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Mayer Hillman on the futility of cycling

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    #32
    Alek
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Alek


    I hope you guys are good mates.


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    #33
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,592 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    OleRodrigo? never met him (that i'm aware of!)


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    #34
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,768 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    it's not the disorder which creates the greenhouse effect though.
    it's not an immutable law of physics that the more disordered the atmosphere is, that the greater the greenhouse effect will be.

    Yeah, it's just got nothing much to do with entropy.

    The Earth's mean temperature has changed quite a few times. Very notably, after the early photosynthetic organisms started releasing oxygen into the atmostphere, and after the many, many years it took to oxidise all the available ferrous material around, oxygen started building up in the atmosphere, oxidising all the atmospheric methane to carbon dioxide. Methane absorbs IR far more strongly than carbon dioxide, so the temperatures plummeted as the methane was oxidised, until the whole planet was covered in ice. I don't think methane is in any meaningful way more entropic than carbon dioxide. It's just not what causes the greenhouse effect.


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    #35
    Alek
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Alek


    I think Ford meant humanity as the main agent of entropy in this case...


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    #36
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,768 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Changing the CO2 in the atmosphere (whether it's by volcanic activity, biological activity, or industrial activity) alters the dynamic equilibrium between incident radiation and escaping radiation. It's not an entropy issue.


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    #37
    Alek
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Alek


    But its the increasing number of humans that cause carbon to disperse (via accelerating need to expend energy for food, transport, generation of goods, etc) from a solid/liquid form to CO2 in the atmosphere is, isn't it? Entropy is the works here, greenhouse effect is the result.


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    #38
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,768 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    No, it's not entropy. The cause of the increase in the mean atmospheric and oceanic temperatures is human activity, mostly emissions of carbon dioxide, but the mechanism is trapping of infra-red radiation.

    If you look up entropy and the greenhouse effect, you find mostly nonsense about the greenhouse effect contradicting the second law of thermodynamics.
    https://www.skepticalscience.com/Second-law-of-thermodynamics-greenhouse-theory.htm


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    #39
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,768 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    There are some discussions about global warming increasing entropy in the atmosphere (rather than vice versa), but it's a total sideshow anyway. It's not a helpful or insightful way to view the problem.


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    #40
    Alek
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Alek


    I stand corrected, it seems I have been using "entropy" term loosely as a synonym of some kind of general dispersion, I was not aware it is closely connected with thermodynamics. Liberal arts education takes its toll now... ;)


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    #41
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,592 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    in fact, (i say 'in fact' to inject some speculation) i would guess that by far the greatest entropy created as a result of all that coal, gas, and turf burning is due to the infrared radiation emitted directly or indirectly by it. and now radiated out into space.

    generally, linking entropy and global warming is a correlation/causation error.


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