The Sub 4 Support Thread

skyblue46

ewc78 wrote: »

3:05 is also sub 4! I think you know what I meant!

I did. But this time last year I knew of 6 people, including myself whose dream time was 3:59:59. By October we ranged from 3:45 to 3:58. To me that means we got sub 4 as hoped for. Your target and those of others on the thread may change by October, the time on the day will differ, but the advice on training between now and then equally applies. There isn't any way to tailor training to produce a 3:59

Anyway that's only sidetracking the thread. Back to the point. Some will decide not to go above 20 miles for any LSR. Others will choose to do so. As long as they are not pushing themselves too hard or taking too big a jump up from their next longest LSRs then it shouldn't do any harm while also galvanising their belief that the 26.2 is a manageable target.

ewc78

I get what your saying. I'm just looking at it from the point of someone looking at a plan like the meno plan and being turned off because there is a 22 mile run scheduled. It's important they know that at our level(sub 4 hopeful) there isn't any need to be doing a 22 mile run imo so that shouldn't stop them doing the plan and they can substitute the 22 miler for a 18- 20 miler without any negative effect training wise. That doesn't stop someone doing one or even longer if they wish or feel they can.
Anyway as you say we are getting sidetracked. I think we are both more or less on the same page but just looking at it from a different perspective!

runrun2

I think the realistic way to view it is to aim for 50 minute sub 10k and 1.50 half and if at the moment you are hovering a minute or two either side of these times and want to go for sub 4 hours then just get out there and train within the target and go for it. You have a very good chance if you put in the effort.


Do a 10k to gauge your progress by July and a half to gauge it during late August/September and if you're getting your long runs in and in about that time in your races then unless you screw up on the day you should be good to go.

eyrie

Kellygirl wrote: »

Eyrie, I found this plan last night and just asked a question on my log about it earlier. It’s a step up from the boards plan in that it adds in the ‘spice’ as somebody called it earlier but not as aggressive as the others.

http://www.petewilcock.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ASICS_TRAININGPLANS_Sub-4.00.pdf

Oh god I need to ban myself from looking at more plans!! :eek: Ha, thanks Kellygirl, actually now that you mention it I think I remember seeing a few people here mentioning following different asics plans in the past, so there's probably some logs that describe experiences of them. I think I'll try and keep it to one of the ones I mentioned (or the Boards plan with a bit added like you're thinking of actually...). I like the idea of a plan that has been well-used here so I can ask questions! :P

Murph_D

There's a danger in getting too obsessed with the plan - the object is to run sub-4, and any training block with the right mix of speed and endurance workouts should get you there. The thing is to concentrate on the most important aspects of those plans: getting out running consistently (ideally 5-6 times per week); sticking to the correct training paces for each type of run (not too fast, not too slow); and recovering properly from each workout (including the long run) with appropriate recovery pace running.

Adding or knocking off a mile or two from the odd run is perfectly fine, and even advisable, depending on how you're feeling on the day, or your thoughts/principles/philosophy about ideal LR length. Everyone does it.

Other aspects - nutrition, sleep, alcohol, cross-training, flexibility work, pilates etc etc are all good to think about too - but I'd argue they are less important for breaking 4 hours than they are for breaking say 3:30 or 3:20 (or at least that's been my experience). (Having said that, as 4 hours is a more significant barrier for women than men, perhaps these aspects are worth thinking about if you are female.)

Get the training right, and see if it translates to a 1:45ish half in the run up. If so, you're in business. (I disagree with runrun2 - I believe a 1:50 half is unlikely to translate to a sub-4 marathon.)

sibeen99

Hey guys, I’ve been reading this thread for the past while and think the advice is great. It’s alwsys good to get different opinions and ideas.

My second marathon was Dublin 2016, I followed the novices thread and scraped in just under the four hour barrier. And just to give a glimmer of hope to some, my best half marathon time is 1:51. Despite all the marathon miles I’m not one of those lucky people who run shorter distance pb’s during and after marathon training

Testosterscone

Just wanna add to Murphs post regarding plans

There is not such thing as a good or bad plan for x target. The aim of any plan should be to get you into the best shape possible. If a plan is too aggressive then you dont have to base to follow it properly. People are better dping a simple plan well rather than a complex one poorly.

Should also be noted that many plans were devised when the median times werw almost an hour quicker than they are today so those plans that have 20 milers generally are based around the view that that would be in or around 3 hour max. There is no golden rule for max miles (pretty sure i never went over 18 till i ran my first marathon as a 3 hr pacer)

runrun2

runrun2 wrote: »

I think the realistic way to view it is to aim for 50 minute sub 10k and 1.50 half and if at the moment you are hovering a minute or two either side of these times and want to go for sub 4 hours then just get out there and train within the target and go for it. You have a very good chance if you put in the effort.


Do a 10k to gauge your progress by July and a half to gauge it during late August/September and if you're getting your long runs in and in about that time in your races then unless you screw up on the day you should be good to go.

I totally reiterate what I said above.
Its very important to be open minded and positive at this stage with a whole cycle of marathon training ahead of you.
You have no reason not to be optimistic and go for the sub 4 if you are currently in the range above.
If you keep on top of your long runs, get your pace miles in then providing you dont get injured you have every reason to believe you're only going to get
faster and fitter between now and October.
Go for it!

Dont be put off by this link below that was posted earlier about Mc Millan predictions.
Everyone who does any running knows that McMillan gets too optimistic the longer the distance.
Read the actual column where people describe their experience. Learn from their errors.
Most people under 1.50 for the half who did not get under 4 hours botched it up themselves.
Take meno for example, he went out too fast in the first half and didnt finish well.


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057041858&page=6

Murph_D

runrun2 wrote: »

I totally reiterate what I said above.
Its very important to be open minded and positive at this stage with a whole cycle of marathon training ahead of you.
You have no reason not to be optimistic and go for the sub 4 if you are currently in the range above.
If you keep on top of your long runs, get your pace miles in then providing you dont get injured you have every reason to believe you're only going to get
faster and fitter between now and October.
Go for it!

Dont be put off by this link below that was posted earlier about Mc Millan predictions.
Everyone who does any running knows that McMillan gets too optimistic the longer the distance.
Read the actual column where people describe their experience. Learn from their errors.
Most people under 1.50 for the half who did not get under 4 hours botched it up themselves.
Take meno for example, he went out too fast in the first half and didnt finish well.


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057041858&page=6

Positive and open-minded by all means. Realistic too, hopefully.

With all due respect (and perhaps I’m getting sucked in) the above is somewhat contradictory. If Macmillan is over optimistic, what time should the runner you mention have targeted? If he was entitled to be positive and open-minded based on his HM time, how was it over optimistic for him to go out at 4-hour pace?

Remember also that thread relates to marathon debut times. Performances are invariably better on subsequent attempts, provided the runner has trained appropriately.

runrun2

Murph_D wrote: »

Positive and open-minded by all means. Realistic too, hopefully.

With all due respect (and perhaps I’m getting sucked in) the above is somewhat contradictory. If Macmillan is over optimistic, what time should the runner you mention have targeted? If he was entitled to be positive and open-minded based on his HM time, how was it over optimistic for him to go out at 4-hour pace?

Remember also that thread relates to marathon debut times. Performances are invariably better on subsequent attempts, provided the runner has trained appropriately.

You're totally right murph of course, dont get sucked in because I've no intention of getting sucked in myself.

Let the users make up their own mind and see theres options out there and different opinions. One size does not fit all, theres a whole marathon cycle ahead and plenty of people hovering around 1.50 who will run sub 4.

ariana`

I don't see much point in getting bogged down in HM times at this stage. The time for that was 3 months ago if one really wanted to target 1:45/1:50 or any other arbitrary number in advance of marathon training to put themselves in shouting distance of sub-4. We are all now embarking on marathon training, not half-marathon training. Yes, i expect some of us will get a HM PB in a build up race to DCM and it's promising the lower that is but it's hardly the main thing right now

I intend to train for DCM at my current fitness based on my recent race times. My 5k, 10m & HM times predict 3:46, 3:59 & 4:01 for me (don't worry i'm aware they are all optimistic). I hope come October i will be close to 4 hrs but if i'm not, i'm not.

Maybe i am not ambitious enough for this group as i'm not putting it all on the line for sub-4 but i intend to stalk ye all anyhow as i hope i won't be too far off.

The Black Oil

Just finished the 2016 grads base plan last week. I've been away from the computer, only catching up on the thread now. Starting the meno soon. I'm also a bit confused the pace of lsrs, in light of recent discussion, and whether mine are OK. I've been doing them easy, 11:37-12:02. MP is ~ 9:27. I am considering the Docklands 5k race coming up on the 28th, haven't raced that distance since Jingle Bells last year.

I'm looking forward to the meno long runs in general, including those that mix in MP. Whether I'll actually get to 22 miles, I'm not sure...that could push me to 4 hours+ and I don't see anyone doing that. I had a (x1) 20 miler in 2016 (HHN1 plan) and that took me 3:40:10 at 10:59. My slow runs last year (grads intermediate plan) were close ish to my current easy range. Conscious Murph also said about getting too obsessed with plans...

Murph_D wrote: »

I’m intrigued - how much do people on this thread really WANT to do the sub-4 thing?

It’s completely within yiz. But I think the point of this thread is to move beyond marathon plans, weather, workmates, neighbours, friends.

Sub-4 is the first milestone. Respect it and you will prevail. What happens after that is the more interesting thing.

*not the novice thread.

I improved between DCM 2016 and 2017. I can probably hit 4:10 more closely knowing certain patches I found a bit 'ugh' last year (4:11). And better than 4:10 is not impossible, if I invest in the training. Motivation - I run because my legs (and body) like it. I run to train. I train to race. I race for fun.

HankSchrader

Hey guys been a while since I posted. I did the Cork HM in 1:55 and unfortunately I knew something wasn't right after the race. Tried running a few days after and found it tough.

Ended up going to a physio, turns out I have very tight calves mainly on my right leg. Went through some good stretches (calf raises etc) and can already feel a major improvement over the past 10 days. Strongly advised not to run until next week so lost out on the first week of the Marathon Plan for DCM. Saying that I'm lucky it wasn't a week before the marathon 😀 I've been cycling to keep up the fitness but itching to get back running...

tldr: listen to your body and get those niggles looked at if they persist!!

seanin4711

HankSchrader wrote: »

Hey guys been a while since I posted. I did the Cork HM in 1:55 and unfortunately I knew something wasn't right after the race. Tried running a few days after and found it tough.

Ended up going to a physio, turns out I have very tight calves mainly on my right leg. Went through some good stretches (calf raises etc) and can already feel a major improvement over the past 10 days. Strongly advised not to run until next week so lost out on the first week of the Marathon Plan for DCM. Saying that I'm lucky it wasn't a week before the marathon �� I've been cycling to keep up the fitness but itching to get back running...

tldr: listen to your body and get those niggles looked at if they persist!!

same as you.
out for last three weeks due to (hindsight is great).

1. dyhydrated
2. lack of training for a week
3. speed session

result : calf strain that wont go away.

physio twice

ice area and let come back to RT normally,no issue there currently
hoping to get back on bike next week and do a bit of running the folloiwng week.

lesson learned

no speed work low intensity high volume 5 times a week. with some moderate interval work and thats that!

so the question is this! when and how does one start back running after such an injury?

The Black Oil

Hope things work out for you both.

Day 1 tomorrow. Let's do this.

skyblue46

seanin4711 wrote: »

no speed work low intensity high volume 5 times a week. with some moderate interval work and thats that!

I'm not sure where you separate speed work from moderate intervals but to me your checklist is the Grads plan to a tee!

ewc78

The Black Oil wrote: »

Hope things work out for you both.

Day 1 tomorrow. Let's do this.

Best of luck. I'm not starting until next Monday. Off on holiday in the morning.

judeboy101

Hey all, might as well throw my hat in the ring. I've run 4 marathons, one this year so far. Never broken 4. Currently following a sub 4 running plan, I've targeted Longford in august and dub in Oct.

RayCun

judeboy101 wrote: »

Hey all, might as well throw my hat in the ring. I've run 4 marathons, one this year so far. Never broken 4. Currently following a sub 4 running plan, I've targeted Longford in august and dub in Oct.

Which one are you targeting?
Why are you doing two marathons two months apart?

judeboy101

RayCun wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Hey all, might as well throw my hat in the ring. I've run 4 marathons, one this year so far. Never broken 4. Currently following a sub 4 running plan, I've targeted Longford in august and dub in Oct.

Which one are you targeting?
Why are you doing two marathons two months apart?

The august Longford one, its pretty flat. The Dublin one is a backup in case Longford goes tits up. Reading the thread i can see my main problem is speed, not endurance. I've tried to focus on it more this year, but i ran the royal canal marathon in apr at a flat 9 min mile and blew up at 20miles, misjudged my energy needs and took 1.5 hrs to "run" last 6 odd miles. Looking back i made so many small mistakes. I'm targeting 4:10 in Longford but hoping if weather not too warm and I'm still feeling good after roosky i might sneak home under 4.

Murph_D

judeboy101 wrote: »

The august Longford one, its pretty flat. The Dublin one is a backup in case Longford goes tits up. Reading the thread i can see my main problem is speed, not endurance. I've tried to focus on it more this year, but i ran the royal canal marathon in apr at a flat 9 min mile and blew up at 20miles, misjudged my energy needs and took 1.5 hrs to "run" last 6 odd miles. Looking back i made so many small mistakes. I'm targeting 4:10 in Longford but hoping if weather not too warm and I'm still feeling good after roosky i might sneak home under 4.

What kind of training have you been doing, and what are you going to do differently? Not sure that speed is the issue - the above suggests a lack of endurance, possibly due to running your long runs at desired marathon pace or close to it.

judeboy101

Murph_D wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

The august Longford one, its pretty flat. The Dublin one is a backup in case Longford goes tits up. Reading the thread i can see my main problem is speed, not endurance. I've tried to focus on it more this year, but i ran the royal canal marathon in apr at a flat 9 min mile and blew up at 20miles, misjudged my energy needs and took 1.5 hrs to "run" last 6 odd miles. Looking back i made so many small mistakes. I'm targeting 4:10 in Longford but hoping if weather not too warm and I'm still feeling good after roosky i might sneak home under 4.

What kind of training have you been doing, and what are you going to do differently? Not sure that speed is the issue - the above suggests a lack of endurance, possibly due to running your long runs at desired marathon pace or close to it.

https://runrepublic.ie/trainingplans/sub-4-hour-marathon-training-plan/

Finished week 9 starting week 10

AntrimGlens

So I managed it, did 3.59.49 in my first marathon on Saturday in fairly hot conditions. First 16 miles were grand floating between 8.45-8.55 min miles, but then my plantar fascia really started to give me pain as i hadn't been able to run for a fortnight before race day with it. Pace started to slow and took cramps in hamstrings at 22 and 23 miles, so lost a couple of minutes there stretching them out. Delighted to get across the line in under four hours. So given that i only started running on St Stephens day this year and ended up about eighty miles under the target plan, it certainly is achievable for people to get under the four hr mark in their first marathon, especially with a proper plan in place and miles in the legs.

ewc78

Well done!

Kellygirl

AntrimGlens wrote: »

So I managed it, did 3.59.49 in my first marathon on Saturday in fairly hot conditions. First 16 miles were grand floating between 8.45-8.55 min miles, but then my plantar fascia really started to give me pain as i hadn't been able to run for a fortnight before race day with it. Pace started to slow and took cramps in hamstrings at 22 and 23 miles, so lost a couple of minutes there stretching them out. Delighted to get across the line in under four hours. So given that i only started running on St Stephens day this year and ended up about eighty miles under the target plan, it certainly is achievable for people to get under the four hr mark in their first marathon, especially with a proper plan in place and miles in the legs.

Wow, well done.

Murph_D

judeboy101 wrote: »

https://runrepublic.ie/trainingplans/sub-4-hour-marathon-training-plan/

Finished week 9 starting week 10

How are you judging the various paces on that plan - slow, easy, fast, etc?

judeboy101

Murph_D wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

https://runrepublic.ie/trainingplans/sub-4-hour-marathon-training-plan/

Finished week 9 starting week 10

How are you judging the various paces on that plan - slow, easy, fast, etc?

Probably wrongly. Fast =8:00-8:45 min/mile, steady=8:45-9:30 min/mile and slow=9:30-10 min/mile . I ran a 4:30 and 4:15 last years no blow ups, ran 9:45 'slow' 17 miler last week, still felt i had plenty to give after it. Due to run a half marathon sub 1:50 this week so that'll test me.

ariana`

AntrimGlens wrote: »

So I managed it, did 3.59.49 in my first marathon on Saturday in fairly hot conditions. First 16 miles were grand floating between 8.45-8.55 min miles, but then my plantar fascia really started to give me pain as i hadn't been able to run for a fortnight before race day with it. Pace started to slow and took cramps in hamstrings at 22 and 23 miles, so lost a couple of minutes there stretching them out. Delighted to get across the line in under four hours. So given that i only started running on St Stephens day this year and ended up about eighty miles under the target plan, it certainly is achievable for people to get under the four hr mark in their first marathon, especially with a proper plan in place and miles in the legs.

Congratulations, great first marathon

I don't think anyone ever disputed that sub 4 is possible for a first marathon - numerous novices do it every year... But I would be inclined to say that your performance, based on the short time you've been running and the fact that you were carrying an injury, is a sign that if you trained consistently and sensibly for a significant period of time and got to a start line injury free that you'd find out that sub 4 was just the tip of the iceberg

ISOP

AntrimGlens wrote: »

So I managed it, did 3.59.49 in my first marathon on Saturday in fairly hot conditions. First 16 miles were grand floating between 8.45-8.55 min miles, but then my plantar fascia really started to give me pain as i hadn't been able to run for a fortnight before race day with it. Pace started to slow and took cramps in hamstrings at 22 and 23 miles, so lost a couple of minutes there stretching them out. Delighted to get across the line in under four hours. So given that i only started running on St Stephens day this year and ended up about eighty miles under the target plan, it certainly is achievable for people to get under the four hr mark in their first marathon, especially with a proper plan in place and miles in the legs.

well done, great job

Murph_D

judeboy101 wrote: »

Probably wrongly. Fast =8:00-8:45 min/mile, steady=8:45-9:30 min/mile and slow=9:30-10 min/mile . I ran a 4:30 and 4:15 last years no blow ups, ran 9:45 'slow' 17 miler last week, still felt i had plenty to give after it. Due to run a half marathon sub 1:50 this week so that'll test me.

I would have thought 9:50+ for slow, 9:30ish for steady. Just the way I was brought up! What does the plan say?