Late Late Show April 27th

NAGDEFI

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

The fact that some people might regret it is not a valid reason to remove choice from everyone.

The fact that innocent lives are taken though is a pretty valid reason to remove the right to kill.

Martina1991

NAGDEFI wrote: »

The fact that innocent lives are taken though is a pretty valid reason to remove the right to kill.

Abortion. Happens. Every. Day.

Irish women seek abortions abroad or via illegal pills.

The 8th doesn't stop abortions from happening.

Keeping the 8th won't stop abortions from happening.
The 8th saves no one.

I don't know how many times that be repeated until you see that.

NAGDEFI

Mountainsandh wrote: »

For every Ronaldo born there could also be a criminal born to commit the most horrific crime. That kind of reasoning is nonsensical.

And your thinking reflects a belief in humankind being more evil than good and capable of doing uplifting things.

Ronaldo has brought joy to billions. It's more factual than your annonymous burglars.

NAGDEFI

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Lots of babies are born because their mother had an abortion too.

How many of us wouldn't be here if our mothers had better access to contraception? Maybe we should ban contraception?

How many children wouldn't be here if their mother's hadn't had an abortion as a teenager? My friends who had abortions in their teens would not have the lives, husband's or children they do now if they had gone through with their first pregnancy.

You can't equate contraception to abortion.

SusieBlue

NAGDEFI wrote: »

The fact that innocent lives are taken though is a pretty valid reason to remove the right to kill.

Abortion has been around since the dawn of time. It will still be around if the 8th is retained.
We are making it unsafe for women to persist in exporting the problem.

The EU commissioner for human rights has even come out and said our laws on the matter put women's health and lives in danger and recommended repeal.

The question is whether we want to regulate it and offer supervision, or if we want to stick our fingers in our ears and pretend it isn't happening.

The 8th doesn't stop abortion - it will continue to happen the way it does if its retained. And the way its happening now is putting lives at risk.

NAGDEFI

Martina1991 wrote: »

Abortion. Happens. Every. Day.

Irish women seek abortions abroad or via illegal pills.

The 8th doesn't stop abortions from happening.

Keeping the 8th won't stop abortions from happening.
The 8th saves no one.

I don't know how many times that be repeated until you see that.

Firstly that's not the point discussed with Hegon.

Secondly stop your teacherly tone. You're no intellect to be lecturing.

Yes the 8th saves lives. Embolden your text and shout hysterically all you like.

SusieBlue

NAGDEFI wrote: »

And your thinking reflects a belief in humankind being more evil than good and capable of doing uplifting things.

Ronaldo has brought joy to billions. It's more factual than your annonymous burglars.

Still not a valid reason to deny other women their own choice on the matter.

What do you propose we do, tell women seeking abortions it'll be grand, the baby might grow up to be a famous soccer player?

DickSwiveller

SusieBlue wrote: »

Still not a valid reason to deny other women their own choice on the matter.

What do you propose we do, tell women seeking abortions it'll be grand, the baby might grow up to be a famous soccer player?

Do you ever think choice should be limited? When did "choice" become such a holy grail. If I choose to punch someone in the face I'll rightly be punished from doing so.

Martina1991

NAGDEFI wrote: »

We could have lost Cristiano Ronaldo to abortion. Due to poverty, an alcoholic father. The 'bad circumstances' many refer to. Makes you think of all the talent across the spectrum that never got to draw breath.

So what? Replace the name Ronaldo with Hitler, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer and your arguemnt looks ridiculous.
Is Ronaldo more important because he's a millioanire footballer?

His mother CHOSE to continue with the pregancy, and if she decided she couldn't would you have liked to have been there beside her to tell a poverty ridden women with an alcoholic husband to bear a child?

NAGDEFI

SusieBlue wrote: »

Still not a valid reason to deny other women their own choice on the matter.

What do you propose we do, tell women seeking abortions it'll be grand, the baby might grow up to be a famous soccer player?

Counsel. Promote a culture of life rather than the existential death peddling so dear to so many here. You talk about abortion since the beginning of time. Childbirth has been present since then also. It's natural not the appoclyptic event being described here.

There are many genuinely difficult pregnancies for women and then there's selfishness.

Should we protect the unborn. Absolutely.

SusieBlue

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Do you ever think choice should be limited? When did "choice" become such a holy grail. If I choose to punch someone in the face I'll rightly be punished from doing so.

And rightly so. You'd be assaulting another citizen.

Its kind of a big choice to make though. Not exactly the same as the choice between tea or coffee, or a shower or a bath.

Its a huge responsibility. And one that should only be taken on when the parent is sure they can offer a stable childhood. If they say they can't, we should believe them.

NAGDEFI

Martina1991 wrote: »

So what? Replace the name Ronaldo with Hitler, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer and your arguemnt looks ridiculous.
Is Ronaldo more important because he's a millioanire footballer?

His mother CHOSE to continue with the pregancy, and if she decided she couldn't would you have liked to have been there beside her to tell a poverty ridden women with an alcoholic husband to bear a child?

Again a nihilistic approach to humanity which sees more bad than good.

And to really get to you, she Mrs. Ronaldo, credited God with deciding to have Cristiano. I'd hate to have your attitude towards humanity.

Long live life from the womb to the tomb.

Martina1991

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Do you ever think choice should be limited? When did "choice" become such a holy grail. If I choose to punch someone in the face I'll rightly be punished from doing so.

When every person should have the right to bodily autonomy i.e. the capacity to decide for oneself and pursue a course of action in one's life, often regardless of any particular moral content.

If my life was on the line and I needed a kidney from you, I do not have the right to demand you give it to me. You have bodily autonomy.
A person who dies cannot have their organs harvested without consent from themselves or next of kin.

You do not have the right to force a woman's body to carry a pregnancy against her will. Of course every human being should have the final say over what happens to their own bodies.

SusieBlue

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Counsel. Promote a culture of life rather than the existential death peddling so dear to so many here. You talk about abortion since the beginning of time. Childbirth has been present since then also. It's natural not the appoclyptic event being described here.

There are many genuinely difficult pregnancies for women and then there's selfishness.

Should we protect the unborn. Absolutely.

They go hand in hand. As long as women are conceiving, there will be women seeking termination.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you, and would say its MORE selfish to bring an unwanted baby into a life of poverty, neglect, mental health issues, addiction, and unstable circumstances.
And before you twist my words, I know great people come from those circumstances.
But if the mother thinks she cannot offer a baby all the things it needs to have a stable childhood, we should believe her and respect that.

And I will bring you to the point previously made, born, but at what cost? Born, but into what kind of life?
We can't just disregard the circumstances people find themselves in as if they're irrelevant when they will no doubt have a HUGE impact on the sort of life this child will have.

Martina1991

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Again a nihilistic approach to humanity which sees more bad than good.

And to really get to you, she Mrs. Ronaldo, credited God with deciding to have Cristiano. I'd hate to have your attitude towards humanity.

Long live life from the womb to the tomb.

Religon has no place within the law.

NAGDEFI

Martina1991 wrote: »

Is Ronaldo more important because he's a millioanire footballer?

The above quote shows that you haven't a clue about the seriously special abilities he has. How unique he is. And the joy and beauty he brings to life for so many. Also the charitable work he does with his money. The money isn't the point. Broaden your horizons if you think Ronaldo is just a multi million footballer.

Abortion is unnatural. A mother killing her own. Birth is natural.

And as for your argument about as many potential evil people being aborted as good. I believe in the overall goodness of humanity.

NAGDEFI

Martina1991 wrote: »

Religon has no place within the law.

No but thankfully it continues to influence many individuals.

Wrongway1985

NAGDEFI wrote: »

You can't equate contraception to abortion.

You can in terms that pro-life years ago said babies would be rare due to contraceptives being available, contraception ref passed people were still having kids gas isn't it?

Seems better contraception is the drum they are banging now, madness ted! They even suggest abortion will become method of contraception abortion (harsh realities etc aside) >€1000+, box of condoms €10 ridiculous mate!

Martina1991

NAGDEFI wrote: »

No but thankfully it continues to influence manipulates many individuals.

:rolleyes:

NAGDEFI

Martina1991 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you like. Christian teaching is a great solace to many and will be here long after you and I are gone.

Of course your thinking is more pagan, when, one in four children were sacrificed in rituals. Sounds familiar..

NAGDEFI

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

You can in terms that pro-life years ago said babies would be rare due to contraceptives being available, contraception ref passed people were still having kids gas isn't it?

Seems better contraception is the drum they are banging now, madness ted! They even suggest abortion will become method of contraception abortion (harsh realities etc aside) >€1000+, box of condoms €10 ridiculous mate!

Fairly sure the birth rate has dropped since the 1950s!!

A €1,000 is not a whole lot to sections of society nowadays if contraception doesn't work.

SusieBlue

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Roll your eyes all you like. Christian teaching is a great solace to many and will be here long after you and I are gone.

Of course your thinking is more pagan, when, one in four children were sacrificed in rituals. Sounds familiar..

Christianity and the catholic church have done more harm to the people of Ireland, particularly over the last 100 years, than we will ever be able to fully comprehend.

Some people holding the christian religion dear to their hearts is not a good reason to have their teachings inflicted on the whole country.
Most would agree that the catholic ethos does not reflect the thinking of the majority of Irish society today, thankfully.

NAGDEFI

I'm a regular contributor to this thread as a light entertainment show and have become more involved in this debate than i'd like to.

To any posters i've clashed with, this is just one issue, i hope to engage as usual on less controversial topics:)

To all i've debated with on here i wish you well and will try and look at the whole issue with more empathy.

Whatever way the vote goes on 25th will be legally binding and accepted. It's the people's vote, democracy in action. Best wishes Suzie, Martina et all. Sometimes we judge people we don't know over the internet. I'm certain you are good people of integrity.

SusieBlue

NAGDEFI wrote: »

The above quote shows that you haven't a clue about the seriously special abilities he has. How unique he is. And the joy and beauty he brings to life for so many. Also the charitable work he does with his money. The money isn't the point. Broaden your horizons if you think Ronaldo is just a multi million footballer.

Abortion is unnatural. A mother killing her own. Birth is natural.

And as for your argument about as many potential evil people being aborted as good. I believe in the overall goodness of humanity.

The fact that it worked out for him and is mother is absolutely irrelevant and of no help to another woman, as far removed from his situation as you can imagine, having a crisis pregnancy today.

Death is natural. Disease is natural. Miscarriages are natural. Natural does not equal good or positive.
It depends on the circumstances.

end of the road

amdublin wrote: »

For feks sake just trust women willya!!!

trusting women has nothing to do with this. it's a meaningless slogan so that much of the yes side can try and hide and be dishonest about what they actually want. be honest about what you want and you may get more people to come around.
the majority of people trust women, if they don't they have trust issues which voting to repeal the 8th and for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks isn't going to end. plenty of women who will be voting no as well, obviously they trust themselves and each other.
the best way to trust women is to support their right to be born and to become valued members of society, not to allow them to kill their unborn outside reasons of medical necessity where there are serious issues at stake and where it is agreed by most that abortion will be required.

#trust women, support their right to be born.

amdublin wrote: »

So if I don't think that is going to happen. And you don't think it is going to happen then what is the difference between abortion here or the UK?

The only difference is we wouldn't be making a woman already in crisis travel to the UK. Or illegally and unsafely take pills ordered online in her bedroom.

Why would we do this to our women? (Seriosu question, not rheteoical)

nobody is making women take pills off the internet. that is their decisian.
we aren't making most women travel to the uk, they are choosing to because they want to have an abortion. certain cases i'd agree otherwise such as FFA but the government had an opportunity to legislate for such cases and other medical cases only and have wider support for repeal and they went above and beyond that.

circadian wrote: »

You've asked this in another thread before and began on a windy road of nonsense off the back of it.

it's a legitimate question. why avoid it?

Martina1991

end of the road wrote: »

the best way to trust women is to support their right to be born and to become valued members of society, not to allow them to kill their unborn outside reasons of medical necessity where there are serious issues at stake and where it is agreed by most that abortion will be required.

nobody is making women take pills off the internet. that is their decisian.
we aren't making most women travel to the uk, they are choosing to because they want to have an abortion. certain cases i'd agree otherwise such as FFA but the government had an opportunity to legislate for such cases and other medical cases only and have wider support for repeal and they went above and beyond that.

Can you not see the hypocrisy in your post.

You don't want to allow women to "kill" the unborn, but you accept that women choose to have abortions in the uk or illegally.

By accepting that Irish women already have abortions and you cannot stop them, keeping the 8th does nothing. It does not stop abortions.

You are happy for women to have abortions abroad, just not in Ireland.

robarmstrong

end of the road wrote: »

trusting women has nothing to do with this. it's a meaningless slogan so that much of the yes side can try and hide and be dishonest about what they actually want. be honest about what you want and you may get more people to come around.
the majority of people trust women, if they don't they have trust issues which voting to repeal the 8th and for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks isn't going to end. plenty of women who will be voting no as well, obviously they trust themselves and each other.
the best way to trust women is to support their right to be born and to become valued members of society, not to allow them to kill their unborn outside reasons of medical necessity where there are serious issues at stake and where it is agreed by most that abortion will be required.

The best way is to trust women and not harass them into forced-birth by people who believe they're doing the right thing but instead are just forcing what they believe to be the moral thing on unfortunate women.

end of the road wrote: »

#trust women, support their right to be born.

And support them being forced to give birth.

end of the road wrote: »

nobody is making women take pills off the internet. that is their decisian.
we aren't making most women travel to the uk, they are choosing to because they want to have an abortion. certain cases i'd agree otherwise such as FFA but the government had an opportunity to legislate for such cases and other medical cases only and have wider support for repeal and they went above and beyond that.

Women take pills off their internet as a direct cast-off of the restrictions of the 8th. The 8th forces them into either seeking a termination to their pregnancy via the usage of these pills or going across the pond to the UK and get the abortion done there.

Let's use this scenario.

I want a carton of milk, shop A refuse to let me into the shop to purchase the milk. I am now forced to look elsewhere for my milk. That is the simplest scenario I could possibly think of, and if that doesn't explain that women are being made/forced into going abroad for abortions or getting the pills online then it's quite obvious you can't comprehend logic whatsoever.

end of the road

Martina1991 wrote: »

Abortion. Happens. Every. Day.

Irish women seek abortions abroad or via illegal pills.

The 8th doesn't stop abortions from happening.

Keeping the 8th won't stop abortions from happening.
The 8th saves no one.

I don't know how many times that be repeated until you see that.

lots of things happen every day. many of those things will be illegal. we won't suddenly make them legal because they happen. this should be no different.
the 8th doesn't stop abortions means nothing as every single law we have doesn't 100% stop what it was implemented to eradicate. a law doesn't have to eradicate a problem, it just has to stop a good number from engaging in an act.
i believe the 8th does stop some abortions, how many it cannot be said for definite, but i believe lots of unborn lives are saved, so i will vote no

SusieBlue wrote: »

Abortion has been around since the dawn of time. It will still be around if the 8th is retained.
We are making it unsafe for women to persist in exporting the problem.

The EU commissioner for human rights has even come out and said our laws on the matter put women's health and lives in danger and recommended repeal.

The question is whether we want to regulate it and offer supervision, or if we want to stick our fingers in our ears and pretend it isn't happening.

The 8th doesn't stop abortion - it will continue to happen the way it does if its retained. And the way its happening now is putting lives at risk.

The EU commissioner for human rights expressing an opinion means nothing. there is no human right to an abortion, it's a discretionary right implemented by some countries and not by others. keeping the 8th isn't pretending abortion isn't happening, the same as keeping any law isn't pretending the issue isn't happening, it's about saying we don't except an act in our country. that is what the 8th says, we don't except abortion in ireland except in certain circumstances and the state won't help you to procure one.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Religon has no place within the law.

agreed. however this has been nothing to do with religion since 1983. plenty of non-religious are against abortion on demand. i'm 1 for starters, have no time for religion or the cc. condemn the barbarity they met out to women and children in ireland. i still don't agree with abortion except in limited circumstances.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Can you not see the hypocrisy in your post.

You don't want to allow women to "kill" the unborn, but you accept that women choose to have abortions in the uk or illegally.

By accepting that Irish women already have abortions and you cannot stop them, keeping the 8th does nothing. It does not stop abortions.

You are happy for women to have abortions abroad, just not in Ireland.

i'm not happy about it. however the reality is that we all have a right to travel anywhere we like and for the most part, do things in other countries that are legal there but illegal here.

Martina1991

end of the road wrote: »

the 8th doesn't stop abortions means nothing as every single law we have doesn't 100% stop what it was implemented to eradicate. a law doesn't have to eradicate a problem, it just has to stop a good number from engaging in an act.

The EU commissioner for human rights expressing an opinion means nothing. there is no human right to an abortion, it's a discretionary right implemented by some countries and not by others.

plenty of non-religious are against abortion on demand. i'm 1 for starters, have no time for religion or the cc. condemn the barbarity they met out to women and children in ireland. i still don't agree with abortion except in limited circumstances.

i'm not happy about it. however the reality is that we all have a right to travel anywhere we like and for the most part, do things in other countries that are legal there but illegal here.

By your logic, why have a law against abortions in the first place, since they're happening anyway.

A law does have to erradicate a problem, thats's why its a law and not a general guideline.

There is no right to abortion, but there is a right to bodily autonomy. You cannot force a human being to drastically change their body without their consent.

You call the cc barbaric for what they have done to women and children yet you want to prolong it and side with them. Forcing a woman to bear a pregnancy is barbaric.

If you agree with abortion in limited circumstances then the 8th must be repealed in the first place.

You decision to vote no comes down to "Not in my back yard" and you own idea of morality. Personal morals should not dictate human rights.

DickSwiveller

Martina1991 wrote: »

By your logic, why have a law against abortions in the first place, since they're happening anyway.

A law does have to erradicate a problem, thats's why its a law and not a general guideline.

There is no right to abortion, but there is a right to bodily autonomy. You cannot force a human being to drastically change their body without their consent.

You call the cc barbaric for what they have done to women and children yet you want to prolong it and side with them. Forcing a woman to bear a pregnancy is barbaric.

If you agree with abortion in limited circumstances then the 8th must be repealed in the first place.

You decision to vote no comes down to "Not in my back yard" and you own idea of morality. Personal morals should not dictate human rights.

First, explain to me what human rights are and where they derive from. Second, explain where the right to bodily autonomy is spelled out. Thank you.

robarmstrong

DickSwiveller wrote: »

First, explain to me what human rights are and where they derive from. Second, explain where the right to bodily autonomy is spelled out. Thank you.

In the Republic of Ireland, bodily integrity has been recognised by the courts as an unenumerated right, protected by the general guarantee of "personal rights" contained within Article 40 of the Irish constitution. In Ryan v Attorney General it was pronounced that ""you have the right not to have your body or personhood interfered with. This means that the State may not do anything to harm your life or health. If you are in custody, you have a right not to have your health endangered while in prison".

What are human rights?
Human rights are the basic rights and freedoms that belong to every person in the world, from birth until death.

Mr E

Hey guys, looks like we've moved beyond the LLS into a debate on repealing the 8th.

Since this is TV forum, it is now off-topic. Please go to one of the dedicated threads:

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1 (After Hours)

The Repeal the 8th & Save the 8th campaigns (Politics Café)

Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution (Politics)

Thread closed.