The Sub 4 Support Thread

Murph_D

carter3 wrote: »

Thanks guys. Some great advice there and I definitely think the I need to slow down the long runs up the volume and be more diligent with following a plan. I will try and get involved with next years novice group too.

No harm either in finding a structured half marathon plan and going after that first. Your 10k and 10m times suggest a sub-4 is within you but that HM time drops off a lot - a sure sign of endurance issues. I’d recommend Pfitzinger & Latter’s ‘Faster Road Racing’ or Hanson Half Marathon. Or anything really as long as you get the paces right. Good luck.

skyblue46

ewc78 wrote: »

First run back today. Stiff as a board.
Signed up for DCM 2020 on friday.
We Go Again.

I've been following this thread for a while...since you started it really. Since then many of those posting have gone on to go sub 4. What do you think is holding you back?

kulekat

Love this thread, im just after reading chunks of it after a first time 4:32 DCM with about 4 weeks of injury thrown into my training block. I was delighted with that time, did a negative split. Took my pace slow for the first half, fastest pace was from 22-32km and then a faster 2km finish.

My focus next year will be a sub 2h HM, does anyone have a link to the meno plan? I have the graduates plan and want to compare.

Many thanks!

ewc78

kulekat wrote: »

Love this thread, im just after reading chunks of it after a first time 4:32 DCM with about 4 weeks of injury thrown into my training block. I was delighted with that time, did a negative split. Took my pace slow for the first half, fastest pace was from 22-32km and then a faster 2km finish.

My focus next year will be a sub 2h HM, does anyone have a link to the meno plan? I have the graduates plan and want to compare.

Many thanks!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Iqh0HwS7Tg0CIUOs8LPvyGiPaSKI1LxP0DIV8Vuazm8/edit#gid=906928231

rovers_runner

carter3 wrote: »

Well done to everyone on their great times.

My story is I have been running for about 6 years and I have mainly done 10ks / 10ms / half’s and the dublin marathon for the last 6 years (about 50 races in total). My current level is roughly - 48min 10k / 1:25 10 mile / 1:55 half

I have always trained fairly diligently for the marathon but struggled with endurance and my experience of it is that I tend to start run walking after 17 miles and finish 4:30-5 hrs.

Ironically my best marathon was in 2018 where I had planned not to do the marathon until September and focussed on the shorter stuff. I felt sharper, ran less but faster and pb’d all distances 46/1:18/1:44.i ended up doing a couple of 20 milers after the dublin half but my mileage was generally low compared with previous years and pb’d in 4:17.

I said I’d try and break the 4 in 2019 and although my times over the shorter distances slowed I got a good block of training done, never dropping below 30 miles per week over the last 9 weeks before dublin. Unfortunately, despite setting out at 4:10 pace (came through halfway at 2:05) I was slowing badly from about 15 and decided to call it a day dropping out at 19m.

I have signed up to another attempt in 2020 and the prep starts now. I plan to focus on shorter distances until next summer and try and replicate what worked for me in 2018. i think coupling this with getting my mileage up to 40miles per week in the run in it should be enough. I feel with work I can possibly hit sub 45 / 1:15 / 1:40 but part of me thinks I should maybe focus on high volume aerobic work instead.

Has anyone had a similar experience of hitting the target paces in the shorter distances but being unable to convert it into a sub 4 and if so what did they find worked for them? Thanks

I was similar to yourself, it was in the mind for a few years until I finally got it right.

- Put in a good hard winter, plan for a half in mid spring and an early summer marathon like Limerick or Cork. Different location can help mentally.

- Get to a place in the plan where you are doing a 9/10 mile midweek to build endurance for your planned pace early in the year.

- Try to improve pbs to a level of the following :
- 5k - 22mins
- 10k - 45mins
- 10m - sub 80
- Half - 1:45

Those times will give you the confidence to run slower for longer known its not already at your limit.
You can then set out to do first half around 1:52 and still have room to tire as happens most people who are at the 4hr mark.

skyblue46

rovers_runner wrote: »

You can then set out to do first half around 1:52 and still have room to tire as happens most people who are at the 4hr mark.

What is the logic in this plan of going out at a 1:51/1:52 pace that you have mentioned a couple of times. It's madness for anyone flirting on the edges of 4 hours and even if it managed to sneak one or two under 4 hours those same runners would find the experience infinitely more pleasant if it was even paced or slightly negative.

carter3

Good advice on a hard winter and possibly should consider doing a spring full. If I don’t I will plan to hit the shorter distance times you mentioned earlier in the year.

Loving the meno plan by the way. I think if I could make 30 miles per week the norm and used to doing some of the sessions I could step up to that but it is substantially more than I have ever done before.

Feeling excited. Thanks for the advice apart from the 1.52 bit!!

skyblue46

carter3 wrote: »

Good advice on a hard winter and possibly should consider doing a spring full. If I don’t I will plan to hit the shorter distance times you mentioned earlier in the year.

Loving the meno plan by the way. I think if I could make 30 miles per week the norm and used to doing some of the sessions I could step up to that but it is substantially more than I have ever done before.

Feeling excited. Thanks for the advice apart from the 1.52 bit!!

Forget the 1:52....here's Scullions race plan

rovers_runner

skyblue46 wrote: »

What is the logic in this plan of going out at a 1:51/1:52 pace that you have mentioned a couple of times. It's madness for anyone flirting on the edges of 4 hours and even if it managed to sneak one or two under 4 hours those same runners would find the experience infinitely more pleasant if it was even paced or slightly negative.

You only go out at 1:52 when you know you are able for 1:45. 30 seconds a mile slower than you know you can race at.
It then gives you the cushion that you can run 2:05 for the second half if needed rather than having to go under two, especially if you have just barely gone out in two.
Mentally it means you can have a bad mile or a longer spell at a water station etc without panicking about correcting your splits straight away.

skyblue46

rovers_runner wrote: »

You only go out at 1:52 when you know you are able for 1:45. 30 seconds a mile slower than you know you can race at.
It then gives you the cushion that you can run 2:05 for the second half if needed rather than having to go under two, especially if you have just barely gone out in two.
Mentally it means you can have a bad mile or a longer spell at a water station etc without panicking about correcting your splits straight away.

Which is ignoring the logic that if you can run 1:45 and go out in 2 hours it will feel like a long warm up and you'll belt the second half out of it without being remotely worried about bad miles because they won't happen.

OOnegative

rovers_runner wrote: »

You only go out at 1:52 when you know you are able for 1:45. 30 seconds a mile slower than you know you can race at.
It then gives you the cushion that you can run 2:05 for the second half if needed rather than having to go under two, especially if you have just barely gone out in two.
Mentally it means you can have a bad mile or a longer spell at a water station etc without panicking about correcting your splits straight away.

Never become a coach man!

Murph_D

rovers_runner wrote: »

You only go out at 1:52 when you know you are able for 1:45. 30 seconds a mile slower than you know you can race at.
It then gives you the cushion that you can run 2:05 for the second half if needed rather than having to go under two, especially if you have just barely gone out in two.
Mentally it means you can have a bad mile or a longer spell at a water station etc without panicking about correcting your splits straight away.

1:52 / 2:07 might be a sub-4 but a 15 min positive split would feel like a fail. If you have a 1:45 half you should be targeting 3:45-3:50 anyway.

Skyblue is right - it’s a terrible way to get a sub-4. Have the confidence to run an even split. 1:59 / 1:59 gets the job done even better.

The Black Oil

carter3 wrote: »

Thanks guys. Some great advice there and I definitely think the I need to slow down the long runs up the volume and be more diligent with following a plan. I will try and get involved with next years novice group too.

Good luck. Consider starting a log. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1139

The Black Oil

sibeen99 wrote: »

Believe in your plan and trust the training. Mental preparation is as important as the physical prep.

Care to flesh this out and say what worked for you?

passinginterest

carter3 wrote: »

Thanks guys. Some great advice there and I definitely think the I need to slow down the long runs up the volume and be more diligent with following a plan. I will try and get involved with next years novice group too.

As someone who was very borderline for the sub 4 I think the slowing down was crucial. I ran 3.59, 2.01 for first half and 1.58 second half. My long runs were nearly all over 10 minutes a mile, one of the 20 miles was close to 10.40. I tried to run the last mile the quickest on all the runs over 15 miles, just to reassure myself I was buliding the endurance.

I came into the block after 4 years of very little activity and spent a full year gradually building. I didn't blow anything away over the shorter distances. Just broke 22 for 5k had a 38ish 5 mile, didn't break 50 for 10k, 1.26 for 10 mile and 1.49 for the half. Starting slow in the marathon and really trusting the endurance I'd built following the boards novices plan was what I feel got me there.

I'd tried sub 4 on my one previous attempt in 2014. I ran a 1.37 half in the build up, but I wore myself out running everything to hard, didn't build the endurance and had a really tough last 6 miles to end up missing out by 48 seconds. I was also about a stone and a half lighter on that attempt and had a good base from years of football. I'm a massive convert to the slow down to get faster approach.

ewc78

rovers_runner wrote: »

I was similar to yourself, it was in the mind for a few years until I finally got it right.

- Put in a good hard winter, plan for a half in mid spring and an early summer marathon like Limerick or Cork. Different location can help mentally.

- Get to a place in the plan where you are doing a 9/10 mile midweek to build endurance for your planned pace early in the year.

- Try to improve pbs to a level of the following :
- 5k - 22mins
- 10k - 45mins
- 10m - sub 80
- Half - 1:45

Those times will give you the confidence to run slower for longer known its not already at your limit.
You can then set out to do first half around 1:52 and still have room to tire as happens most people who are at the 4hr mark.

Interesting point about doing an early summer marathon and its something I have started to think about.
I've only ever ran Dublin so am considering a smaller Marathon for around that time. I might stay away from the other City Marathons though. I had thought of maybe doing Belfast or even heading over to Liverpool for that Marathon, especially as we would probably be crowned League Champions by then but then I thought maybe a smaller low key event might be better.

The Portumna Forest Marathon has caught my eye actually. The ultimate goal for me would still be a Sub 4 in Dublin but I think maybe a smaller Marathon like in Portumna might suit me as it wouldn't fill me with the same anxiety I get sometimes when thinking about DCM.
If I got sub 4 there it would be a great boost heading into the training block for Dublin.
I dunno I'm undecided yet.

carter3

passinginterest wrote: »

As someone who was very borderline for the sub 4 I think the slowing down was crucial. I ran 3.59, 2.01 for first half and 1.58 second half. My long runs were nearly all over 10 minutes a mile, one of the 20 miles was close to 10.40. I tried to run the last mile the quickest on all the runs over 15 miles, just to reassure myself I was buliding the endurance.

I came into the block after 4 years of very little activity and spent a full year gradually building. I didn't blow anything away over the shorter distances. Just broke 22 for 5k had a 38ish 5 mile, didn't break 50 for 10k, 1.26 for 10 mile and 1.49 for the half. Starting slow in the marathon and really trusting the endurance I'd built following the boards novices plan was what I feel got me there.

I'd tried sub 4 on my one previous attempt in 2014. I ran a 1.37 half in the build up, but I wore myself out running everything to hard, didn't build the endurance and had a really tough last 6 miles to end up missing out by 48 seconds. I was also about a stone and a half lighter on that attempt and had a good base from years of football. I'm a massive convert to the slow down to get faster approach.

Wow that’s real food for thought. 1:37 half and 1.5 stone lighter < building a strong aerobic base. Savage half time

sibeen99

The Black Oil wrote: »

Care to flesh this out and say what worked for you?

Absolutely. Small bit of background. Ran Dublin 2016 in 3:59:48, followed the novice thread under the guidance of nop. Had a few injuries and niggles but focused a lot on visualisation techniques and convincing myself I could go sub 4 and I did- just. 2017 I focused on strengthening and getting rid of niggles then trained for an Autumn marathon in 2018. During this batch of training I had pb’s at most distances and finally went sub 1:50 for a half but I ran a disastrous marathon and had a time of 4:19, I was devastated. Decided to try Manchester this year and finished just over 4hours, more disappointment after another solid block of training. However I think my confidence had been knocked by the 4:19. I couldn’t understand how I could have a much better block of training and not do it justice on the day.

Roll around Dublin 2019. I switched plans to p and d and each time I ran I told myself I was a step nearer to sub 4. For weeks before the day I would spend a few minutes every day going over the sessions I’d done and how I had no niggles and this was it. I read the mental training se ruin in The Competitive Runners Handbook and tried to take on board the advise. I have certain songs I like to sing in my head for tough parts and a mantra to compound the belief. On race day I kept focused and if I found my mind drifting off I would tell myself to stay in the moment. I enjoyed the run and felt good most of the way around. At times o felt I could push on but I wasn’t going to risk coming in over 4 hours for the sake of a few seconds or minutes.

I know they are only small things but it worked for me and while I know I had the training done I think the extra self belief and confidence in the preparation helped.

smashiner

passinginterest wrote: »

I'd tried sub 4 on my one previous attempt in 2014. I ran a 1.37 half in the build up, but I wore myself out running everything to hard, didn't build the endurance and had a really tough last 6 miles to end up missing out by 48 seconds. I was also about a stone and a half lighter on that attempt and had a good base from years of football. I'm a massive convert to the slow down to get faster approach.

Yes, I would 100% agree with passinginterest on this approach as I was 'borderline' Sub 4 going into the DCM this year, having missed the target by 8 minutes last year.

I managed to get my HM time down under 1:50 at 1:46 (1:37 is a super HM BTW ) and I too lost about a stone and a half since DCM 2018 and I also went out slow at 57 minutes for 10K, 1:59:40 for the Half, and kept it steady until 20 miles. I was at one point around 20/22 miles I was going to finish at 3:59:53 on the tracker and my wife was having knipsions that I only had 7 seconds to spare and was screaming at me to 'push it' late on in the race ....so funny......I knew what I was doing for once as I was on Roebuck Road on those damn hills at the time......:D
I was actually 'planning' to go all out once I hit Fosters Avenue and thankfully I caught the pacers (on the blue matting :eek:) and did 3:58:21.

So the key for me was to:
A good training base,10K runs and dabbled in Triathlon stuff and HM's prior to DCM training 'proper' from the 1st week in July.
Run the LSR's at 6:10 or 6:15 per KM (cos Murph_D says so :cool:)
I ran my LSR's on a hilly course, coming back uphill for the return
I ran 4 days a week. Sunday(LSR), Tuesday (8K recovery run),Wednesday and Friday (8K handy).
The session on Wednesday was typically 1K sprints x 8 or hills
I went swimming on Monday and Saturday (1K-2K sessions), great for stretching
I had one full 'rest' day on Thursday
Hit the foam roller for 5-10 minutes after every long or tough run, so important.
I didn't have to go to the physio once which is amazing as I am injury prone from footie injuries!
Had 11 weeks of 21K-32K LSR's in a row in a solid training block.
I did 32K/ 20 miles 3 times this year (all at 6:10 )
Had a Chinese take away and a bottle of red wine on Friday nights...as life is too short :rolleyes:
I did cut out all alcohol (well nearly all alcohol) for the two weeks before the DCM
A two week taper at 19K and 12K LSR's was also key to being fresh on the day.
I LISTENED to the advice dished out on this thread and stayed calm on the day.
I ran just behind the 4 hour pacers (who did an amazing job on the day) and always kept them on the horizon as a good guide as to where I was in the race.
I also wore a 4 hour pace band from the DCM expo and this helped a lot as the course was 42.5K and I didn't get caught out with the sucker punch of the last .3K wrecking my Sub 4 attempt.

So summary for me anyway was to lose a bit of weight, run the LSR's slow, get your HM time down to a comfortable sub 1:50, train on a tough course.

Still can't believe that I actually broke 4 hours after 4 DCM attempts over 6 years...:pac::D:D:D

I think that a few of my mates will be signing up to Boards in the near future as this thread and the Novices Thread (Great job Mr Guappa and mentors BTW) are a mine of information!!

Anbocmorrua

I've read through a lot of the posts here and it's all pretty inspirational so.....
.... Is it time to resurrect this thread? I'm hoping to make my marathon debut in the autumn and my goals are, in descending order of priority

1. complete the training and get to the start line in reasonable shape and injury free.
2. go under 4 hrs.
3. maybe try for 3.40-45 if the training goes really well.

Anbocmorrua

So as my autumn race hasn't been cancelled yet I am proceeding with some pre-marathon training.

I am slowly increasing my weekly distance. I was doing 30-40k a week at the
start of the year and I want to get it closer to 80k by the beginning of June when the training plan kicks in.

My biggest problem is staying fit. I'm plagued with niggles down my left leg. Most recently I lost a couple of weeks to a calf strain. I've had my left hand side checked out with a scan etc and there's nothing fundamentally wrong. So who has any good tips for staying fit througout the training?

ariana`

Anbocmorrua wrote: »

So as my autumn race hasn't been cancelled yet I am proceeding with some pre-marathon training.

I am slowly increasing my weekly distance. I was doing 30-40k a week at the
start of the year and I want to get it closer to 80k by the beginning of June when the training plan kicks in.

My biggest problem is staying fit. I'm plagued with niggles down my left leg. Most recently I lost a couple of weeks to a calf strain. I've had my left hand side checked out with a scan etc and there's nothing fundamentally wrong. So who has any good tips for staying fit througout the training?

Hmmm am i missing something here - you talk about increasing distance in one paragraph and persistent niggles in the next?

Did you have the calf strain seen too by a professional - what was the diagnosis? If there's nothing fundamentally wrong then it sounds like a muscle imbalance/weakness. Do you have a desk job by any chance? A lot of people who sit all day have weak glutes & tight hip flexors... You really need to get to the bottom of your weaknesses and work on them during this time and forget about building mileage. A good Pilates class a few times a week wouldn't be a bad place to start lacking anything more customised which may be harder to arrange in the current circumstances.

Dealerz2.0

Lots of tips on this and the novice marathon thread

easy days should be easy
get the training paces right and stick to them
don't increase the weekly mileage too quickly
stretch

Dealerz2.0

And sure as I am here I may as well post my plans:

Attempting a solo marathon Saturday and hopefully a 4 min pb to get my first sub 4 on my 4th attempt....spooky symmetry.

Anbocmorrua

ariana` wrote: »

Hmmm am i missing something here - you talk about increasing distance in one paragraph and persistent niggles in the next?

Did you have the calf strain seen too by a professional - what was the diagnosis? If there's nothing fundamentally wrong then it sounds like a muscle imbalance/weakness. Do you have a desk job by any chance? A lot of people who sit all day have weak glutes & tight hip flexors... You really need to get to the bottom of your weaknesses and work on them during this time and forget about building mileage. A good Pilates class a few times a week wouldn't be a bad place to start lacking anything more customised which may be harder to arrange in the current circumstances.

Thanks for replying. I think you might be onto something. I do have a desk job.

As long as I've been back running (5 years or so now, I'm 53) I've had minor niggles that I mostly ignore as they don't seem to get in the way that much. But last year I was training for something big, increased the training slowly (I run with a club and try to follow the coaching advice) and picked up a glute/hamstring strain that took a couple of months to sort out. That's when I went for professional advice/MRI scan etc but that was inconclusive.

This time I just sat the calf strain out. Pilates sounds like sound advice.

Casey78

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

And sure as I am here I may as well post my plans:

Attempting a solo marathon Saturday and hopefully a 4 min pb to get my first sub 4 on my 4th attempt....spooky symmetry.

Will you count it as a sub 4 PB if you get it?
Not trying to be smart just wondering.
If I've ever PB'd a distance in a solo run I've never counted it as a real PB.
Best of luck anyways, a solo Marathon isn't an easy thing to do I'd imagine.

Dealerz2.0

I certainly will count it.......cause then I can stop my marathon training madness!!!

ariana`

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

I certainly will count it.......cause then I can stop my marathon training madness!!!

Dead right too. These aren't normal circumstances so training run rules don't apply! It's more like TT anyhow. Kill it F. and pls report back.

skyblue46

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

I certainly will count it.......cause then I can stop my marathon training madness!!!

What time are you doing it at F?

ewc78

Good to see this thread started up again.
Just been keeping things going myself not doing anything major just enjoying my running again.
Been doing all my long and easy runs by RPE since Christmas rather than worrying about pace and it certainly is making running more enjoyable.
I had fallen into a trap of constantly monitoring pace and/or HR and it was starting to suck the joy out of running.
An easy run for me now could range a minute a mile in the difference from one day to the next depending on how I feel on the day.I just don't worry about it. If it feels easy I just go with it.

Been doing plenty of hill reps and stuff also but not really doing anything as regards a plan that is set in stone right now, just do what I feel like on the day.

Looking forward to getting back into Marathon training again in the summer.
Hope everyone is keeping well in these strange times we are experiencing right now.