The Sub 4 Support Thread

judeboy101

Murph_D wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Probably wrongly. Fast =8:00-8:45 min/mile, steady=8:45-9:30 min/mile and slow=9:30-10 min/mile . I ran a 4:30 and 4:15 last years no blow ups, ran 9:45 'slow' 17 miler last week, still felt i had plenty to give after it. Due to run a half marathon sub 1:50 this week so that'll test me.

I would have thought 9:50+ for slow, 9:30ish for steady. Just the way I was brought up! What does the plan say?

It doesn't give times for fast/slow/steady etc. except it says i should be able to run a sub 50 10k and a sub 1:50 half. My best 10k is 53:10 and my best half is 1:53

Murph_D

judeboy101 wrote: »

It doesn't give times for fast/slow/steady etc. except it says i should be able to run a sub 50 10k and a sub 1:50 half. My best 10k is 53:10 and my best half is 1:53

Sounds like the wrong plan so. Problem is you are training at aspirational paces rather than based on your actual times. As a result you may not develop the required endurance because you are not really mining slowly enough to develop the adaptations you need.

judeboy101

Murph_D wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

It doesn't give times for fast/slow/steady etc. except it says i should be able to run a sub 50 10k and a sub 1:50 half. My best 10k is 53:10 and my best half is 1:53

Sounds like the wrong plan so. Problem is you are training at aspirational paces rather than based on your actual times. As a result you may not develop the required endurance because you are not really mining slowly enough to develop the adaptations you need.

Feck!. Well its prob too late to change before Longford lol.

The Black Oil

Pomplamousse wrote: »

Signed up and have decided I'll definitely follow the meno plan.
Going to start my training 2 weeks early as I'll be away for 2 weeks in July and don't fancy the session runs in the heat. Will just do easy runs for those 2 weeks.

You wrote this in May. I was going to say feel free to air mail about 10% of the heat from your holiday back to us. Think we can cancel this request. :pac:

Did the 6-10 x 800m last night. Pretty happy with it. Once you get stuck into a plan it's not as intimidating as it seems.

ewc78

I spent 6 hours walking/dragged/pushed around Thomas the Tank Engine Land yesterday with 3 kids. That must count as a form of cross training right?!!!

ewc78

I spent 6 hours walking/dragged around Thomas Land (the Tank Engine) yesterday with 3 kids. That must count as a form of cross training right?!!!

theyoungchap

Does anybody know if the 4hr pacer in the DCM runs every mile at the same pace, or do they run the first x miles at x pace, and then then next y miles at y pace, and then the end at an even slower pace, etc?
I want to mirror this in my training, hence the question.

RayCun

theyoungchap wrote: »

Does anybody know if the 4hr pacer in the DCM runs every mile at the same pace, or do they run the first x miles at x pace, and then then next y miles at y pace, and then the end at an even slower pace, etc?
I want to mirror this in my training, hence the question.

There is some variability because of uphill and downhill miles, but they plan to run the first half in 1:59:45 and the second half in 1:59:45.

ewc78

So I persume a good few of ye started Dublin Marathon training this week? How did it all go?
I'm starting tomorrow after a weeks holidays behind me where I only got in one 7km run.
I'll be starting on week 2 of the meno plan.
Here goes nothing!!

theyoungchap

ewc78 wrote: »

So I persume a good few of ye started Dublin Marathon training this week? How did it all go?
I'm starting tomorrow after a weeks holidays behind me where I only got in one 7km run.
I'll be starting on week 2 of the meno plan.
Here goes nothing!!

Week 2 finished yesterday, going well. Did 8 miles in 1:11:40. I had aimed for 9 minutes a mile so I was glad to come in at 8:57 and not be absolutely spent. I also included a hill which I think would be relatively similar to the Roebuck Road hill towards the end of the run...I presume this is a good idea?

I am aiming for a 4 hr marathon. Given I didn't come back exhausted yesterday (tired, very, exhausted no) and it was very warm, should I be aiming quicker?

Kellygirl

theyoungchap wrote: »

Week 2 finished yesterday, going well. Did 8 miles in 1:11:40. I had aimed for 9 minutes a mile so I was glad to come in at 8:57 and not be absolutely spent. I also included a hill which I think would be relatively similar to the Roebuck Road hill towards the end of the run...I presume this is a good idea?

I am aiming for a 4 hr marathon. Given I didn't come back exhausted yesterday (tired, very, exhausted no) and it was very warm, should I be aiming quicker?

Have you input any race times into a calculator to get the paces you should run your various training runs at?

Kellygirl

ewc78 wrote: »

So I persume a good few of ye started Dublin Marathon training this week? How did it all go?
I'm starting tomorrow after a weeks holidays behind me where I only got in one 7km run.
I'll be starting on week 2 of the meno plan.
Here goes nothing!!

I jumped into week 2 of the Boards plan last week - well a modified version with some extra mileage. All grand. Heat was tough so started getting out extra early and my last two runs including my lsr were at 6:30 in the morn and much easier.

Good luck with the meno plan.

theyoungchap

Kellygirl wrote: »

Have you input any race times into a calculator to get the paces you should run your various training runs at?

No not as yet, any suggestions? I had asked earlier in the thread and read a bit online and the LSR's were supposed to be 10 minutes a mile, which was way too slow for me.

I do my short runs at 7.30 for 5k, 8 minutes per mile for 5 miles say.

Kellygirl

theyoungchap wrote: »

No not as yet, any suggestions? I had asked earlier in the thread and read a bit online and the LSR's were supposed to be 10 minutes a mile, which was way too slow for me.

I do my short runs at 7.30 for 5k, 8 minutes per mile for 5 miles say.

This is the one for the Grads plan http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php and try McMillan too.

It sounds like to me you are doing them all a bit fast. I’m actually currently reading Advance Marathoning and really explains the reason well there why you need to go slower on your runs. It’s a great read. Recommended at the start of this thread. Easy runs need to be easy and hard runs hard. You could incorporate MP miles into your long run but shouldn’t all be hard. I haven’t gotten to sub 4 myself but just passing on info I’ve learned here.

Just editing to say those paces sound fast for sub 4 but I don’t know how much past sub 4 you are going either!

theyoungchap

Kellygirl wrote: »

This is the one for the Grads plan http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php and try McMillan too.

It sounds like to me you are doing them all a bit fast. I’m actually currently reading Advance Marathoning and really explains the reason well there why you need to go slower on your runs. It’s a great read. Recommended at the start of this thread. Easy runs need to be easy and hard runs hard. You could incorporate MP miles into your long run but shouldn’t all be hard. I haven’t gotten to sub 4 myself but just passing on info I’ve learned here.

Just editing to say those paces sound fast for sub 4 but I don’t know how much past sub 4 you are going either!

I'm in a bit of a catch 22 here.....do I aim higher (say, 3:45) or do I slow down a bit.....I would hate to be there on the day saying "damn I should have went quicker in the training".
I have done just over 4hr before but a good few years ago.

Kellygirl

theyoungchap wrote: »

I'm in a bit of a catch 22 here.....do I aim higher (say, 3:45) or do I slow down a bit.....I would hate to be there on the day saying "damn I should have went quicker in the training".
I have done just over 4hr before but a good few years ago.

Well how about you train to your current fitness? The calculators will tell you what your paces currently are. Do some races along the way and the paces should be getting faster then and you’ll have a better time closer to the time. From all the stuff I’ve read here and in the book I’m reading, training too fast doesn’t work as you need to train the body to have a high lactate threshold to keep you going on the day as you don’t want to accumulate too much lactate on the day. Running too fast in training builds up too much lactate and also is working on the wrong energy system in shorter run or sessions. You need to be training your aerobic system for running the marathon.

I hope I’m making sense! Just learning myself and hope I’m not spouting rubbish but it gave me more understanding. Also explains why running too slow is pointless so the calculators are a fairly good guide to get you on the straight and narrow I think. Some of the more experienced guys I’m sure can give better advice.

theyoungchap

Kellygirl wrote: »

Well how about you train to your current fitness? The calculators will tell you what your paces currently are. Do some races along the way and the paces should be getting faster then and you’ll have a better time closer to the time. From all the stuff I’ve read here and in the book I’m reading, training too fast doesn’t work as you need to train the body to have a high lactate threshold to keep you going on the day as you don’t want to accumulate too much lactate on the day. Running too fast in training builds up too much lactate and also is working on the wrong energy system in shorter run or sessions. You need to be training your aerobic system for running the marathon.

I hope I’m making sense! Just learning myself and hope I’m not spouting rubbish but it gave me more understanding. Also explains why running too slow is pointless so the calculators are a fairly good guide to get you on the straight and narrow I think. Some of the more experienced guys I’m sure can give better advice.

I'm all ears, don't worry. Having read the reviews of the book, I am afraid to change much at present because I am a little bit injury prone typically, although I am feeling better this time than others. I definitely have less pain after the LSR's. I have found a good physio which is probably helping.

Kellygirl

theyoungchap wrote: »

I'm all ears, don't worry. Having read the reviews of the book, I am afraid to change much at present because I am a little bit injury prone typically, although I am feeling better this time than others. I definitely have less pain after the LSR's. I have found a good physio which is probably helping.

I’m not following the plans in the book but they only come at the end. Before that is all the explanation and reasoning about types of training and nutrition and all sorts. It really is good.

The right physio is the job. I’ve a great one now too whereas spent a fortune on somebody useless a couple of years ago.

Murph_D

theyoungchap wrote: »

I'm in a bit of a catch 22 here.....do I aim higher (say, 3:45) or do I slow down a bit.....I would hate to be there on the day saying "damn I should have went quicker in the training".
I have done just over 4hr before but a good few years ago.

You have a recent HM of 1:51 according to your earlier posts. That certainly points towards a 4-hour target, but you won't get there doing all your runs at faster than marathon pace. Long runs should be around 10 mins/mile +

It's unlikely you will be telling yourself on the day that you should have targeted a faster time - but if it happens there is always the next one!

Testosterscone

theyoungchap wrote: »

I'm in a bit of a catch 22 here.....do I aim higher (say, 3:45) or do I slow down a bit.....I would hate to be there on the day saying "damn I should have went quicker in the training".
I have done just over 4hr before but a good few years ago.

theyoungchap wrote: »

I'm all ears, don't worry. Having read the reviews of the book, I am afraid to change much at present because I am a little bit injury prone typically, although I am feeling better this time than others. I definitely have less pain after the LSR's. I have found a good physio which is probably helping.

These generally tend to go hand in hand and is a common mistake in marathon training. Paces early on feel okay to an extent but you don't have the endurance to hold them as the mileage creeps up, all of a sudden niggles start creeping in because muscles fatigue early on in Long runs and you put undue pressure on your body with poor form. Unlike cycling or swimming more often that not your fitness won't hold you back in terms of training it's you body not being able to keep up.

Generally I would tend to have my marathon runners in around the 4hr mark around 10-10.30 pace. Might seem slow but your body can't tell the difference of about 30 sec for physiological benefits especially in those without a large aerobic background but your body will tell you if you go too hard so you tend to have nothing to gain but everything to lose from a fitness/injury perspective.

judeboy101

5 weeks out from Longford marathon did hm @ 1:55 due to due 19 miler this weekend aiming for 9:50/mile. I reckon I'm looking at a 4:10 ish full but hoping some good pacers might pull me with them.

theyoungchap

Murph_D wrote: »

It's unlikely you will be telling yourself on the day that you should have targeted a faster time - but if it happens there is always the next one!

The only problem is I think this might be my last marathon! I am possibly going to start cycling more after this I think with Mizen/Malin being my next endurance event!

Kellygirl

theyoungchap wrote: »

The only problem is I think this might be my last marathon! I am possibly going to start cycling more after this I think with Mizen/Malin being my next endurance event!

I suppose comes down to what you want most out of it then and smart training for it. If you go for 3:45 and blow up you could come in a good bit after 4 hours. If you got for 3:55 you could do it and a bit faster but much more enjoyable.

theyoungchap

Kellygirl wrote: »

I suppose comes down to what you want most out of it then and smart training for it. If you go for 3:45 and blow up you could come in a good bit after 4 hours. If you got for 3:55 you could do it and a bit faster but much more enjoyable.

That is the conundrum alright. I might stick to my 9 minute miles for now, until the distances get a bit higher, then I will see how I am feeling, if I have to I can drop down a gear....

I will do a half-marathon race and report back from that...... thanks for your help folks.

Murph_D

theyoungchap wrote: »

That is the conundrum alright. I might stick to my 9 minute miles for now, until the distances get a bit higher, then I will see how I am feeling, if I have to I can drop down a gear....

I will do a half-marathon race and report back from that...... thanks for your help folks.

Completely up to you, but if it’s going to be your last marathon, would you not consider training properly for it? The approach you are taking is almost certainly going to end in tears. Have seen it happen over and over to other runners, in my club, on boards, and elsewhere.

Good luck all the same!

theyoungchap

Murph_D wrote: »

Completely up to you, but if it’s going to be your last marathon, would you not consider training properly for it? The approach you are taking is almost certainly going to end in tears. Have seen it happen over and over to other runners, in my club, on boards, and elsewhere.

Good luck all the same!

You are probably right. I might ease off the throttle a bit.

RayCun

No-one is really going to care whether you ran a marathon in 3:49 or 3:59 (or 3:09 or 4:39), and if you are not going to keep running you won't really care yourself in a couple of years.

What you will remember of the marathon is the last 5-10 miles - you'll remember feeling strong, passing people, enjoying the experience. Or you'll remember walking, in pain, taking forever to get to the end. Choose the race strategy that gives you an experience you'll enjoy remembering.

seanin4711

missed out on first 4 weeks of BGP due to calf strain(very slow to heal).
going to start on week 5 and take it super easy.

best of luck to all!

HelenAnne

RayCun wrote: »

No-one is really going to care whether you ran a marathon in 3:49 or 3:59 (or 3:09 or 4:39), and if you are not going to keep running you won't really care yourself in a couple of years.

What you will remember of the marathon is the last 5-10 miles - you'll remember feeling strong, passing people, enjoying the experience. Or you'll remember walking, in pain, taking forever to get to the end. Choose the race strategy that gives you an experience you'll enjoy remembering.

This is SO true! My (one & only) marathon time isn't THAT bad (well, non-runners think it's not that bad ), but as Ray describes above, I had about 18-20 good miles, and then the rest was just about struggling to the finish (thinking 'Stop clapping, I'm in despair!' as all the lovely supporters cheered me on )

Because of that, I just remember the whole thing as a 'bad marathon'; I'd say if I'd run an even pace and felt strong at the end I would have had a great sense of achievement ... and maybe gone on to do more marathons!

I'd say do your long runs slow, get the time on your feet under your belt, don't worry too much about time in the marathon, just try to run comfortably and feel good in the last 8 to 10 miles. Good luck!!

Alorra

Hi All

A few random/ varying questions. I see there was a bit of chat regarding P&D a little earlier, so thought i might put this here. I have dutifully got the book and read it a few times (thanks for the recommendation) and decided to give the up to 55 miles program a crack for the DCM this year. I am a novice but decided i liked the plan so went with it.

A few things puzzle me while i read it:

1) Training by heart rate levels: ( I am sure there is a science to this)
Firstly the book by and large perscribes a suggested heart rate for each run. I have calculated the heart rates based on what i think my Max was (approx 188) and resting (approx 49) ( i have a garmin 235 with the built heart rate things so was going by those readings).

I have only used this approach a few times but found it a bit disconcerting- i was off chasing a heart rate to get my rate up (at the start, this translated into quicker than expected splits), then i was slowing down as the run was going on to keep the rate in the desired zone. Any ways it felt like it was all over the shop.

Is there a source of info that i should look to try and find out more about training via the heart rate?

I think some of the issue is, i am setting my warm up too short (1 mile), it definitely takes longer than this to get going properly so it was buzzing away on my wrist.

Is a wrist based heart rate monitor actually accruate enough?

In the end i think i have decided to just run to paces based on those calculators and see where i get to.

2) Why for the tempo runs does it say that slower runners should run to 15k pace and quicker half marthon pace. Say my best hm pace would be 7.50/ 7.55 currently. i consider my self slow - which means i should run this at 7.40 pace on Thursday night.

3) Clubs v Marthon training plan
Soooo. i have popped down to a local club a few times this year. Did not get down really due to work (other excuses) so did really get to join properly. (i will go back)

Now i am finding that say Tuesday night the plan is for a 10 miler.- it will be something speedy if i go to the club, so for the last 5- 6weeks i have just been heading out (base training for the marathon).

Is there a place to go down to the club in the middle of this? i do like the atmosphere of the clubs.

Currently moving into week 3 of the plan and enjoying it.