8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

JP Liz V1

Some side we on road to Ed Sheeran concert in Cork last night, wasn't bothered to listen was it yes or no, tbh sick of posters and hearing about it at this stage

AnneFrank

mohawk wrote: »

The silent No voters interest me I have to say. if you feel that you are doing the right thing why not say it?

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

gmisk

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

To be honest, I don't even notice the posters anymore. I'm immune to them. I think there are very few people who don't know which way they will vote. I've always been repeal and the posters make not a jot of difference to me. There will be No voters and the posters make not a jot of difference to them.

The poll results of undecideds are not necessarily undecided, they just don't want to tell a stranger which way they want to vote.

I live in rural Ireland and I discuss this all the time - most are in full agreement that the amendment must go - now they could be agreeing with me for peace but most people I speak to under 60 are voting Repeal.

Are you swayed by a poster?

I am not swayed by posters etc but it doesn't mean other people aren't.

I would be very disappointed if it was a no

It wasnt me123

sabat wrote: »

How many septic tank baby dumpers are voting in the referendum? How many nice old ladies that are liked and respected by their families and communities? Your post just proved my point.

Well you missed my point totally. The whole catholic clergy is tinged by Tuam and the 800 babies found in a septic tank. Absolutely disgusting, and these are the ones we know about.

Even little old ladies are not immune to the hypocracy of the catholic church (I work in a nursing home). They are indoctrinated to say their prayers and the rosary but they aren't all dotty.

They have an opinion and it doesn't always agree with the catholic church. And yes they are respected by their families and if they voice a Yes opinion, their families may take note. That works both ways.

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

This isn’t the first time you’ve made a dismissive comment regarding age.
Someone being younger than you does not mean their opinion is worthless and not worth listening to.
‘Idealistic millenails’ - and you wonder why you get people’s backs up on this thread? Give me a break.

AnneFrank

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

Your a bit young to go with the auld fella gob****e routine surely, also do you think your own kids are as stupid if they disagree with you?

BabysCoffee

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

What age do you think we all are on here?

AnneFrank

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

You mean the people that this will actually affect?

crustybla

My 12 year old comes out with some stonkers. My favourite at the moment is 'what's with these posters? Do they think people are stupid? Next they'll be telling us the baby practices yoga in the womb at 9 weeks.' Out of the mouth of babes...

thee glitz

thee glitz wrote: »

Well here you're debating people who'll sell repealing to you for reasons you may well already agree with, but also won't consider accommodating same unless abortion is unrestricted.

And some pro lifers who just don't want it period, and others who try to dress it up nicely, but still don't want it period.

applehunter

crustybla wrote: »

Pro birthers out in force in Waterford today. My car is in the garage for a couple of days so I got a lift to work from my dad. We were driving down the quay, amazed at the amount of them and one standing on the island in the centre of the road holding out leaflets to passing cars. My dad (ancient pensioner that he is) slowed down, put down his window and yelled 'vote yes!' over and over at the top of his voice. I love him so much!

What a courageous man.

iguana

AnneFrank wrote: »

I assume they don't want to be spoken down to by idealistic millenials a fraction of their age.People at different stages of life have different opinions

I'm a solid Gen Xer and the partner I canvassed with last week was definitely a Baby Boomer. Are the imaginary people you are speaking for ok with us? And what about the iGen adults who were also on our canvassing team? Are they ok? Is it just people in their mid/late 20s and 30s that these imaginary undecideds have an issue with and iGen adults in their late teens and early twenties are cool?

Because you know that Millennials aren't actually that young any more right? They are actually well into their adult lives and many are only able to get canvassing in the evenings after helping their kids with their homework. Or did your pull the word Millennial out of you cliche ridden 'derogatory things to say about people younger than me' folder?

applehunter

applehunter wrote: »

What a courageous man.

Thanks again for another informative and enlightening post.
You bring so much to the discussion every time.

threescompany

AnneFrank wrote: »

That's many peoples stance beef, mine included

Me too.....
I was undecided initially but when it became unrestricted I decided, I will be voting no as i could never vote for unrestricted abortion.

applehunter

applehunter wrote: »

What a courageous man.

Well I've had No campaigners shout out of a car window at me for wearing a Yes badge, so you can get off your high horse.

SusieBlue

Flying Fox wrote: »

Well I've had No campaigners shout out of a car window at me for wearing a Yes badge, so you can get off your high horse.

I was screamed at by an old man, who then followed me half way down the road cursing at me, for simply wearing my Repeal jumper.
Wasn’t canvassing or anything was minding my own business.
Classy people.

threescompany

threescompany wrote: »

Me too.....
I was undecided initially but when it became unrestricted I decided, I will be voting no as i could never vote for unrestricted abortion.

12 weeks is not unrestricted, and it is the only practical way to allow for cases of rape. It is also the norm across Europe. Our current laws put us in the company of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

BoJack Horseman

threescompany wrote: »

Me too.....
I was undecided initially but when it became unrestricted I decided, I will be voting no as i could never vote for unrestricted abortion.

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

I think the referendum will be defeated very narrowly.

This was explored by the Citizen's Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee. A lot of members of both groups would likely have felt the same as you, but having heard the medical and legal evidence they came to the conclusion that access up to 12 weeks is the only practical solution.

How would you suggest legislating for rape cases? Rape is not only notoriously difficult to prove, but the legal process takes many months if not years.

A foetus in early pregnancy is not a baby, it has the potential to become one.

It wasnt me123

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

........................
Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

IMO no chance. I live in the country, we are not all uninformed culchies. We are well able to look at what the medical experts say and make our own decision. And you saying your family and friends are all voting the same way doesn't mean we all are.

This will be repealed, body autonomy for all.

PhoenixParker

threescompany wrote: »

Me too.....
I was undecided initially but when it became unrestricted I decided, I will be voting no as i could never vote for unrestricted abortion.

There has never been a case prosecuting the import of abortion pills and I have seen no one genuinely suggesting that such cases should be prosecuted. Essentially the current situation is unrestricted abortion.

The new proposal to allow abortion up to 12 weeks is by contrast is restricted.

As other's have noted it's restricted to a max weeks gestation, 12 weeks(max 8 weeks of knowing you're pregnant)

It also requires the approval and sign off of a doctor to prescribe the pills and a waiting period of three days.

That allows for very important checks, for instance the doctor can step in and offer counselling or assistance to a woman who is being pressured into an abortion or is uncertain about whether it is actually what she needs.

None of those restrictions or routes to support and assistance apply when people are illegally importing abortion pills or travelling to the UK.

I've heard several on the no side talk about needing to offer other better solutions to women looking for abortion.

If they have to talk to their doctor in Ireland, then there's no better opportunity to offer those other and better solutions.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

Even if it was just the provisos as you mention, which are included in the current free for all as you see it, there would still be the same people on here claiming all sorts of BS against them.

AnneFrank

Flying Fox wrote: »

This was explored by the Citizen's Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee. A lot of members of both groups would likely have felt the same as you, but having heard the medical and legal evidence they came to the conclusion that access up to 12 weeks is the only practical solution.

How would you suggest legislating for rape cases? Rape is not only notoriously difficult to prove, but the legal process takes many months if not years.

A foetus in early pregnancy is not a baby, it has the potential to become one.

A 12 week old foetus in the womb is not a clump of cells or an idea of a child that is spoken about here, to lots of people it's a child.

It wasnt me123

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

IMO no chance. I live in the country, we are not all uninformed culchies. We are well able to look at what the medical experts say and make our own decision. And you saying your family and friends are all voting the same way doesn't mean we all are.

This will be repealed, body autonomy for all.

I really hope you're right. I'm in Dublin and conscious I may be in a bit of a bubble, so I find it interesting to hear how its looking in rural areas.

applehunter

Flying Fox wrote: »

I really hope you're right. I'm in Dublin and conscious I may be in a bit of a bubble, so I find it interesting to hear how its looking in rural areas.

This thread is a bubble as well remember.

RobertKK

More info on the poll by Millward Brown.

Compared to their last poll on the 8th amendment:

Yes 45% (-18%)
No 34% (+10%)
Undecided 18% (+5%)
Rest wouldn't give opinion 4%

Recent trends as seen in other polls have continued, becoming a closer battle.

applehunter

Flying Fox wrote: »

Well I've had No campaigners shout out of a car window at me for wearing a Yes badge, so you can get off your high horse.

Did they come on here and declare they were proud to have done so?

AnneFrank

AnneFrank wrote: »

A 12 week old foetus in the womb is not a clump of cells or an idea of a child that is spoken about here, to lots of people it's a child.

That is just a feeling being projected onto it, especially for people who want to have a baby. The actual scientific evidence shows that it doesn't have a brain, doesn't have a nervous system (so can't feel pain) and is nowhere near developed enough to be considered a sentient being. Of course, this gradually changes as the pregnancy progresses further.

dudara

SusieBlue wrote: »

The only small comfort is that should the effort fail and No wins, the EU has already stated that the 8th is breaching human rights and a danger to women, and the UN has referred to our current abortion laws as ‘cruel, inhumane and degrading’.

Hopefully they will put pressure on the government to have another referendum on the matter in the near future.

Never mind the EU. If this referendum fails, I will put pressure on my TDs, my Seanad members and every political avenue that I can access to get another chance. I did not spend 40 years of my life in this country only to be told I am second class because I happen to have a womb.

I call on everyone reading this to keep up the unrelenting pressure.

BoJack Horseman

Flying Fox wrote: »

A foetus in early pregnancy is not a baby, it has the potential to become one.

Odd wording!

"potential"

What is the potential of it becoming something else?

Can a fetus turn into a teddy-bear? A Toyota Yaris? A piece of breaded haddock?

Or, will a fetus always turn into a baby?

The use of the word "potential" implies there could be some doubt as to the outcome.

Ever heard of a fetus that developed into anything other than a baby?

What odd linguistic knots people use.

BoJack Horseman

dudara wrote: »

only to be told I am second class

If you are 2nd class, who is 1st class?

Who above you enjoys a greater right to abort an unborn child?

If you claim to be on the wrong end of a hierarchy, who is on the top exactly?

It wasnt me123

RobertKK wrote: »

More info on the poll by Millward Brown.

Compared to their last poll on the 8th amendment:

Yes 45% (-18%)
No 34% (+10%)
Undecided 18% (+5%)
Rest wouldn't give opinion 4%

Recent trends as seen in other polls have continued, becoming a closer battle.

I can't disagree with your figures as I can't get up the poll results from google (I'm not very techie).

Just don't assume that all the undecideds and the rest are No voters. They could all vote yes and it will be 65 to 35. We won't know until the 26th. All we can do is put our opinions forward and see what happens.

I think it will be Repeal all the way - body autonomy for all

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Odd wording!

"potential"

What is the potential of it becoming something else?

Can a fetus turn into a teddy-bear? A Toyota Yaris? A piece of breaded haddock?

Or, will a fetus always turn into a baby?

The use of the word "potential" implies there could be some doubt as to the outcome.

Ever heard of a fetus that developed into anything other than a baby?

What odd linguistic knots people use.

It is a potential person, if the pregnancy continues. It absolutely cannot be considered a person at <12 weeks, and certainly cannot be valued as equal to the living breathing woman carrying it. This is the prevailing view across the vast majority of the developed world, but Irish people were conditioned to believe a foetus is a poor little innocent baby and that women seeking abortion were murdering sluts.

Alos, can you please answer the question I posed to you:
How would you suggest legislating for rape cases?

Flying Fox

Flying Fox wrote: »

I really hope you're right. I'm in Dublin and conscious I may be in a bit of a bubble, so I find it interesting to hear how its looking in rural areas.

Live in rural Meath, plenty of support for repeal from talking to people, but good few for no.

Retain side were out in Kells today according to a friend mainly men in their late fifties and early sixties handing out leaflets from what they seen with plenty of people arguing with them.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Odd wording!

"potential"

What is the potential of it becoming something else?

Can a fetus turn into a teddy-bear? A Toyota Yaris? A piece of breaded haddock?

Or, will a fetus always turn into a baby?

The use of the word "potential" implies there could be some doubt as to the outcome.

Ever heard of a fetus that developed into anything other than a baby?

What odd linguistic knots people use.

No a foetus does not always develop into a baby, miscarriage for example prevent this.

dudara

dudara wrote: »

Never mind the EU. If this referendum fails, I will put pressure on my TDs, my Seanad members and every political avenue that I can access to get another chance. I did not spend 40 years of my life in this country only to be told I am second class because I happen to have a womb.

I call on everyone reading this to keep up the unrelenting pressure.

It may I fear take a few more preventable deaths, or families having their wishes denied to get another vote on it.

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

A 12 week old foetus in the womb is not a clump of cells or an idea of a child that is spoken about here, to lots of people it's a child.

Yet ANOTHER sly dig at how a poster here rationalised his own miscarriage. It seems like you can’t help yourself but to passive aggressively that the p*ss out of it.

Why are you continuously bringing it up?
You clearly have a massive issue with how he dealt with his grief, and you bizarrely feel as if you are entitled to feel offended by it, so why not take it up with him, rather than use his circumstances to refute other people’s arguments?

Where’s the Love Both for him? Or is it treatment only for people who happen to agree with you?

Wrongway1985

threescompany wrote: »

Me too.....
I was undecided initially but when it became unrestricted I decided, I will be voting no as i could never vote for unrestricted abortion.

The time scales being set are to allow for maximum care, people don't get abortions on a whim sadly abortions occurring after 12 weeks it is likely that something has gone drastically wrong. What to your mind is unrestricted abortion and why prior did you accept repeal?

AnneFrank wrote: »

A 12 week old foetus in the womb is not a clump of cells or an idea of a child that is spoken about here, to lots of people it's a child.

How many of your friends/family over the years have broadcast they were having a baby immediately at conception? It's the norm people keep quiet till the 10-12 week period! that mere concept is the acceptance that prior to then...very much potential life as opposed to a certain child.

SusieBlue

SusieBlue wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER sly dig at how a poster here rationalised his own miscarriage. It seems like you can’t help yourself but to passive aggressively that the p*ss out of it.

Why are you continuously bringing it up?
You clearly have a massive issue with how he dealt with his grief, and you bizarrely feel as if you are entitled to feel offended by it, so why not take it up with him, rather than use his circumstances to refute other people’s arguments?

Where’s the Love Both for him? Or is it treatment only for people who happen to agree with you?

Maybe a case of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjPsQNGlNQg

Wrongway1985

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Some side we on road to Ed Sheeran concert in Cork last night, wasn't bothered to listen was it yes or no, tbh sick of posters and hearing about it at this stage

I'm sick of Ed Sheeran and hearing about him at this stage :pac::pac:

AnneFrank

SusieBlue wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER sly dig at how a poster here rationalised his own miscarriage. It seems like you can’t help yourself but to passive aggressively that the p*ss out of it.

Why are you continuously bringing it up?
You clearly have a massive issue with how he dealt with his grief, and you bizarrely feel as if you are entitled to feel offended by it, so why not take it up with him, rather than use his circumstances to refute other people’s arguments?

Where’s the Love Both for him? Or is it treatment only for people who happen to agree with you?

Susie you seem to read things that are not there.

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

Susie you seem to read things that are not there.

No I don’t. Stop playing dumb. Everyone can see what your doing. I can respect your posts even though I disagree with them, but there is no need to be so unkind.
How someone else deals with a miscarriage that happened to them should not be used to score points.

spookwoman

Seeing people bring up the unrestricted 12 weeks abortion excuse. So what if someone has an abortion for their own person reason within those weeks.
We don't know the reasons behind it, it could be no money, is it right to force someone to have a child they cannot afford and bring that child up in poverty?
Is it right to force someone to have a child because when they don't have the support? We don't know if its a failed relationship, no family etc. We cannot expect family to be there all the time to look after someone else kids, they have their own lives.
Is it right to force someone who is not ready and does not want to have a child? How many people out there would want to be forced into raising a child against their will?
Is it right to force someone to have a child against their will full stop! No contraception is 100%, it's next to impossible to get your tubes tied.
You can talk about adoption but that woman is still forced to carry and deliver against their will. Pregnancy changes people, it changes their bodies it can change their health and it can endanger it.
I and no one else can know what that person is going through and the only person who can make the decision to have an abortion is the woman herself. It should be her choice and no ones elses.

Wrongway1985

FutureGuy wrote: »

Will put it out in the open. I'm an atheist but I would like to understand something.

There's a mosque in Dublin opening its doors to the homeless during the upcoming cold snap. This is sure to save lives.

Why isn't the Catholic Church doing the same with its churches? These people are at risk of dying and yet the church does nothing. It's not for want of space or money so why not? Why aren't mass-goers asking their local priest the question?

AnneFrank wrote: »

It would save alot of our national resources if they did die

AnneFrank post here suggests you are a hypocrite. You have no problem sentencing actual living beings to death but will post here claiming that you consider life.

ArmaniJeanss

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

You're with Billy Timmins and LucindaC here dude - the people you spent most of your early boards.ie life eloquently opposing.

Think again, ultimately I reckon you are a Yes voter - Repeal the absolute fcuk out of the 8th and then fight for the legislation you are most comfortable with. There's very few of us think the proposed legislation is 'perfect', but please don't let its inadequacies lead you to think that a No vote will lead to a better alternative - it'll just solidify the 8th as is for another 30 years. It's the worst outcome for you.

_Dara_

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I honestly think he just lost his balance with the height of the ladder and the small amount of push between them.

Very easy to happen really. I don't think it's really a case of acting it up or assault either.

Would love to know what the actual story with the bearded fella is though.

It’s a weird one alright. Is that dude guarding the pole or what?

Dressing gown

1 in 6 pregnancies ends in miscarriage after the mother has found out she is pregnant. It is estimated that many more pregnancies result in miscarriage before a woman even knows she is pregnant (source NHS).

So not every 12 week old Fetus results in a baby.

This is why most people don’t announce their pregnancies until after the 12 week mark.

This is not England. If it was, abortion would have been legal here since 1967. We are culturally very different in that respect. There will not be a 1 in 5 stat (which has been debunked and includes the figures for Irish women obtaining abortions) here. To suggest there will is comparing apples and pears.

Dressing gown

Please if your problem is the 12 week ‘unrestricted’ point, do some homework on the constitution vs legislation. There is zero wiggle room for anything enshrined in a countries constitution. It is rigid. There is no scope for change. This remove/leave referendum is what we have. That is our option. No fiddle around with the eighth a bit. It is a terrible amendment that is causing an enormous amount of harm to women of Ireland all of the time (go back 20 pages and see the poster denied an X-ray today because she is of child bearing age and needs a gp to prove she is not pregnant before treatment can begin). The constitution must be adhered to. On that point England does not even have a written constitution. That’s how different we are.

Law is flexible. It’s purpose is to reflect the socially acceptable behaviour of a nation. There are plenty of people opposed to the 12 week limit so campaign for that to the politicians. They are not stupid. Fine Fáil thinks there are enough supporters politically to take the no side of the debate. We can adapt the law far more quickly and easily than the constitution. Please talk to your lawyer (=solicitor/barrister) friends about this if you don’t alteady understand it.

applehunter

Dressing gown wrote: »

This is not England. If it was, abortion would have been legal here since 1967. We are culturally very different in that respect. There will not be a 1 in 5 stat (which has been debunked and includes the figures for Irish women obtaining abortions) here. To suggest there will is comparing apples and pears.

debunked where?

AnneFrank

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

AnneFrank post here suggests you are a hypocrite. You have no problem sentencing actual living beings to death but will post here claiming that you consider life.

This was from a different thread,different subject,totally out of context,pathetic really