DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

skyblue46

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Does anyone else find it hard to slow the pace down, anyone??? I am!

It's hard, really hard! But it's the single most important thing you can do apart from running regularly. It prepares the body for the big day. Just keep trying. 26.2 miles is not easy but can be made easier with the right preparation.

coogy

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Does anyone else find it hard to slow the pace down, anyone??? I am!

I found it hard at the beginning, took me a couple f weeks to get the hang of it and I'm still not quite there yet.

Don't worry, it'll start to feel more natural to you the more you do it.

Testosterscone

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Does anyone else find it hard to slow the pace down, anyone??? I am!

Try not to focus on pace per say, focus on how you are running. Do you have good knee lift? is your upper body relaxed? have you got good arm carriage. All these cues will conserve energy needed for later in the marathon.

Replace the notion of an "easy run" with "training run". In the absence of pace form is what you are spending your time training on in these runs.

To give you example of good and bad form take a look at the below. An average runner will take about 55,000 steps during the marathon. If you can save 0.001% energy from each stride just think how much that will add up to in the latter stages of the marathon.

Dealerz2.0

Testosterscone wrote: »

Try not to focus on pace per say, focus on how you are running. Do you have good knee lift? is your upper body relaxed? have you got good arm carriage. All these cues will conserve energy needed for later in the marathon.

Replace the notion of an "easy run" with "training run". In the absence of pace form is what you are spending your time training on in these runs.

To give you example of good and bad form take a look at the below. An average runner will take about 55,000 steps during the marathon. If you can save 0.001% energy from each stride just think how much that will add up to in the latter stages of the marathon.

You’re on fire with the great advice- will try above- thanks testosterscone

Mr. Guappa

Testosterscone wrote: »

Try not to focus on pace per say, focus on how you are running. Do you have good knee lift? is your upper body relaxed? have you got good arm carriage. All these cues will conserve energy needed for later in the marathon.

Replace the notion of an "easy run" with "training run". In the absence of pace form is what you are spending your time training on in these runs.

To give you example of good and bad form take a look at the below. An average runner will take about 55,000 steps during the marathon. If you can save 0.001% energy from each stride just think how much that will add up to in the latter stages of the marathon.

Could you expand on the good form versus bad form bit? The only difference I see between those two pictures is that one lad is wearing sunglasses.

RayCun

Testosterscone wrote: »

To give you example of good and bad form take a look at the below. An average runner will take about 55,000 steps during the marathon. If you can save 0.001% energy from each stride just think how much that will add up to in the latter stages of the marathon.

Love the choice of pics :pac:

Testosterscone

RayCun wrote: »

Love the choice of pics :pac:

Figured better using myself as an example rather than cherry picking internet pictures.

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Could you expand on the good form versus bad form bit? The only difference I see between those two pictures is that one lad is wearing sunglasses.

In the poor form example the following things would be area's to work on

1) Front leg no great knee lift. This is indicating that generating momentum from quads pulling the leg forward as opposed to push off. Glutes and Hamstrings are where you can generate most power so we should be using these as a push force rather than a quad contraction (pull force)

2) Back leg not fully extending with slight bend and no push off from the ankle. Again this comes down to not using hamstrings efficiently and running with fully range of motion during the running gait phase

3) Hips not fully engaged meaning hip flexors are restricted. That butt sticking out look restricts the high knee lift. Aim should be running tall with a slightly forward lean to allow hips to fully open up

4) Arms sitting by side rather than assisting forward momentum with good swing. Drive the arms while staying relaxed and the legs will follow

This is an over analysis for the necessity of this thread but highlights that there are little things that can be worked on but the overall message is running relaxed and running easy are different in their meanings. You can run fast and relaxed as well as slow and tight. With the easy pace of these runs and the sheer time on your feet as the minutes add up over the next few months there is plenty of time to ingrain good habits through practice.

gypsylee

Baby75 wrote: »

How are you

I did indeed your memory serves you well and no problem at all
Isotonic drinks:
40 - 80 g of sugar
1 Litre of warm water
1/2 teaspoon of salt
splash of cordial (optional)

or another option which we have tried and tested many time's
500ml orange/apple juice
500ml water
1/4 teaspoon of salt


hope that helps

Thanks for that. Will make up a drink for after my long runs.

ssshhh123

Ok so signed up for dcm18.

This will ne my 3rd marathon. Done my first in 2013 and followed the hh novice 1. But missed a few here and there. I was also playing gaa and cycling to work so thought i would be grand. Plan was sub 400 and i done it in 401. That 1 min annoyed me.

So fast forward to dcm17 friday afternoon friend asked would i run it. So got a golden ticket and done a 5k at expected marathon pace that day. Went out sunday ran ok no major snags till mile 21. Obviously no training caught me out. Stugled around the remainder to finish 428 includes a massage.

So this year i plan on 345. Ive started the running world plan for sub 345. Its a 16 week programme so i going to repeat weeks 1 and 2 till its time to kick on.

gypsylee

Testosterscone wrote: »

Try not to focus on pace per say, focus on how you are running. Do you have good knee lift? is your upper body relaxed? have you got good arm carriage. All these cues will conserve energy needed for later in the marathon.


I am aware that I am a plodder in that I feel like my feet barely lift the ground when I run. I have been focusing on improving my form, concentrating on relaxing my shoulders and being aware of my arm movements. In relation to "good knee lift" is it just a matter of raising my knees higher as I run or is there a certain technique I should be applying? Tried lifting them higher on my run last night, it was difficult to maintain but I am sure it will improve. Any tips would be appreciated.

Baby75

gypsylee wrote: »

Thanks for that. Will make up a drink for after my long runs.

You are very welcome I have to say my favorite fuel for long runs and the races/ marathon was tailwind I do not like Gels and I found Tailwind brilliant

skyblue46

gypsylee wrote: »

Testosterscone wrote: »

Try not to focus on pace per say, focus on how you are running. Do you have good knee lift? is your upper body relaxed? have you got good arm carriage. All these cues will conserve energy needed for later in the marathon.


I am aware that I am a plodder in that I feel like my feet barely lift the ground when I run. I have been focusing on improving my form, concentrating on relaxing my shoulders and being aware of my arm movements. In relation to "good knee lift" is it just a matter of raising my knees higher as I run or is there a certain technique I should be applying? Tried lifting them higher on my run last night, it was difficult to maintain but I am sure it will improve. Any tips would be appreciated.

One tip that I was given ( not that I was great at using it ) was to also concentrate on lifting my heel higher towards my bum as I run. It makes it less likely that you will be over striding when you concentrate on lifting your knees.

Lots of us newbie/ novice type runners run with legs which resemble a pair of scissors running with each leg swinging back and forth. The idea of knee and heel lift is to encourage some bending of the leg which in turn improves running efficiency.

ariana`

gypsylee wrote: »

One tip that I was given ( not that I was great at using it ) was to also concentrate on lifting my heel higher towards my bum as I run. It makes it less likely that you will be over striding when you concentrate on lifting your knees.

I was just about to post the same. I was told to try to think of kicking your bum as you run! Likewise i'm not sure how good i am at doing it, i try for a while when i think of it but then i slip back to my normal plod

Another tip i was given was try to think of yourself as being attached by an elastic band around your hips to the runner in front of you; your hips are facing forward, this stops you from slouching as well.

Disclaimer: I'm nervous posting tips on form because i am far far far from an expert but these are the two main tips i've been given for what they're worth

ariana`

ssshhh123 wrote: »

Ok so signed up for dcm18.

This will ne my 3rd marathon. Done my first in 2013 and followed the hh novice 1. But missed a few here and there. I was also playing gaa and cycling to work so thought i would be grand. Plan was sub 400 and i done it in 401. That 1 min annoyed me.

So fast forward to dcm17 friday afternoon friend asked would i run it. So got a golden ticket and done a 5k at expected marathon pace that day. Went out sunday ran ok no major snags till mile 21. Obviously no training caught me out. Stugled around the remainder to finish 428 includes a massage.

So this year i plan on 345. Ive started the running world plan for sub 345. Its a 16 week programme so i going to repeat weeks 1 and 2 till its time to kick on.

Welcome to the group ssshhh123. It must have been very frustrating to run 4:01 but a great first marathon all the same And i can't believe you ran one with no training at all and still in a very respectable time! Best of luck with the plan for this year - i'm not familiar with it but it sounds like you're very experienced yourself so I'm sure you'll do great.

downtheroad

Just stumbled across this so will add my name to the list
Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!) Did Cork half marathon last weekend in 1.39.35
Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do) No
How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level. Try to do at least 3 runs a week, usually a Parkrun and run home from work twice a week at around 10k each time.
What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time? Under 3.45 would be fantastic, but I'd be more than happy with 3.59.59 in DCM18 as it is my first ever marathon.
How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow? Thinking of going with the Boards plan, 4 days per week.
What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up? None really - signed up so that hard part is now done
Why are you running this marathon? To finally run a marathon.

RayCun

gypsylee wrote: »

I am aware that I am a plodder in that I feel like my feet barely lift the ground when I run. I have been focusing on improving my form, concentrating on relaxing my shoulders and being aware of my arm movements. In relation to "good knee lift" is it just a matter of raising my knees higher as I run or is there a certain technique I should be applying? Tried lifting them higher on my run last night, it was difficult to maintain but I am sure it will improve. Any tips would be appreciated.

(disclaimer - any suggestion for how to change someone's stride has the problem that you are using words to describe an internal state. When I think of "running tall" I associate it with particular sensations - tension here, relaxation there, moving a certain way. When someone else hears "running tall", they might have a very different physical/mental picture. So giving two people the same advice can have very different effects.)

Knee lift is an effect, not something you work on directly. A lack of knee lift, as Testostercone said, means "generating momentum from quads pulling the leg forward as opposed to push off".

Think of a kid's swing going back and forward
............ /.................|................\
.........../...................|.................\
........ /.....................|...................\

How do you get the swing to go higher in front?
You could stand behind it and push it forward - what you usually do with a swing.
Or, you could stand in front of it and push it back. It will go higher at the back, and that will make it swing higher at the front.

If you focus on trying to raise your knees, that's the equivalent of standing behind the swing and pushing it forward. Every time your knee moves forward past your body you think, "okay, go higher!" But then, as Testostercone said, you are "generating momentum from quads pulling the leg forward" - you are just making those quads work even harder.

So instead focus on the backswing. Push forward off the ground, and pick your feet up behind you. Your leg will swing forward naturally rather than being pulled forward.

ariana`

Super to have you on board downtheroad. Great time in Cork, well done. There's a loose calculation that twice your HM time + 20min = marathon time so that would give you a sub 4 hr marathon time alright You will possibly run faster who knows for now lets focus on the training! You'll be well able for the Boards plan! What sort of paces do you do your training runs and park run at? Two and a bit weeks till it starts so plenty of time to recover from Cork HM and you'll be raring to go.

RayCun

All the things that testostercone mentioned are tied together
1. No knee lift means your legs are being moved by your quads, pulled forward instead of swing forward
2. Back leg not extending means no push off, means no energy available to swing forward
3. Engaging your hips will help drive your leg back
4. Your arms are also transferring momentum to your lower body, driving your right elbow back will swing your right knee forward. Static arms mean a shorter stride

Swashbuckler

RayCun wrote:

So instead focus on the backswing. Push forward off the ground, and pick your feet up behind you. Your leg will swing forward naturally rather than being pulled forward.

So focus more on pushing forward and heel kicking the bum than lifting the knee so to speak?

Testosterscone

+1 to RayC's comments some pretty good information.

Form can be a fickle thing. There is no such thing as perfect form, it is quite individual (think of Paula Radcliffe's nodding head) as such general advice can be hard to give. The above cues I mentioned were in relation to myself as observations to allow people to identify differences between good and poor form (good not perfect )

There are some issues which tend to be common in road runners (and in certain demographics simply because they are new to the sport and ramping up miles to complete marathon which tend to overload certain muscles and as a result are good starting points.

With trying to improve form there are certain stages which need to be looked at.

1.Biomechanics
If the muscles are chronically tight and or not recruiting muscle fibres efficiently then imbalances can be the reason for form issues. The quads pulling issue I mentioned before is a common one. Many of us are coming from desk jobs etc where Glutes become lazy to an extend, this coupled with easy miles loading the quads makes many of us over reliant on them and you start to see a bucket seat type posture as below;



Even if you try to get good knee lift here you will struggle as you are working against your bodies mechanics. This is why strength work and flexibility play a role in running. You have to be able to run the hips/legs through full range of motion to be able to train them to do it efficiently if not you will just end up using up extra energy working against what your body wants.

2. Conscious Effort

Ones the body is free enough to carry out the action this is where you can start to practice. One way of doing this is to try to hold good form throughout your runs however as the effort level is high here this can be difficult to do and when fatigue starts kicking in form will go out the window (as it does with most people in later stages of races). The other way to do this is running drills. These allow you to solely focus on form and not have fatigue compromise it.

The following is a fairly comprehensive list of drills;

https://www.facebook.com/jopocoaching/videos/743177949220725/?hc_ref=ARSjfbq1oOvlcrJibMNoJqFxqMeEkSbcnB6GPmd99Mwondf15w2eN9DyPp_LAb3mSFs

A few of these before training sessions after warm up can be good way of slowly training the body to perform good form.

3. Unconscious Effort

Over time you will see this improve and you will able to hold good form longer and longer this coupled with easy runs being relaxed you will become more efficient to the point where it won't be an active effort to hold good form.

Running is a very accessible sport and the draw that many people see is that anyone can run but unfortunately running is a skill and one which people rarely learn to do properly which creates so many issues in terms of injury and performance.

NyOmnishambles

Hi All

So I am signed up for this, my second attempt at doing the marathon

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
I started running in 2013 and attempted to train for the marathon in 2014
10K 1.01
21K 2.20 I was aiming for 2hrs but broke/fractured my big toe in the first couple of miles so that slowed me down and put me out of the marathon

Various other injuries and a lack of motivation have kept me out since

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
Up until this morning I would have said yes, I have been training on a treadmill and would regularly take walk breaks, did a really really slow 10K into the office today and only had to stop for junctions

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.

Running 4 times this week totalling 31K, cycling twice (in and out to work) for 20K

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?


First of all I want to finish, ideally in just under 4 hours but to be honest anything under 4.5 will do me

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
As much as is required. I will follow the Boards plan

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?

Honestly having done the training before following a Boards plan all I can say to anyone new to this is trust the plan and pay heed to the advice to slow down. The process works
I had done the longest run on the plan and was fully confident I would get round on the day before I got injured, barring injury I have no worries I will do it this time


Why are you running this marathon?
Unfinished business and I want a sense of personal satisfaction of seeing something through, something that isn't easy
That plus I need to lose a heap of weight and I know this will help

Best of luck everybody, I am sure we will all have a great time

The Black Oil

Re slowing down, don't forget the advice about the idea of being able to hold a conversation with someone.

Mr. Guappa

Tried out the form running earlier. Done an Easy 5km, with an attempt at good form which lasted for approx the first 3km. Felt like it took a whole load more energy, whether it was the increased concentration or whatever, but I'll keep trying.

Hedgehoggy

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Tried out the form running earlier. Done an Easy 5km, with an attempt at good form which lasted for approx the first 3km. Felt like it took a whole load more energy, whether it was the increased concentration or whatever, but I'll keep trying.

I've been trying to concentrate on form on my slower runs and it definitely felt weird at the start and increased perceived effort but after a while it starts to feel better. Thinks its paying off now at the end of my longer runs. I'm feeling less hunched in the shoulders and lighter in my stride

Kellygirl

Hi NyOmnishambles. Good to have you on board. Best of luck with this training cycle. That was bad luck in 2014.

Nice to hear you ran that 10km nice and slowly. Keep the slow pace up for your runs and you’ll reduce the chance of injury this time round - not sure if the injuries you’ve had in the last few years are running related or not but a slow and steady build up will do younthe world of good no matter what. Maybe put the sub 4 hour to the back of your mind for now and train to your current paces.

NyOmnishambles

Kellygirl wrote: »

Hi NyOmnishambles. Good to have you on board. Best of luck with this training cycle. That was bad luck in 2014.

Nice to hear you ran that 10km nice and slowly. Keep the slow pace up for your runs and you’ll reduce the chance of injury this time round - not sure if the injuries you’ve had in the last few years are running related or not but a slow and steady build up will do younthe world of good no matter what. Maybe put the sub 4 hour to the back of your mind for now and train to your current paces.

Thanks

Not concerned with pace for now, that will come, just planning on building up the distance over the next while

The injuries were bad luck, not running related but an attempt to get fit to start running again
I went to MMA classes, great craic, highly recommend it, but I slipped during a warm up sprint across the floor and broke the same toe again and wrecked my knee which has kept me out of action for quite a while

ariana`

Good morning 2018 DCM marathon runners to be

In 2 weeks time we'll be on day 1 of our training plans, bring it on i hear you all say! In the meantime keep going with the base building, slowing down the runs, stretching, eating well, sleeping well.... ah yeah i know i don't ask for much

And (because i haven't already asked for much) when you have 15 minutes to spare here is an epic marathon report well worth a read. Yaboya is not a novice marathon runner but i think there's a few lessons in his report for all of us so happy reading.

coogy

Hi folks. Ive been using Strava for a couple of weeks and im really liking it.
DCIM 2018 is showing up as one of my clubs but I'm not sure if ive been properly added.
Woukd anyone here be able to help?
Thanks!

TFBubendorfer

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks. Ive been using Strava for a couple of weeks and im really liking it.
DCIM 2018 is showing up as one of my clubs but I'm not sure if ive been properly added.
Woukd anyone here be able to help?
Thanks!

If it's showing up as one of your clubs then you have been added

Kellygirl

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks. Ive been using Strava for a couple of weeks and im really liking it.
DCIM 2018 is showing up as one of my clubs but I'm not sure if ive been properly added.
Woukd anyone here be able to help?
Thanks!

I can see you there (I assume it’s you anyway). What makes you think it’s not working?