Succession [HBO] *Spoilers*

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668875#Comment_120668875

He would have been the worlds greatest CEO.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671348#Comment_120671348

I love him! 😄

EltonJohn69

!

the rewatch has begun

Season 1 episode 2…. I did not remember this line being a call back

all the characters are roughly the same, other then Ken… Ken was very soft

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671645#Comment_120671645

Soft and stupid….

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671645#Comment_120671645

I need to re watch. Soft 🤔 What way soft?

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671708#Comment_120671708

He seems completely overwhelmed and emotionally fragile….by the end of season 4 he seemed mostly dead inside and much more capable

rtron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671645#Comment_120671645

Was ken saying that to roman or the other way round?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671733#Comment_120671733

Interesting. I see him a little differently. Season 1 he seemed all bluster and bullshít. It was an obvious facade because the insecurity was still very much present. He had no sense of his own authority and power and therefore he faltered and flailed.

At the same time though he did seem to have a resilience or a buffer of some description which protected him from complete overwhelm.

In Season 2 the wheels started to come off and his true character was slowly revealed. That awful cringey scene with Logan at the wedding where he informed L of the buyout. Then of course the waiter and everything that followed.

He was peeled open. Rudderless. Coked up. Fragile. Held together with tiny pieces of string. I imagine he had to try very very hard to even appear capable because he never actually believed he was.

That's what held him back. Never feeling good enough and even when he had power not feeling in any way powerful.

Each of us has an authority within - the ability to command attention, get things done, lead our own lives. If we don't believe it and take it and own it then we are simply not going to be 'serious people'.

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671764#Comment_120671764

Ken to Romulus

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671809#Comment_120671809

I think the events of 4 seasons had moulded Ken into “a serious person” by the end of season 4. I think that’s the tragedy, that he was now ready to be the King, only to have it snatched from at the last moment from a manoeuvre he could not have anticipated because it was insane…it didn’t make any sense. Shiv had expected him to fail at living plus but he didn’t, he was able to stand toe to toe with Matheson at the party…he was ready…

eagle eye

I think it's laughable to see people saying Tom won. He's just Matsson's puppet with no guarantee how long he'll have a job. He's being used, how anyone calls that a win I don't know.

As said above Geri is a winner, completely forgot about her.

On Kendall, he didn't make many mistakes but when he did they were massive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672257#Comment_120672257

Tom would have felt that he won. We can see that he is being used but he knows this. It suits him.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672282#Comment_120672282

It doesn't matter what Tom thinks. This is people looking on and claiming he won. I just don't understand how anyone can come to that conclusion.

deisedude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672326#Comment_120672326

Tom clearly is a winner. His entire modus operandi throughout the show has been to climb the ladder by any means possible and now he is at the very top

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672345#Comment_120672345

He is king of the castle. He has married the daughter the other two brothers are broken. He now owns Greg. He has money, he has power and he owns Shiv and Greg. Big winner.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672345#Comment_120672345

He's just a puppet for Madsson with no guarantee that his job will last any longer than when Madsson builds his relationships with the political parties.

He's not a winner, just a donkey put in a position as a puppet. The fact he's still in a relationship with Shiv makes his position ever more untenable.

There's plenty of clear winners but he's not one of them.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672403#Comment_120672403

Some people are happy being puppets.

While we know he's a puppet, the average American probably won't. He will be front page news. He is likely to be a name everybody in America knows for a brief period of time. He is briefly famous. That is what he wanted.

He also has an incredible opportunity. He could be CEO of Waystar for a year or it could be 10 years. If he leaves, he's now on the CEO circuit.

I don't know how anyone views Tom as anything other then a win

You also still have no addressed how he stated he wanted to be CEO in Logan's apartment and now he is. It appears you just want to be contraversial.

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672257#Comment_120672257

People define “ winning “ in their own way, relative to his ability, Tom absolutely won, the overriding narrative is that none of the children were fit to lace Logan’s boots, even Matson would have been eaten alive by a healthy Logan

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672326#Comment_120672326

you thought the preaching champagne socialist ( Ewan ) was the best one to grab power, forgive me for viewing you as “a weak monarch” to quote Gerri a number of episodes ago

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672326#Comment_120672326

It's a matter of opinion really and how Tom's story and ending is perceived. What would him winning look like for you?

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672403#Comment_120672403

None of them ever had any guarantee their job would last longer than at any point the board would vote them out. Logan faced a vote of no confidence in Season 1, was going to be forced out by the board after the hearings at the end of season 2, and Kendall was trying to force him out during most of season 3 with public pressure and the FBI investigation.

As for being Matsson's puppet, yeah, for big stuff sure. But the day-to-to running of the company is Tom. We even see that with Tom making the decision about keeping on Gerri and Carolina on.

Tom will do well for Matsson purely for those reasons. He'll do what Matsson wants with little fuss or arguing, and he'll run the company well on the day-to-day stuff Matsson's not interested in.

Arghus

Tom is viewed as having won because at the end of the show he's the new CEO - while the siblings have been forced out. It's pretty clear cut.

Yeah, sure, he's got a new master. But he's always been somebody's lackey throughout the show. And it's clear that he's okay with the new arrangement - he even expects it. CEO of the organisation is realistically the absolute best outcome he could have got: because he can't actually own the company.

He clearly wanted the position, in the bathroom when he confronts Greg he says, "I was this close" and he's been scheming to get the deal done because the end result means his installation in the position that would represent the pinnacle of his corporate ladder climbing throughout the entire series.

And, aside from business, the deal going through changes the dynamic between him and Shiv. Tom has always been subservient to her and the other Roys, even if he was much more forthright as the show went on - but it was always the case that Shiv fundamentally had more power because of it being her father's/family company. They were seriously considering sending him to prison at one point - and he was seriously considering going, because they held the whip hand and everybody knew it.

But that final scene between the two of them in the limo tells you everything about the new balance of power. He lays out his hand, regally, and Shiv eventually takes his. It's not stated, but it's abundantly clear that you are supposed to take from that he's essentially in charge in terms of power in their relationship. That, more than anything about business, is indicative of why he's "won": he managed to best and oust all of the Roys and has even got back together with his estranged wife, who now has no influence in her father's former company, where he's the CEO, which is exactly where he wanted to be and would have been beyond his wildest dreams for most of the show's run.

The Black Oil

Someone created this, to contrast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvMR1YOJJfE

suvigirl

Literally started watching this about 6 weeks ago, so had the pleasure of the whole 4 series altogether. I'd nearly start again and watch it all over.

For me the ending was perfect, Noone needs to know anything about these people beyond what happened.

Now what to watch 😭

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672762#Comment_120672762

If Ewan had grabbed power it would show that the family weren't anything like Logan but his brother had the same genes. It would have been a case of him wanting to protect his brother's legacy despite detesting his business style. The speech at the funeral would have backed that move.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120673061#Comment_120673061

As far as the business was concerned Matsson was the winner. As said above it would never have happened with Logan alive. Mattson got everything he wanted including Tom as his puppet.

I just don't understand how a character who was a buffoon since early on in the show and who only got the job to be ordered around and have no input in decision making is considered a winner. As I said earlier his job isn't guaranteed for any length. Firstly Mattson needs to build relationships with the political parties and has a US CEO to help with that, so as soon as that is done he's likely kicked to the curb, especially since he's in a relationship with Shiv.

It's a short term job so how that's viewed as a win is confusing to me.

For Tom to be a winner I think he'd have to force Mattson to give him the job, dump Shiv and have a new woman on his arm.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674310#Comment_120674310

Tom is the Mattson's puppet but he is the master in terms of his underlings.

He'll be carrying out Mattson's orders, but he doesn't care what those orders are. There's a lot more people below him than above him.

And with this on his CV, even if Matsson gets rid of him... he'll be on the CEO \ board circuit unless he really screws up.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674281#Comment_120674281

He doesn't care about his brother's legacy though. He hates ATN and everything it stands for. He voted out of loyalty to his brother when he was alive, and his speech at the funeral was about how he hated his brother's actions and the effect he had on the world, but still loved him as a brother and ultimately he was a complicated guy due to their upbringing.

You were suggesting he'd grab power and put Greg in charge. He also isn't like his brother because they led completely different lives. Logan grew up thinking he was responsible for their sister's death. Plus Ewan fought in Vietnam, whereas Logan bought medals from veterans which annoyed Ewan.

They're completely different people, genes or not. Ewan suddenly pulling a power move in the final episode would have been absolutely ridiculous, contrary to everything we know about the character, and a shocking twist for the sake of it rather than it making sense. It wasn't about him. The failure of Shiv, Kendall and Roman to keep the company and none of them being Logan's successor had to come from them, from their failures. Not some sudden out-of-character reveal from someone who was never even in the running to be Logan's successor.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674310#Comment_120674310

Tom is a winner because now he is CEO, he can forever be CEO of another company. And he is also getting the child he wanted and he has the power in the relationship with Shiv.

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674281#Comment_120674281

Seriously, are you Connor?

growleaves

Further thoughts...

In the finale Kendall putting his feet up on the desk, making jokes, calling Stewy "dude" and giving him a Chairmanship showed he hadn't really changed all his flaws from S1.

In the first episode of S1, Kendall was calling the Vaulter guy "dude" and this unprofessional way of speaking hurt his position. In the third episode of S1 is Kendall is first outplayed by Stewy. He sells Stewy a large chunk of the company in the belief that Stewy is doing him a favour and not knowing he is Sandy's man on the inside.

Then in the finale he gifts Stewy a huge concession, treating him just like his loyal crony - which he hasn't been really.

One of the biggest changes to Kendall by S4 is how he has become such an impressive public speaker - at the investor conference presentation and at the funeral. But then in the final board meeting he smugly says "we have the votes" and declines to make any sort of speech to reaffirm his position. He could have talked for 10 minutes and given a strong rationale for keeping the firm in the family, Mattson's erratic unsuitability etc. Even Frank's brief one-sentence declaration that accepting the deal is the "right thing to do" is more emphatic.

Shiv sees all this. She may have also noticed the fresh blood on Roman's forehead and correctly guessed Kendall's responsibility.

Then of course the kids are terrible negotiators in general.

Mattson doesn't want to have to deal with Roman and Kendall so he winds them up on the mountainside. That is why he is happy when Roman explodes with emotion. Kendall doesn't react in the moment but he is disturbed and off-balance afterwards. Mattson tries again with his inflammatory live tweet but Kendall doesn't over-react that time.

Mattson gets helps from Shiv without guaranteeing anything in return. He flatters her by making her feel important. Mencken gets help from Roman and Kendall without guaranteeing anything in return, and then laughs at them.

Would Stewy, Mattson and Mencken have been able to play Logan like this? The question answers itself.

Also a mistake made by Hugo is how rude he has been to Tom in previous exchanges when Tom had less importance in the organisation, not seeing that that could change.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675162#Comment_120675162

Are you the Muppet puppet Tom?

nachouser

Man, I just wish I could be as big a loser as Tom in my own career.

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676460#Comment_120676460

no , I’m Colin , I’ve a lot of valuable secrets

Full_Circle_81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674310#Comment_120674310

I think you're having a lot of fun winding people up on this thread!

Tom may have been a grovelling lapdog to whoever was above him in the food chain (Logan in particular), but when it came to his actual job, he was anything but a buffoon. In fact, he seemed quite competent at his job and was able to give orders with the best of them, sane and calculated orders that weren't affected by wild emotion (unlike all of the Roy children).

The show was called Succession, as in "who will take over as CEO from Logan" and the answer was Tom, so he in effect came out on top. While he may have been as viciously self-serving as the rest of the clan, he is a far more rational choice as head of the company, a safe pair of hands that Matsson can leave in charge to run the day to day. And while he may be Matssons "puppet", all the other old cronies cosied up to him straight away at the end, knowing if they didn't they could quickly face the chopping block.

Bacchus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120673830#Comment_120673830

Same... well about 8 weeks ago. When I heard all the buzz on the radio about the new season, my wife and I sat down and started watching. Just finished it last night. What a show, up there with the best and I think it went out at the right time, while it was still perfect. What a bittersweet ending they nailed. Tom was probably the most decent person in the inner circle. They were all backstabbers and would flip sides in an instant if the wind changed direction so he was no different to the Roys, but he at least seemed like a decent enough person so I'm happy he came out on top in the end. I thought briefly that Matsson warming to Greg might have spun a surprise ending but that would have been too much of a stretch. That ending was brutal though from the siblings POV... Ken denied at the final hurdle AGAIN. His relationship with Shiv and Rome would appear completely in tatters from that. That final scene in the park was of a broken man. He was a knob but still feel for him a bit. Despite all his billions, he has nothing, no family, no purpose. Rome came out well from it too. He wasn't cut for it so taking the money and being free was the best outcome for him. Shiv then feels like she's now trapped by her own desire to be close to power and to her Dad's company, so she is tied to Tom and he now holds the power. Loved all the immediate power grabbing around the board and the secondary players as Tom became the new CEO too. Business as usual for them :)

Bacchus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676222#Comment_120676222

The bit there in the middle about the kids being terrible negotiators is bang on. Not just negotiators, but terrible business people. It's almost as though they each had a piece of the puzzle to make one great CEO. Shiv can play the politics and keep a level head but she can't see the long game and got walked over multiple times. Rome has the aggression and decisiveness, and seems to have decent ideas but just can't execute. While Ken is the most natural leader of them all and can play a long game but he's so hung up on emulating Logan or being better that he just overcooks everything and implodes. Rome was right when he said Logan never wanted any of them to take over. He ran his business for decades and he wanted to walk away with his big pile of f*cking cash at the end of it. The kids were just pawns on the board.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681397#Comment_120681397

Yeah. Roman was a decent people-person and could make deals, particularly with some of the more "colourful" new breed to businesspeople/politicians, but he wasn't suited to the full CEO role. Shiv always thought she was smarter than she was and could make some deals, but always failed to see the long game. Kendall could have his moments, but was ultimately too immature and was raised believing he would be CEO and should be CEO, without actually being good enough to be CEO.

I think Logan did want one of his kids to take over, but by the end of Season 3 realised none of them would ever be suited to it. The three of them combined had the skills, but being raised by Logan also meant they could never truly work together or cede power to each other.

They each inherited some of Logan's skills, but being raised by Logan and constantly fighting and desperately trying to win his approval/favour gave them all significant flaws that made them unsuited to be CEO.

FortuneChip

Only got around to watching the finale last night.

Excellent finale. A fitting end for all the Roy's. When it came down to it, they all showed themselves incapable of being serious people.

I love Shiv. She's just brilliant. Tom chided her for mocking him in front of everyone at the tailgate. She kept joking about him losing his job etc. Here, believing she's Mattson's go-to person for CEO, continues to emasculate Tom, saying he'd just suck the biggest D in the room to stay in the game. Completely oblivious to Mattson's desire to have exactly that kind of person as CEO.

I mean, this is the guy that took pride in tasting his own load just for the experience. Of course, he'd do it again for status and money!

On the Roy's, they're all ultimately awful, self-entitled clowns. You do feel sympathy for them to an extent - they obviously had an awful father in that Kendall's whole life's purpose seemed to hang on to probably the one positive thing he was ever told, and he heard it when he was seven. Rome's "beheaviour" shows how he was possibly treated growing up, developing all sorts of complexes. Shiv just seemed to develop an air of elitism, which wasn't checked appropriately. Logan and Ewan grew up in hardship, with very little. These three grew up with every material good imagineable and never had to develop a backbone.

Tom won. He wanted status, having a family and money. He's got them all. Is he going to be "happy"? Who knows; wanting something and having something can elicient different feelings.

He's definitely not going to mind being Mattson's dog. He was never unhappy being subserviant, he showed Logan a lot of compassion - out of faith in reward, or just out of reverence. He's the top dog now working for someone who might pull some of the big strings, but probably little else.

Greg comes away from it all ok. That everyone knows he pulled a Judas, and he's still there shows he's safe. Even if it gets knocked down from his 200k salary!

Anyway, super final season. The clues were there, but with some many red herrings it wasn't always easy to see which ones were true. Just delighted how it all wrapped up.

Really looking forward to the Golden Parachutes spin-off.

EltonJohn69

Re watching season 1 and they completely over use the theme tune, it’s played constantly in between scenes.

DrZeuss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683611#Comment_120683611

Its a hell of a theme tune though, might have to hit up Youtube for the next few Mondays to have a little listen to it!

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683611#Comment_120683611

Don't see how that's a bad thing. Love the music on the show and it got better as the season's progressed as the writer adapted the theme for different scenes.

It's the only show where I don't skip the intro, love the music and the opening credits.

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685205#Comment_120685205

there is a big contrast between how it was used in the first and later seasons. the full theme starts playing in between scenes multiple times per episode. and its not variations of the theme using different melodys or instrumentaion, full theme tune with sleigh bells and sub bass. Imagine the sopranos theme started playing a couple of times per episode or the law and order theme did the same...

Seemed like a big mistake to make in such a sophisticated show. They corrected it anyway.

rtron

The thing about Tom is although he was in Karl's eyes a blundering idiot (can't remember how he bluntly phrased it), he was there always working and well capable.

He worked his way into Logans inner circle even through the rough patch with Shiv. Logan helped him with lawyers for their separation...

Logan was also going to fire Gerri, again he would have dropped Tom in a nutshell if he was as useless as the others thought and separating from his daughter

Every CEO has to start somewhere even if it's as a puppet. (Seen it happen in my own work place with MDs with companies changing hands).

Talks of Ewan taking over is nonsense, he was the bitter brother who was jealous or felt left behind by his more successful sibling.

Comic Book Guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685205#Comment_120685205

What was with the intro piece being slightly distorted throughout Series 4?

EltonJohn69

Rewatching season 1 and Ken didn’t actually murder anyone, that kid did it to himself, it was his fault. So Ken wasn’t actually lying at the end of season 4 when he said he made it up.

lmahoney79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690880#Comment_120690880

Well he was lying because he claimed he wasn't even in the car with him. Also, they told Ken that he could've saved him if he went back to free him, but he abandoned him and left him for dead.

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690899#Comment_120690899

I did not remember that part, but I don’t think he was responsible, that kid grab the wheel and steered the car into the lake.

Penn

If I remember right, wasn't Kendall high/drunk while driving, and the waiter yanked the steering wheel because Kendall was about to hit something?

Kendall was definitely ultimately responsible for the waiter's death. It was essentially an accident, but one that was caused by Kendall's actions. But as for what he said to Shiv and Roman while trying to deny it, they knew he was either lying to them to try make sure they'd vote against the deal, or that he lied to them previously about the accident which was a big moment in the three of them coming together to try stop Logan being able to sell to Matsson (which they ultimately failed at but destroyed their relationship with Logan).

So either way, they knew Kendall had lied to them and he couldn't be trusted.

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691017#Comment_120691017

The waiter was high on Ket and overreacted to a deer that Ken would have hit, Ken had had a drink and puff on the waiters joint.

The waiter was outside smoking joint, which alerted Ken to the possibility of getting coke, because Logan had him fired. Also greg told Ken about the waiter, a lot of people had indirect responsibility for the waiters death. An accident I don’t think Ken was to blame…. Though probably in the eyes of the law he does, driving in a foreign country ? Might have been intoxicated ?

Though that waiter was smashing line of ket in his own car and was probably planning on driving.