The Sub 4 Support Thread

RayCun

theyoungchap wrote: »

Yeah I've seen that, but wouldn't it be harder to run at an increased pace on the day?

Yes, but you need to build your endurance on the long runs.
You should join the novices thread and discuss this there, it's a common question.

Ah, didn't notice there was another page of replies

RayCun

30 seconds a km is 48 seconds a mile, not far off.

The plans for absolute novices often don't have pace miles, but anything more advanced will.

Pomplamousse

Tomorrow is day 1 of the meno plan for me (starting 2 weeks early as I'll be away for 2 weeks in July and will only do easy runs then). Excited and scared:D:o

ewc78

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Tomorrow is day 1 of the meno plan for me (starting 2 weeks early as I'll be away for 2 weeks in July and will only do easy runs then). Excited and scared:D:o

I'm away first week of July and was actually thinking of using it as a rest week before I get stuck into training. Have been consistently doing 25-30 miles a week so don't think a week off will do me much harm. Will start at week 2 of meno plan.

Kellygirl

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm away first week of July and was actually thinking of using it as a rest week before I get stuck into training. Have been consistently doing 25-30 miles a week so don't think a week off will do me much harm. Will start at week 2 of meno plan.

I’m thinking the same. I’m away the week after next and not sure if I’ll squeeze any runs in. My husband needs a break from my running I think. I’lldo What I can this week and get straight down to it when I get home.

Pomplamousse

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm away first week of July and was actually thinking of using it as a rest week before I get stuck into training. Have been consistently doing 25-30 miles a week so don't think a week off will do me much harm. Will start at week 2 of meno plan.

Yeah the week of rest might even do you good, you'll come back feeling really refreshed:D I had to take 4 weeks off all exercise back in March/April due to injury, was barely even walking for some of those weeks, so I couldn't justify in my head taking any more weeks off:o

Murph_D

Kellygirl wrote: »

I have to admit I’m a bit confused or tied up in knots over the running your LSR slow. Last year when I didn’t know any better I ran all my long runs fairly close to race pace (about 30 seconds per kilometer slower maybe) and there were a few mp miles in there more by accident than anything else. I then proceeded to breeze round DCM in 4:20. This year for Cork I followed what I’d read over and over again about slowing down and did my speed work twice a week but not in my long run. I couldn’t sustain the pace on the day after mile 16 and had to majorly slow down. I blamed the heat but prob not just that.

There was a great discussion on my log about it last week and the jist of it was to include pace miles in my long run so I’m going to do that for DCM and build up the miles over the weeks.

But I’m kind of confused really as all I keep hearing is slow down in the pace runs and somehow missed the fact that I should be including pace miles.

Does everybody include pace miles?

I wouldn’t worry too much about Cork. A second marathon just seven months after your first can often end in tears due to lack of prolonged conditioning anyway. Too many variables to blame it solely on your long run pace, which was probably OK from what you describe.

The simple fact is that (relatively) slow miles are very important for building the muscular and other adaptations that allow you to run long at a sustained pace. That’s the basic adaptation that you can then build on with speed work, tempo runs, MP pace runs, etc. As you build experience, running at MP becomes a more important part of the mix (although some coaches/plans emphasize this more than others).

Any good marathon training book will give you the scientific principles behind the different kinds of run. It’s useful to understand (although not entirely necessary- many runners do fine by just following instructions well!)

Kellygirl

Murph_D wrote: »

I wouldn’t worry too much about Cork. A second marathon just seven months after your first can often end in tears due to lack of prolonged conditioning anyway. Too many variables to blame it solely on your long run pace, which was probably OK from what you describe.

The simple fact is that (relatively) slow miles are very important for building the muscular and other adaptations that allow you to run long at a sustained pace. That’s the basic adaptation that you can then build on with speed work, tempo runs, MP pace runs, etc. As you build experience, running at MP becomes a more important part of the mix (although some coaches/plans emphasize this more than others).

Any good marathon training book will give you the scientific principles behind the different kinds of run. It’s useful to understand (although not entirely necessary- many runners do fine by just following instructions well!)

Thanks Murph_D. I definitely think it will be an important part of this training cycle for me anyway.

theyoungchap

Thanks for all the advice above. I can fairly comfortably run say 6 miles at 8 minutes a mile at present. Am I being not ambitious enough for my target marathon time?

RayCun

theyoungchap wrote: »

Thanks for all the advice above. I can fairly comfortably run say 6 miles at 8 minutes a mile at present. Am I being not ambitious enough for my target marathon time?

what are your race times?

theyoungchap

RayCun wrote: »

what are your race times?

Haven't done any racing in particular. I am doing a 10 mile race on Sunday (although that is a distance I haven't done for a while), I will update after that. Just thinking that to do my LSR at 10 minutes a mile will seem very slow........but I am all ears re advice on this one.

Murph_D

theyoungchap wrote: »

Haven't done any racing in particular. I am doing a 10 mile race on Sunday (although that is a distance I haven't done for a while), I will update after that. Just thinking that to do my LSR at 10 minutes a mile will seem very slow........but I am all ears re advice on this one.

Oh - thought you posted elsewhere that you've run a marathon before? How did it go? What kind of training did you do?

theyoungchap

Murph_D wrote: »

Oh - thought you posted elsewhere that you've run a marathon before? How did it go? What kind of training did you do?

Oh sorry I thought you meant recent times!

I did the marathon twice before. I did in 4:01 in 2012, but haven't ran anything beyond a half marathon (did in 1hr 51 last December as part of recovery from a dodgy knee) since. Have done half marathons in 1hr 44 and back then was living far less healthily than I now do!

ariana`

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Tomorrow is day 1 of the meno plan for me (starting 2 weeks early as I'll be away for 2 weeks in July and will only do easy runs then). Excited and scared:D:o

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm away first week of July and was actually thinking of using it as a rest week before I get stuck into training. Have been consistently doing 25-30 miles a week so don't think a week off will do me much harm. Will start at week 2 of meno plan.

Kellygirl wrote: »

I’m thinking the same. I’m away the week after next and not sure if I’ll squeeze any runs in. My husband needs a break from my running I think. I’lldo What I can this week and get straight down to it when I get home.

I'm away for 9 days in July and it'll be pure rest. I think i need it and i really think my OH and the kids need it. The oldest kid is pretty good but the younger pair are a right handful in the nicest possible way, they are just very energetic and lacking in common sense which is probably pretty normal at 5 and just turned 3. I don't think it'd be fair to leave him with all 3 in busy campsite in a foreign country unless they're asleep and if there asleep i think i'd rather be sipping a glass on vino on the veranda

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Yeah the week of rest might even do you good, you'll come back feeling really refreshed I had to take 4 weeks off all exercise back in March/April due to injury, was barely even walking for some of those weeks, so I couldn't justify in my head taking any more weeks off:o

This is what i'm hoping for.

Murph_D wrote: »

The simple fact is that (relatively) slow miles are very important for building the muscular and other adaptations that allow you to run long at a sustained pace. That’s the basic adaptation that you can then build on with speed work, tempo runs, MP pace runs, etc. As you build experience, running at MP becomes a more important part of the mix (although some coaches/plans emphasize this more than others).

Murph_D thanks for all your input. Can i ask a question - i am planning to throw a couple of blocks of MP miles into some of my LSRs, so for example if i was to put 2 x 3m @ MP into a 12 mile run. How would i be best to structure this - 3m Easy, 3m MP, 3 Easy, 3m MP seems the obvious or would it better to have the blocks of MP closer together and closer to the end of the long run such as 4m Easy, 3m MP, 1m Easy, 3m MP, 1m Easy? I hope the question i'm asking makes sense

Murph_D

ariana` wrote: »

...Can i ask a question - i am planning to throw a couple of blocks of MP miles into some of my LSRs, so for example if i was to put 2 x 3m @ MP into a 12 mile run. How would i be best to structure this - 3m Easy, 3m MP, 3 Easy, 3m MP seems the obvious or would it better to have the blocks of MP closer together and closer to the end of the long run such as 4m Easy, 3m MP, 1m Easy, 3m MP, 1m Easy? I hope the question i'm asking makes sense

What plan are you using?

First thing I would say to someone relatively new to marathon running would be to follow the plan. If the long runs on the plan are short on MP miles, maybe switch to a plan with more MP? Or if it's the Boards plan, ask the coach for some ideas (I'm not really familiar with the plan, and you don't want to compromise other aspects).

That said, I'd say if you're set on injecting some spice into the LR, start slowly. Progression LR, maybe starting at 90 secs/mile sower than MP and building up to 30 secs slower, or even MP itself, depending on how it goes.

For most of us, a session like you mention above should always start and end with easy miles, so I'd go 2E/3M/2E/3M/2E for a 12 miler. If it's a longer run I'd favour putting the MP section(s) towards the end, to better simulate the later stages of a race where MP is more of a struggle.

ariana`

Murph_D wrote: »

What plan are you using?

First thing I would say to someone relatively new to marathon running would be to follow the plan. If the long runs on the plan are short on MP miles, maybe switch to a plan with more MP? Or if it's the Boards plan, ask the coach for some ideas (I'm not really familiar with the plan, and you don't want to compromise other aspects).

That said, I'd say if you're set on injecting some spice into the LR, start slowly. Progression LR, maybe starting at 90 secs/mile sower than MP and building up to 30 secs slower, or even MP itself, depending on how it goes.

For most of us, a session like you mention above should always start and end with easy miles, so I'd go 2E/3M/2E/3M/2E for a 12 miler. If it's a longer run I'd favour putting the MP section(s) towards the end, to better simulate the later stages of a race where MP is more of a struggle.

The million dollar question with no answer yet :cool: It seems quite difficult to find something that ticks all my boxes! Meno is too aggressive for me i think (22milers :eek:). Boards - hasn't enough MP or extra spice as you called it. Grads i really like the look of but some changes at home mean i'm not as sure i can commit to 6 days running for the next 4 months.

Thanks

Pomplamousse

ariana` wrote: »

The million dollar question with no answer yet :cool: It seems quite difficult to find something that ticks all my boxes! Meno is too aggressive for me i think (22milers :eek:). Boards - hasn't enough MP or extra spice as you called it. Grads i really like the look of but some changes at home mean i'm not as sure i can commit to 6 days running for the next 4 months.

Thanks

I'm following meno but have no intention of doing any 22 milers. 20m will be my longest. I don't think it'd be a big deal to make small changes like that. That's what I'm telling myself anyway.

ewc78

Yeah I agree. I'm not sure anyone targeting a sub 4hr needs to be doing a 22mile run in training.
If we were to do it at recommend LSR pace then that's 3hrs 40mins of running.
I only plan to run my longest LSRs for around 3 hours so 18-19miles.

skyblue46

ewc78 wrote: »

Yeah I agree. I'm not sure anyone targeting a sub 4hr needs to be doing a 22mile run in training.
If we were to do it at recommend LSR pace then that's 3hrs 40mins of running.
I only plan to run my longest LSRs for around 3 hours so 18-19miles.

I think it depends on the person. A 3:40 23 miler last year was the run that left me in no doubt I was ready for sub 4.

ariana`

skyblue46 wrote: »

I think it depends on the person. A 3:40 23 miler last year was the run that left me in no doubt I was ready for sub 4.

S if i did a 3:40 23 miler i'd be afraid that that was my race left out there on a training run. That's phenomenal well done.

eyrie

Hi again everyone, I think I'm being a bit of a goldilocks about this, but I'm still trying to settle on a plan to follow for DCM and I can't seem to find one that quite fits. I'm thinking of modifying one a bit, but at the same time I feel I have no business doing this because I don't know enough about it. The main contenders are still the meno plan and the grads intermediate plan. FWIW I'm not specifically targeting sub-4 but I don't want to mess up the novice's thread by posting about different plans to what's being followed there. DCM will be my first marathon but I've been running consistently for a little over a year, averaging 30-40 mpw and have built to low 40s recently.

I like the look of the meno plan but overall I think it's too aggressive for me, for a first marathon. I could follow it but cap the long run at 20 miles, and probably cap the midweek session at closer to 10 miles.

I also like the grads plan and really enjoyed the half marathon plan that goes with it. But while I completely get the argument behind the 3 hour max long run, for a first time marathon I think I would really need the psychological confidence of knowing I had gone a bit further than 16-17 miles. Also because my easy pace is slow my overall mileage wouldn't be very high on this plan.

I guess I'm wondering if I was to change either one slightly (by say, decreasing vs increasing mileage/long run) would I be causing other problems I haven't considered? Should I just cop on and follow a plan properly?? :pac: Would appreciate any advice from anyone who knows more about this than I do! My head is wrecked trying to work it out :rolleyes:

Huzzah!

eyrie wrote: »

Hi again everyone, I think I'm being a bit of a goldilocks about this, but I'm still trying to settle on a plan to follow for DCM and I can't seem to find one that quite fits. I'm thinking of modifying one a bit, but at the same time I feel I have no business doing this because I don't know enough about it. The main contenders are still the meno plan and the grads intermediate plan. FWIW I'm not specifically targeting sub-4 but I don't want to mess up the novice's thread by posting about different plans to what's being followed there. DCM will be my first marathon but I've been running consistently for a little over a year, averaging 30-40 mpw and have built to low 40s recently.

I like the look of the meno plan but overall I think it's too aggressive for me, for a first marathon. I could follow it but cap the long run at 20 miles, and probably cap the midweek session at closer to 10 miles.

I also like the grads plan and really enjoyed the half marathon plan that goes with it. But while I completely get the argument behind the 3 hour max long run, for a first time marathon I think I would really need the psychological confidence of knowing I had gone a bit further than 16-17 miles. Also because my easy pace is slow my overall mileage wouldn't be very high on this plan.

I guess I'm wondering if I was to change either one slightly (by say, decreasing vs increasing mileage/long run) would I be causing other problems I haven't considered? Should I just cop on and follow a plan properly?? :pac: Would appreciate any advice from anyone who knows more about this than I do! My head is wrecked trying to work it out :rolleyes:

Hopefully, someone with more experience will chime in, but there's a discussion of the Meno 22-milers here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057743907&page=32 from post #479 on. There was more discussion about the length of long runs elsewhere in the thread but I couldn't find it.

RayCun

eyrie wrote: »

I like the look of the meno plan but overall I think it's too aggressive for me, for a first marathon. I could follow it but cap the long run at 20 miles, and probably cap the midweek session at closer to 10 miles.

I can't remember the details of the meno plan, a long time since I looked at it, but those two changes should be fine.

Hedgehoggy

Can anyone advise on where I could find a link to the boards grads plan? Having trouble deciding on a plan myself at the mo and would like to check it out. Thanks in advance!

eyrie

Thanks Huzzah and RayCun. Sounds like it might be workable... I'll have a read through of those posts Huzzah, thanks!



Hedgehoggy, the grads plan is here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8

Kellygirl

eyrie wrote: »

Hi again everyone, I think I'm being a bit of a goldilocks about this, but I'm still trying to settle on a plan to follow for DCM and I can't seem to find one that quite fits. I'm thinking of modifying one a bit, but at the same time I feel I have no business doing this because I don't know enough about it. The main contenders are still the meno plan and the grads intermediate plan. FWIW I'm not specifically targeting sub-4 but I don't want to mess up the novice's thread by posting about different plans to what's being followed there. DCM will be my first marathon but I've been running consistently for a little over a year, averaging 30-40 mpw and have built to low 40s recently.

I like the look of the meno plan but overall I think it's too aggressive for me, for a first marathon. I could follow it but cap the long run at 20 miles, and probably cap the midweek session at closer to 10 miles.

I also like the grads plan and really enjoyed the half marathon plan that goes with it. But while I completely get the argument behind the 3 hour max long run, for a first time marathon I think I would really need the psychological confidence of knowing I had gone a bit further than 16-17 miles. Also because my easy pace is slow my overall mileage wouldn't be very high on this plan.

I guess I'm wondering if I was to change either one slightly (by say, decreasing vs increasing mileage/long run) would I be causing other problems I haven't considered? Should I just cop on and follow a plan properly?? :pac: Would appreciate any advice from anyone who knows more about this than I do! My head is wrecked trying to work it out :rolleyes:

Eyrie, I found this plan last night and just asked a question on my log about it earlier. It’s a step up from the boards plan in that it adds in the ‘spice’ as somebody called it earlier but not as aggressive as the others.

http://www.petewilcock.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ASICS_TRAININGPLANS_Sub-4.00.pdf

skyblue46

eyrie wrote: »

Hi again everyone, I think I'm being a bit of a goldilocks about this, but I'm still trying to settle on a plan to follow for DCM and I can't seem to find one that quite fits. I'm thinking of modifying one a bit, but at the same time I feel I have no business doing this because I don't know enough about it. The main contenders are still the meno plan and the grads intermediate plan. FWIW I'm not specifically targeting sub-4 but I don't want to mess up the novice's thread by posting about different plans to what's being followed there. DCM will be my first marathon but I've been running consistently for a little over a year, averaging 30-40 mpw and have built to low 40s recently.

I like the look of the meno plan but overall I think it's too aggressive for me, for a first marathon. I could follow it but cap the long run at 20 miles, and probably cap the midweek session at closer to 10 miles.

I also like the grads plan and really enjoyed the half marathon plan that goes with it. But while I completely get the argument behind the 3 hour max long run, for a first time marathon I think I would really need the psychological confidence of knowing I had gone a bit further than 16-17 miles. Also because my easy pace is slow my overall mileage wouldn't be very high on this plan.

I guess I'm wondering if I was to change either one slightly (by say, decreasing vs increasing mileage/long run) would I be causing other problems I haven't considered? Should I just cop on and follow a plan properly?? :pac: Would appreciate any advice from anyone who knows more about this than I do! My head is wrecked trying to work it out :rolleyes:

Just to note that you can add 30 mins very easy to 3 runs a week on the grads plan to supplement your mileage. It's in the notes on the Excel sheet. That would bring each week up by 9 miles approx and the long run up to 19/20 if you use that as one of your 3 days.

ewc78

skyblue46 wrote: »

I think it depends on the person. A 3:40 23 miler last year was the run that left me in no doubt I was ready for sub 4.

But you ran a sub 3:50 not a sub 4.
I really don't think it's necessary for someone hoping to break 4hrs to do a 22+ mile run in training.

skyblue46

ewc78 wrote: »

But you ran a sub 3:50 not a sub 4.
I really don't think it's necessary for someone hoping to break 4hrs to do a 22+ mile run in training.

Last time I checked 3:50 is sub 4:00 :pac: It was that run, a progressive one which gave me the nudge to go for lower than the 59:59

Of course you are right in that it is not necessary. It is however something that many people want to do in order to strengthen their belief.

ewc78

skyblue46 wrote: »

Last time I checked 3:50 is sub 4:00 :pac: It was that run, a progressive one which gave me the nudge to go for lower than the 59:59

Of course you are right in that it is not necessary. It is however something that many people want to do in order to strengthen their belief.

3:05 is also sub 4! I think you know what I meant!