt at the finish

That is a tough race as well - I’m avoiding it even though it’s on my club league table .

I was supposed to race on Sunday a tenk. I bottled it in the end . I decided the course was too tough and weather too hot. I wanted to keep my current pb as a motivator - not overshadowed by a bad race . So I did it as part of a long run . Admittedly last 2k couldn’t help but speed up in the buzz of it all !!

Bluesquare

Kellygirl wrote: »

Ha ha - after struggling the last few miles last year and feeling miserable for them but running in waving / laughing and really strong at 4:20 in DCM17 I’d take that over a miserable sub 4 any day.

I’d love to follow you on Strava - I’ll pm you.

I have had two absolutely crap marathons and logic does dictate I should have an enjoyable one before a sub 4 attempt . From reading various logs on here - my current thinking is to start slower then sub 4 pace - try to do first 8 mile at 4:05-4:10 pace and then see where I go from there .

Cool on the strava thing .

ewc78

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Hi
Long time lurker but haven't posted with too much confidence (imposter syndrome!! :rolleyes:) on this thread.

I will be posting majority of my training progress in my log: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057964220&page=11

I am following the P&D 18 week plan, it's going well, really "enjoying" it.

Will no doubt have more questions as DCM gets closer.

thanks

Read your log there from start to finish. We are very similar in paces and goals(which they should be I suppose seeing as we are both trying for sub 4hr!)

Will follow your log with interest.

Mr. Guappa

I might as well throw my hat in the ring here too. Ran my first marathon last year in 4:13. I've had a consistent year since that (GC tells me I've clocked up 1,499.6 miles over the last 12 calendar months) and think I should be able for sub 4 this time around.

I'm following the boards grads intermediate plan, as those plans seen to work for me at the moment and I really like the structure. I think I might be capable of dipping a little bit under the 4:00, but the marathon kicked my ass last year so I'm definitely not going to underestimate it this time. For the moment I'm just concentrating on, and really enjoying, the training. I've two half marathons scheduled in the build up (Clonmel & Race Series), so I'll see how they go, and how training in general goes before thinking too much about a target time.

Dealerz2.0

ewc78 wrote: »

Read your log there from start to finish. We are very similar in paces and goals(which they should be I suppose see as we are both trying for sub 4hr!)

Will follow your log with interest.

Thanks ewc

Dealerz2.0

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm doing the Rock n Roll Half Sunday week.
I'm not sure how to approach it and nearly wish I hadn't bothered signing up.
Should I race it to see where I am progress wise?
I'm not all that bothered with setting PBs in Half Marathons at the moment so I was thinking about just going to treat it as a long run and tack on a few miles before to bring it up to the 18 miles that the plan asks for that weekend.
My thinking is it will be more beneficial to my training to stick to the required LSR than racing a half. I feel it takes me too long to recover from such efforts and I would rather keep to the plan and still be in shape to do the following weeks workouts.
I may throw in a few MP miles during the half but other than than just take it as a LSR but with a medal and t shirt at the finish

I think you’ve already answered the question on whether you should race it.

As many people say...keep the main thing the main thing...having said all that...I raced last weekend to see if there was “potential” there for changing training plans to sub 4 rather than 4:10/15...it was a gamble and with 13 weeks left and a recovery week on my plan, I thought it worth the test.

Dealerz2.0

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I might as well throw my hat in the ring here too. Ran my first marathon last year in 4:13. I've had a consistent year since that (GC tells me I've clocked up 1,499.6 miles over the last 12 calendar months) and think I should be able for sub 4 this time around.

I'm following the boards grads intermediate plan, as those plans seen to work for me at the moment and I really like the structure. I think I might be capable of dipping a little bit under the 4:00, but the marathon kicked my ass last year so I'm definitely not going to underestimate it this time. For the moment I'm just concentrating on, and really enjoying, the training. I've two half marathons scheduled in the build up (Clonmel & Race Series), so I'll see how they go, and how training in general goes before thinking too much about a target time.

Great to see you jumping in A.

You train so consistently, and you are really disciplined on the paces.

Dev1234

Not sure if people have seen this before but here is an excellent description of the course from Tunguska advocating a negative split for DCM.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92595815&postcount=754

I believe the start and finish have changed slightly by the guts of it remain unchanged.

I went with a negative split last year and snuck under the 4 hour mark with 30 seconds to spare.

Not sure what shape I'm in this year so I'm going to race the Longford and Charleville half's over the next couple of weeks to get a gauge and take it from there. Only out 3 times a week following the FIRST training plan so we'll see how it all pans out come end of October!!

ewc78

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm doing the Rock n Roll Half Sunday week.
I'm not sure how to approach it and nearly wish I hadn't bothered signing up.
Should I race it to see where I am progress wise?
I'm not all that bothered with setting PBs in Half Marathons at the moment so I was thinking about just going to treat it as a long run and tack on a few miles before to bring it up to the 18 miles that the plan asks for that weekend.
My thinking is it will be more beneficial to my training to stick to the required LSR than racing a half. I feel it takes me too long to recover from such efforts and I would rather keep to the plan and still be in shape to do the following weeks workouts.
I may throw in a few MP miles during the half but other than than just take it as a LSR but with a medal and t shirt at the finish

So I did it and was delighted I did in the end.
Slight hiccup when I parked the car in the Phoenix Park when I realised I hadn't brought my watch with me. I did have my phone so I brought it with me so I could still see my splits afterwards, sure if it's not on Strava it never happened right?!
Obviously I now couldn't see my pace or splits as I wasn't going to run with my phone in my hand but in hindsight this was probably a good thing.
Anyway I decided to run it by feel and to take her handy enough and maybe go a touch faster than LSR pace so was looking at around a 2:05 finish.
Well that was the plan anyway....

Like I said in my above post I didn't feel the need to go and race it as I really only care about my A goal of a sub 4 Marathon,today's plan called for 18 miles so I did a few miles before hand around the start and I planned on doing a couple at the end getting back to my car.

Anyway long story short I finished in 1:53:00 on the nose.
I honestly couldn't believe it. I knew about half way through I was probably going faster than the planned slightly faster than LSR pace so I guessed maybe I was doing probably nearer to Marathon Pace, turns out I ran the final 10km at 8:15 pace.
To be honest I'm delighted, I felt so strong all through and was passing loads of people going up the hills in the Park.
I reckon I could go sub 1:50 if I really went for it so I'm hoping it has really put me in a good position with 11 weeks of training still left before DCM.

Kellygirl

ewc78 wrote: »

So I did it and was delighted I did in the end.
Slight hiccup when I parked the car in the Phoenix Park when I realised I hadn't brought my watch with me. I did have my phone so I brought it with me so I could still see my splits afterwards, sure if it's not on Strava it never happened right?!
Obviously I now couldn't see my pace or splits as I wasn't going to run with my phone in my hand but in hindsight this was probably a good thing.
Anyway I decided to run it by feel and to take her handy enough and maybe go a touch faster than LSR pace so was looking at around a 2:05 finish.
Well that was the plan anyway....

Like I said in my above post I didn't feel the need to go and race it as I really only care about my A goal of a sub 4 Marathon,today's plan called for 18 miles so I did a few miles before hand around the start and I planned on doing a couple at the end getting back to my car.

Anyway long story short I finished in 1:53:00 on the nose.
I honestly couldn't believe it. I knew about half way through I was probably going faster than the planned slightly faster than LSR pace so I guessed maybe I was doing probably nearer to Marathon Pace, turns out I ran the final 10km at 8:15 pace.
To be honest I'm delighted, I felt so strong all through and was passing loads of people going up the hills in the Park.
I reckon I could go sub 1:50 if I really went for it so I'm hoping it has really put me in a good position with 11 weeks of training still left before DCM.

That’s a great time considering you did extra miles beforehand and didn’t race all out. Definitely bodes well for you. Well done.

smashiner

Hi all,
I have been slowly chipping away at the LSR's over the past few weeks and hit 24K yesterday. I am a little concerned that I felt quite tired running at 6:00 per Km and I am hoping that I will find my 'marathon legs' in the coming weeks. Maybe it was the heat or maybe I need another few weeks of LSRing to feel a bit stronger.

I have completed the DCM 3 times before with 4:08 in 2018 being my PB. I was dabbling in Triathlon stuff on and off for most of the year but have knuckled down in the past 4/5 weeks to mostly running and keeping up two swimming sessions a week as I found that really helped me with injuries last year.

My current training looks like:
Monday Rest, (Swim 1K at the pool Monday evening)
Tuesday 8K recovery run 5:45 pace,
Wednesday 7K (5K of 1K's at 4:30 per KM pace, 1K warm up and 1K warm down),
Thursday Rest/light Gym/bike spin the legs,
Friday 8K 5:30 per Km,
Saturday 1.5K-2K Sea Swim,
Sunday LSR (at 24K now).

Any thoughts on this guys, I am a bit injury prone so 4 days of running would probably be my limit. I plan to keep up the LSR's at 26/28/30/32 over the next 4-6 week and get 32K in 2 or 3 times and also maybe lengthening one of the midweek runs to say 14/16K.

Is my LSR pace ok, should I be doing something else midweek run wise??
Any shards of lights would be welcome. .

skyblue46

smashiner wrote: »

Hi all,
I have been slowly chipping away at the LSR's over the past few weeks and hit 24K yesterday. I am a little concerned that I felt quite tired running at 6:00 per Km and I am hoping that I will find my 'marathon legs' in the coming weeks. Maybe it was the heat or maybe I need another few weeks of LSRing to feel a bit stronger.

I have completed the DCM 3 times before with 4:08 in 2018 being my PB. I was dabbling in Triathlon stuff on and off for most of the year but have knuckled down in the past 4/5 weeks to mostly running and keeping up two swimming sessions a week as I found that really helped me with injuries last year.

My current training looks like:
Monday Rest, (Swim 1K at the pool Monday evening)
Tuesday 8K recovery run 5:45 pace,
Wednesday 7K (5K of 1K's at 4:30 per KM pace, 1K warm up and 1K warm down),
Thursday Rest/light Gym/bike spin the legs,
Friday 8K 5:30 per Km,
Saturday 1.5K-2K Sea Swim,
Sunday LSR (at 24K now).

Any thoughts on this guys, I am a bit injury prone so 4 days of running would probably be my limit. I plan to keep up the LSR's at 26/28/30/32 over the next 4-6 week and get 32K in 2 or 3 times and also maybe lengthening one of the midweek runs to say 14/16K.

Is my LSR pace ok, should I be doing something else midweek run wise??
Any shards of lights would be welcome. .

All runs including 'recovery' are at a pace that is equal to or faster than your best marathon pace. They need to be slowed down quite a bit, the recovery run in particular.

Murph_D

skyblue46 wrote: »

All runs including 'recovery' are at a pace that is equal to or faster than your best marathon pace. They need to be slowed down quite a bit, the recovery run in particular.

To add to the above, 6:00/k is not LSR pace for 4-hour marathon target - at only 19 secs/k slower than MP it’s a ‘steady’ run at best. Nothing wrong with some of your LR runs (or parts of them) being at this pace but certainly not all. No wonder it feels difficult. Look back on the previous attempts - wht are you doing differently this time, in terms of approach, volume, structure, pace?

smashiner

Murph_D wrote: »

To add to the above, 6:00/k is not LSR pace for 4-hour marathon target - at only 19 secs/k slower than MP it’s a ‘steady’ run at best. Nothing wrong with some of your LR runs (or parts of them) being at this pace but certainly not all. No wonder it feels difficult. Look back on the previous attempts - wht are you doing differently this time, in terms of approach, volume, structure, pace?

Cheers guys,
I will slow down the LSR's to say 6:15/6:20 per KM so? I just sometimes struggle with the concept of running the LSR's so slow and then aiming for 5:40 pace or so on the day. I need to trust the process a bit more I suppose.

This might sounds a bit mad but I was thinking of actually aiming for 3:50 or 3:55 this year as I tend to struggle from mile 22 on and if I fade a bit then Sub 4 (the real goal) would still be on the cards. I tried a negative split last year and was actually on track until Milltown and the wheels fell off a bit but I acknowledged the fact that I was fading and backed off the pace a little and settled for my 'B' time of 4:10 and actually enjoyed the last 4/5 miles.

I am also down about 10lbs in weight this year too so I feel that having a good crack at Sub 4 is more on the cards this year than ever before...although I believe that I can do it every year...:).

If training goes well in the coming weeks, what would be a good LSR pace for 3:50/ 3:55? I will probably realise that this is mad and aim for Sub 4 on the day but I was curious to see what that would look like.....

Thanks again for the advice.

Murph_D

Is there anything in recent performance history to suggest 3:50 or 3:55 targets are reasonable? If so, I’d say by all means train for those targets using appropriate paces. If not, that kind of approach is misguided, in my opinion, and more likely to lead to 4:15 than 3:59.

Train to current ability. A simple rule that many of us (and I’ve been guilty myself) find difficult to grasp.

And I don’t mean to be discouraging or smart, but you already know what it feels like to train at faster-than-goal-time pace, because you’re doing it already.

smashiner

Murph_D wrote: »

Is there anything in recent performance history to suggest 3:50 or 3:55 targets are reasonable? If so, I’d say by all means train for those targets using appropriate paces. If not, that kind of approach is misguided, in my opinion, and more likely to lead to 4:15 than 3:59.

Train to current ability. A simple rule that many of us (and I’ve been guilty myself) find difficult to grasp.

And I don’t mean to be discouraging or smart, but you already know what it feels like to train at faster-than-goal-time pace, because you’re doing it already.

No offence taken at all, as I am a realist too and I could easily end up with a 4:15 'horrible finish to the race' for just going out too hard at the start.

I will take on board the LSR advice and slow things down for the next few weeks and see how the body is in about 8 weeks time before deciding what time to go for. 3:59:59 is the goal after all and then I can burn my ASIC's afterwards and take up snooker......:D

Cheers.

Bluesquare

Are many folk doing Frank on Saturday ? If so are you planning to race it ? What are your target times? If not racing it are you running at MP or is there another plan ?

sibeen99

Bluesquare wrote: »

Are many folk doing Frank on Saturday ? If so are you planning to race it ? What are your target times? If not racing it are you running at MP or is there another plan ?

I’m doing it but undecided how to approach it. I’m following P and D plan which has a 15m with 12 mile pace this weekend but I think I’d like to give the 10 miler a good bash. Might wait and see how the legs are feeling. I’d be interested to see what others are doing..

Unthought Known

sibeen99 wrote: »

I’m doing it but undecided how to approach it. I’m following P and D plan which has a 15m with 12 mile pace this weekend but I think I’d like to give the 10 miler a good bash. Might wait and see how the legs are feeling. I’d be interested to see what others are doing..

I would recommend racing it on Saturday. It will give you a good indication of where you are training-wise.
Personally, I will be cutting down the MLR on Wednesday to 10 miles, racing Saturday and running the long run on Sunday very easy.

Degsy123

sibeen99 wrote: »

I’m doing it but undecided how to approach it. I’m following P and D plan which has a 15m with 12 mile pace this weekend but I think I’d like to give the 10 miler a good bash. Might wait and see how the legs are feeling. I’d be interested to see what others are doing..

I’m in the same boat - following P&D but would definitely like to give the 10 a good go on Saturday. Was thinking that would be ok since this weekends P&D Run is supposed to be a pace run anyway !

sibeen99

Unthought Known wrote: »

I would recommend racing it on Saturday. It will give you a good indication of where you are training-wise.
Personally, I will be cutting down the MLR on Wednesday to 10 miles, racing Saturday and running the long run on Sunday very easy.

That’s an interesting way of doing it. Will you do the 6m on the Thursday or leave that out altogether? I’m not sure I’d like to face into the long run on Sunday after the race. I was thinking maybe a couple of very easy warm up and cool down miles Saturday and the 6m on Sunday.

sibeen99

Degsy123 wrote: »

I’m in the same boat - following P&D but would definitely like to give the 10 a good go on Saturday. Was thinking that would be ok since this weekends P&D Run is supposed to be a pace run anyway !

Yeah and maybe the faster pace but shorter distance would be a good alternative to longer and slower. I really want this plan to work so I’m a bit apprehensive about changing it.

skyblue46

sibeen99 wrote: »

Yeah and maybe the faster pace but shorter distance would be a good alternative to longer and slower. I really want this plan to work so I’m a bit apprehensive about changing it.

Changing a few miles in a plan that is 600/700 miles long won't make any difference really. If you feel like racing it, race it

Dealerz2.0

skyblue46 wrote: »

Changing a few miles in a plan that is 600/700 miles long won't make any difference really. If you feel like racing it, race it

But....but...is the main thing not the main thing S?

I thought the priority was to run as per P&D the planned 16 miles (12 at PMP)....but now I don’t know anymore!

I definitely felt the last half marathon race took a good few days out of me, felt tired going back into the reasonably high weekly mileage.

skyblue46

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

But....but...is the main thing not the main thing S?

I thought the priority was to run as per P&D the planned 16 miles (12 at PMP)....but now I don’t know anymore!

I definitely felt the last half marathon race took a good few days out of me, felt tired going back into the reasonably high weekly mileage.

I have very little knowledge of the plan but throwing in a race (as long as there are a couple of days easy before and after) shouldn't unsettle the ship too much. Are there any races built into the plan?

Dealerz2.0

skyblue46 wrote: »

I have very little knowledge of the plan but throwing in a race (as long as there are a couple of days easy before and after) shouldn't unsettle the ship too much. Are there any races built into the plan?

Yeah there’s a few, but in later weeks.

The short term target for me is definitely to give the race series half a good lash, so I’ll probably end up holding off on Saturday.

Unthought Known

sibeen99 wrote: »

That’s an interesting way of doing it. Will you do the 6m on the Thursday or leave that out altogether? I’m not sure I’d like to face into the long run on Sunday after the race. I was thinking maybe a couple of very easy warm up and cool down miles Saturday and the 6m on Sunday.

Yeah I'll do the 6 miles rec on Thursday. I've just gone back and read the chapter on tune up races again so I'll also cut the Sunday run back to 6 miles recovery.
Yes, do the warm up and cool down. Have another read of the tune up section at the end of chapter one. They talk about the advantages of actually racing rather than using them as marathon pace sessions. Of course, only race it if you feel up to it.

Unthought Known

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Yeah there’s a few, but in later weeks.

The short term target for me is definitely to give the race series half a good lash, so I’ll probably end up holding off on Saturday.

I'd be careful about racing the half as it's only 5 weeks out from DCM. I followed P&D last year, raced the half and PB'd by 9 minutes, then faded at DCM to miss my target by 6 minutes. Racing that represents a training block of around 10 days, according to the book, and you could risk jeopardising your main goal.

Dealerz2.0

Unthought Known wrote: »

I'd be careful about racing the half as it's only 5 weeks out from DCM. I followed P&D last year, raced the half and PB'd by 9 minutes, then faded at DCM to miss my target by 6 minutes. Racing that represents a training block of around 10 days, according to the book, and you could risk jeopardising your main goal.

Thanks for this, appreciate it. I really enjoy the race series half...but maybe I should keep the main thing the main thing.

Just reading your P&D log section, (I got a nod re parking in Swords, nice!). I’ll probably have lots of questions later when I get through it

....so what would be a good 10 mile race result time for a hopeful sub 4 DCM?