Luas Finglas

spacetweek

To further illustrate this, I've used this website to generate a map showing 15 mins walking distance from Broombridge station. I've marked in red where someone is proposing to put an infill stop. You can see that it's really not needed at all.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437061#Comment_120437061

I see your point, but do you not see mine? You have to acknowledge that recommended stop spacing is generally accepted at 4-500m for buses and trams and 1000m for high speed lines such as a Metro.

The average spacing on the Red Line is 630m and Green Line is 650m. The proposed spacing on the Finglas extension is about 950m, with 1100m between Broombridge and St. Helena's.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437061#Comment_120437061

Here's the same map you used, but using 10minutes instead of 15. This would suggest value in the additional Luas stop, especially given the 10s of thousands of people who could live in this area with redevelopment.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437680#Comment_120437680

Most of the area served by your proposed stop is parkland with nobody living there. Redevelopment of the Dublin Industrial Estate would improve permeability and increase the area served by the BB stop.

If some trams continue to turnback at BB, many would use it regardless of if there is another station available.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437885#Comment_120437885

I believe you are underestimating just how many people could live in this area. It's 30,000. For comparison Swords / Dundalk are 39k, Navan / Bray 32k, Ennis / Kilkenny 26k.

I think it would be wise to split that demand across 2 stops, do you not?

Also, parks are extremely poorly served by public transport in general. It you don't live right next to one, the majority of people drive or simply don't go. That in itself is an argument for a stop at the park.

PhoenixParker

In terms of permeability to the industrial estate, I think adding bridges across the canal is a better solution. In particular extending the Broombridge footbridge across the canal. Then a few additional canal-estate access points as part of the redevelopment - both before and after Broombridge.

There's a lot of potential to reduce walking times that way.

The additional stop has its merits too.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438158#Comment_120438158

The Sandyford high density area has 3 Luas stops serving it and the Cherrywood high density developments have 4 Luas stops serving it.

The Dublin Industrial Estate could be much high density than either of these areas, plus access to the park for everyone on the line, so it's a reasonable argument.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438024#Comment_120438024

Well the isn't going to be anything close to 30k people living there for a long time (like 20 years). A second station isn't important now, it's something that can be added in future if required.

I don't think Tolka Valley Park will ever be a "destination" park that will be attracting people from across the city, more a local park.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438773#Comment_120438773

No reason it couldn't become a "destination" park if access was massively improved to it via a Luas stop. It is already a very scenic park.

We need to build 10s of 1000s of apartments in the city and limit car ownership. People need access to parks and green spaces without needing a car. Note there are zero green spaces North of SSG on the Green Luas line.

Zebra3

Any need for a station should be on the basis of people living nearby and not because people are too lazy to walk ten minutes to the park from Broombridge.

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440564#Comment_120440564

That isn't true. Off the top of my head. Garden of Remembrance, Mountjoy square, Blessington Basin (there is a nice little walk from there to Phibsborough and a playground as well), there is a playground at Gardiner street (not sure how green it is as I just walk by it), Kings Inn park, the Royal Canal, Tolka Valley park. They are all around a 10 minute walk max from a Luas stop. There is even a nice park right beside Cabra Luas stop, I don't know the name of it though.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440632#Comment_120440632

That's a very narrow minded and simplistic view.

The world is trying to significantly reduce the need for car ownership, yet you rubbish the idea of a public transport stop in a park, because if people are "too lazy" to walk there, they have no business being there.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440564#Comment_120440564

Honestly, you seem to be going a bit Strassenwolf* on this.

*I know, merely mentioning him is like summoning Beetlejuice, it shouldn't be done.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440753#Comment_120440753

It’s not narrow minded. What’s narrow minded is this view that we have to deliver everyone to the doorstep of facilities.

No shortage of people out there need the exercise.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440675#Comment_120440675

The parks you've mentioned are tiny. The only one of significance is Tolka Valley Park. This has space for multiple playgrounds, recreation areas, runs, walks, dog parks, tea rooms and any number of other facilities.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440984#Comment_120440984

What's narrow minded is your exclusion of families with kids and buggies, the elderly, people with mobility issues. A good public transport system shouldn't just get people to work. Access to public amenities and recreation is vital for a healthy society.

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441232#Comment_120441232

The Tolka Valley park is in the list I gave you. It's less than a 5 minute walk from Broombridge. Plus the canal green way is perfect for walks and runs. I run it all the time.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441232#Comment_120441232

I haven’t excluded any of those people from anywhere so stop lying.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440675#Comment_120440675

You left out Grangegorman, which is now a nice place to walk through, with plenty of open space.

brianc89

I find it astonishing the pushback against a Luas stop at a large park and public amenity. The park is a 500m walk from Broombridge and the recommended spacing between stops is 500m.

But no obviously it's the worst idea in the world and has absolutely zero merit. My God. You'd think this was a forum for genuine discussion of ideas.

JohnnyChimpo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442760#Comment_120442760

I haven't chimed in on this already, but I think it's pretty unnecessary right now tbh. Tolka Valley Park is, in a word, shite. At least in its current incarnation. Nobody's going there on the Luas for a picnic if they can go to Grangegorman or on to Stephen's Green instead. And almost nobody lives there at the moment that wouldnt be equally or better served by one of the currently proposed stops.

It might be useful in 15 years, at which point it'll be relatively trivial to add such a stop, so there's not much point getting het up about it on a forum now.

loyatemu

it has been discussed, the last 2 pages of this thread are a circular discussion of this stop that doesn't exist. You think it's a great idea, not everyone else does, that's a discussion and it doesn't mean it has zero merit.

When DCC publish their masterplan for the industrial estate, mayve it'll include a new Luas stop, and if it doesn't maybe you can make a submission suggesting it. Realistically TII were never going to include it in the Fingluas plan when there was no confirmation at the time that the industrial estate was going to be redeveloped.

marno21

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/238205/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440632#Comment_120440632

I completely disagree. This attitude already did a lot of harm and we see a huge gap on the Naas Road between Red Cow and Kylemore stops. BusConnect also failed to acknowledge a need of better service for many other industrial estates and business parks. Public transport shouldn't go just there where people live, but actually to where people need to go to: schools, universities, hospitals, parks, shopping centres, mountains etc etc. It's absolutely ridiculous that we don't have proper PT connections with important places where people go by car as there's no attractive alternative. You can preach as much as you like about someone being lazy. But you have to understand that to make those car users to PT users instead, we have to put a lot on the plate: lower fares, better connections, more frequent services, less crowded services, better access to information, easy to use etc. Ironically, there are way too many bus stops too close to each other. But Luas stops have gaps at places were there will be no alternatives. After BC there won't be a bus 13 meaning that people will have to work over 2 km from the Luas Red Cow. Is that easy to use? Don't forget that some people aren't able to walk such long distances. And again, I will remind, that there won't be bus alternatives at some spots.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560073#Comment_120560073

Who exactly are you suggesting is going to have to walk 2km to LUAS Red Cow post the 13 being withdrawn?

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560508#Comment_120560508

Red Cow to Parkway Business Cnetre is 2.5 km. From bus 13 it's less than 2 km. Of course, there will be a slow and zigzagy 71 bus every 30 min only! Buses are often late by over 5 min or don't show up. This would be potentially (30/2)+5 waiting time, or, if bus won't show, then (30/2)+30+5. Anything via industrial estate should be least at a 15 min frequency on peak times. 71 won't even connect with Tallaght well. That's way the majority are driving alone in their cars to the industrial estates and even some business parks which are served by Luas. Luas is not a recipe for a problem, it's just a frequent service with a high capacity. But buses can serve surrounding areas better, where Luas doesn't.

Citrus_8

Rosemount Industrial Estate is another example. People use 40D to town. With BS they will have to walk a few extra minutes (it's already 1.5 km of walking from the end of this IE to the gates) to the L62 and then change at the Blanch SC. It will be an extra 20 min of journey time. Walking from this IE gates to the L62 is going to add 450 m so nearly 2 km of walking.

I believe, there should have been made a P bus from Tyrrelstown to town for the purpose of having a connection to people who work in Tyrrelstown with the Keypoint IE and to better connect Rosemount IE to town. Damastown has a P bus. Rosemount IE only has N & L.

And I can give more examples.

Many people working at Park West Industrial Park, but there is no bus service and won't be under the BC.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561597#Comment_120561597

First of all people using lower frequency routes tend to use the timetables and RTPI, so they're not going to be waiting at stops ad nauseum as you suggest.

Surely anyone working in that business park travelling to the city would indeed use the 71, or walk across to Greenhills Road where the D2, D4 and D5 operate, with those routes being more frequent and which are a shorter walk away than the 13 inbound stop.

The 71 will terminate at the new interchange at Tallaght connecting there with every bus route in the area - that's hardly a poor connection.

Anyways this is off-topic.

LXFlyer

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that there will be large scale switching from cars to public transport for many suburban business parks, mainly because to get to many of them by public transport will still require at least one change en route for most people - that is a function of the fact that very few journeys to those business parks will have the same starting points.

People also would often have to walk significant distances from the entrance of the business parks to places of employment, and in many cases that is simply not practical.

The NTA certainly could and should have introduced some peak services to some of the business parks - the removal of the peak hour 66b services to/from Hewlett Packard in Leixlip with no replacement was ludicrous as the buses were full.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561614#Comment_120561614

In that case, surely people would take the L62 to Broombridge LUAS rather than going all the way around to Blanchardstown to get a bus to the city centre?

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120562073#Comment_120562073

I made a mistake. I meant they would take L61 to the shopping centre from the main gates of the Rosemount IE. Depending were exactly in the Rosemount IE they work. For some L62 will be too far to walk and the L61 or N4 will be the only options. For those who will work at the North gate of that estate, will indeed take L62 and Luas. However, the other problem is that these industrial estates are not linked well with the closest residential places, as mentioned, but I will no go into detail in this topic regarding as I'd mainly be talking about the buses. My main point was that Luas should have had an additional stop between Kylemore and Red Cow. And same for the new Luas Finglas extention between the Bloombridgeand the park, as suggested above.