DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

Rossi7

whiskey_sour wrote: »

In contrast to everyone else's problems of slowing down... I find I'm actually finding it really hard to hit the paces macmillan is giving me. I raced a parkrun on Saturday to get an idea of my fitness, did my LSR yesterday and was a good 1 minute/mile slower than the paces I should be hitting. My legs were just wrecked... I even had to take a couple of walking breaks. Now I was sick earlier in the week but was feeling grand yesterday and the problem was entirely my legs not my breathing etc... So basically my question is are these paces my 'bible' so to speak... Or can I go slower if I'm just not able for it that day??

Time on the feet is more important than pace or distance for us at this stage, gradually increase your LSR by 1-2k per week. Racing a park run and stepping up distance may be a reason for your tired legs. From my own experience I do an easy 5 miler and foam roll the life out of myself the day before my LSR

ariana`

bucketybuck wrote: »

Cheers!

Its almost like a personality test though, I should be happy because I took 3 minutes of my PB and broke 50 mins, but instead I'm annoyed because it was a really hot day and there was a really steep, winding path around the 7k mark which needed navigating, so I think I could go faster on a better course. I'm never bloody happy! :pac:

Well done on the new 10k pb, it's great to break through that milestone time and in style too. More to come no doubt

whiskey_sour wrote: »

In contrast to everyone else's problems of slowing down... I find I'm actually finding it really hard to hit the paces macmillan is giving me. I raced a parkrun on Saturday to get an idea of my fitness, did my LSR yesterday and was a good 1 minute/mile slower than the paces I should be hitting. My legs were just wrecked... I even had to take a couple of walking breaks. Now I was sick earlier in the week but was feeling grand yesterday and the problem was entirely my legs not my breathing etc... So basically my question is are these paces my 'bible' so to speak... Or can I go slower if I'm just not able for it that day??

The calculator is just a guide, it's even better if you can use other cues to guide you. You should be able to hold a conversation at your easy pace for example. You should feel relaxed and comfortable.

There are other factors which effect our running, each run is not in isolation, there is cumulative fatigue (which you'll definitely be feeling as the weeks tick by once the plan starts).. The weather can play a part too - heat, humidity, wind etc. Also how you've been sleeping and stress in your life can impact your running.

It's a good thing to be able to run by 'effort' or by 'feel' as long as you're not speeding up and telling yourself it's 'easy' when really it's not! This is why the scientific approach of using a calculator is handy especially for novices but it is just a guide. And in your case where you find yourself going slower than the guide then this is definitely not a problem, go with it.

And as rossi pointed out you're getting the added benefit of extra time on your feet too

skyblue46

bucketybuck wrote: »

In the theme of running to your current fitness, not your goal time...

I did DCM for the first time in 2016, in a time of 4.32. My goal time this time around is 4.00hrs.

Recently I had my eye on getting a PB in a local 10k race, I did this last weekend with my first sub 50 10k, in a time of 48.05.

Using that 10k time the MacMillan calculator says my marathon time could be 3.45hrs and a pace of 5.21 min/km. A 4 hour marathon would have a pace of 5.41 min/km.

Which should I go for?

skyblue46 wrote: »

Go with current pace. It's easy to revise downwards if you find training tough. As I said to Eyrie earlier there is no need to totally bury the hope for your best possible time. Predictions for marathons off 10k times are notoriously unreliable but no harm training to them for now.

RayCun wrote: »

4 hours.

The MacMillan calculator is fairly optimistic when converting shorter distance times to marathon times. Especially for runners who don't have a lot of training miles behind them. Your marathon goal time should be conservative.

This will come up more closer to the race, but if you think a 4 hour target would be selling yourself short, you are still almost certainly better off running the first half at four hour pace and picking it up in the second half than you would be starting at a more aggressive pace.

Hiya Bucketybuck. Just to clear up my misunderstanding here. I thought your question was in regard to your training paces and I was simply repeating my mantra to train to current fitness levels. Recent race times are your best guide of how you can train now. Target times in June for a race at the end of October could change upwards or downwards depending on how your training goes. There will be plenty of time closer to the big day to decide on target paces and pacing strategies. I should actually say strategy as there will be just one, as Ray says it will be ultra conservative!

Baby75

an interesting piece on marathon training

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/training-for-a-marathon-here-s-where-to-start-1.2717975

ReeReeG

Guess I should officially join...
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]5k: 23:47 (Sept 2017, parkrun PB 23:29 May 2018)[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]5 mile: 37:39 (Jan 2018)[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]10k: 47:38 (Nov 2017)[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]1/2 marathon: 1:46:54 (March 2018)[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Marathon: 4:29:36 (May 2018) ...Ok so not strictly a novice... but I've been told I'm allowed here :P[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]No, but have a developed an annoying tendency to give up on anything "hard" since the Limerick marathon. [/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]4-5 days a week running, anything between 20-26 miles total currently but aiming to get back towards 30 a week soon. Generally easy x 2/3, 1 x hard / session, 1 LSR. Run with a club.[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Do one yoga and one pilates class a week as a sort of cross-training. [/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]I had high hopes of the sub-4 in Limerick but had no idea how hard the mental game is! Now that I've been through that once, I hope I am coming into DCM more prepared and will set a goal of sub-4 again.[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]4-5 days is fine. Will be following the club plan again, which has some weeks with 4 runs, some with 5 and one with 6! Worked well before, just the race day didn't go to plan...[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up? [/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]That I'll bottle it on the day.[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]Why are you running this marathon?[/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]I feel like I have a better marathon time in me. I ran the first one for a cause very close to my heart and to remember someone special; this one is for me.[/font]

Kellygirl

Nice to have you on board ReeReeG - I think the majority will underestimate the mental side of things until the day. DCM will be a very different kettle of fish for you to Limerick. You’ll do great. Even if we get the same temperatures as Limerick, which is unlikely, we will have at least trained in it and not be suddenly surprised with the hottest day of the year and then you had all the emotional side too.

NyOmnishambles

Nice conditions for a run this morning, cloudy with a bit of a breeze

Nice and comfortable waddle into work although once I got into town and had to stop at junctions it was very hard to get going again

But I am sure that is good for me in some shape or form

ariana`

Welcome ReeReeG! I love that you're doing this one for you!! You definitely have a better marathon time in you but you'll only ever do your first one once and it was an amazing achievement especially with all the emotion behind it. I also think you have better 5k & 5m times based on your 10k & HM times! It's funny usually it's the other way around, the times drop off as the distances go up! This is a great sign of your speed endurance and bodes very well for the marathon, i think you're well placed to target sub-4 and i'm looking forward to following your progress.

Baby75

eyrie wrote: »

My easy and LSR paces for training have always been substantially slower than whatever the mcmillan calculator says. I ignore it completely. I think effort is more important for those type of runs. I only worry about pace for speedwork, etc. Also I think the paces mcmillan gives are way out of line with other recommendations and calculators. I'm sure it's accurate for some people but it's definitely not for me, and I don't think it would help my training to try and follow it! I would naturally fall much closer to the times I get from this one: http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

I have been using that calculator as well eyrie and find it great only found it about 2 weeks ago

cullenswood

This mornings long run was a bit of a slog, but possibly having two lower mileage weeks prior to this week meant my body was just grumbling about it!
Still have a niggly knee issue (which I've had looked at and no structural issues so fine to run on) and Achilles knack, which I'm icing and heel dropping.

Quick question though. Is everyone following either the Boards plan or the HHN1? Anyone using a different plan?

coogy

NyOmnishambles wrote: »

Nice conditions for a run this morning, cloudy with a bit of a breeze

Nice and comfortable waddle into work although once I got into town and had to stop at junctions it was very hard to get going again

But I am sure that is good for me in some shape or form

Yeah, running in town - especially during rush hour - can be a drag but you can also be lucky and get a good run of green lights at the junctions!
Where are you running from/to?

NyOmnishambles

coogy wrote: »

Yeah, running in town - especially during rush hour - can be a drag but you can also be lucky and get a good run of green lights at the junctions!
Where are you running from/to?

Up the quays from the phoenix Park towards the Ifsc, I was going that route as I know the exact distance from cycling it but I think I will just follow the Luas route from now on as that might be a bit better

coogy

NyOmnishambles wrote: »

Up the quays from the phoenix Park towards the Ifsc, I was going that route as I know the exact distance from cycling it but I think I will just follow the Luas route from now on as that might be a bit better

I work on D'Olier St and on my lunchtime run I normally head down the LUAS tracks down to Phoenix Park (Michael D's gaff) and back again.
You definitely get a less congested route if you follow the tracks!

coogy

Hi folks.

Up to this point, all of my runs have been solo efforts.

It's not really something that's bothered me that much and I've quite enjoyed the time to myself but as the weekend runs have been getting longer, I'm starting to feel that having another runner with me would be something I'd definitely benefit from.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the pros and cons of running solo VS running in groups?


Thanks!

Swashbuckler

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks.

Up to this point, all of my runs have been solo efforts.

It's not really something that's bothered me that much and I've quite enjoyed the time to myself but as the weekend runs have been getting longer, I'm starting to feel that having another runner with me would be something I'd definitely benefit from.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the pros and cons of running solo VS running in groups?


Thanks!

The only con to running in groups is you usually end up running at a pace which is a tad quicker (or slower sometimes) than you'd like. As for the mental side, the company is great. As a predominantly solo runner myself, I more than understand where you're coming from but in other ways I use the time to clear my mind and come up with pearls of wisdom

racersedge

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks.

Up to this point, all of my runs have been solo efforts.

It's not really something that's bothered me that much and I've quite enjoyed the time to myself but as the weekend runs have been getting longer, I'm starting to feel that having another runner with me would be something I'd definitely benefit from.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the pros and cons of running solo VS running in groups?


Thanks!

I would be a solo runner myself, occasionally going out with the wife. Definitely looking to change tact coming to the longer runs though. Just for the company considering that those LSR’s are likely to test your mental strength to do them solo!

But yeah, it will be a matter of finding some who are going at the training pace set. I’m lucky that there are is a group in my hometown going through the same training so I’ll hopefully find someone in that group for the longer routes.

Rossi7

I do all my training myself bar the LSR, which I do with a mate who is also doing DCM ( his 2nd, last year was a disaster for him after mile 19 ) , but as Swashbuckler points out there is pro's and cons to it. He's a bit erratic with his pacing so that can be a bit frustrating but the company is good and makes the time on the feet pass much quicker.

I'll be doing a bit of my training runs in the Phoenix Park when the plan starts, so anyone about that area is more than welcome to meet up

Huzzah!

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks.

Up to this point, all of my runs have been solo efforts.

It's not really something that's bothered me that much and I've quite enjoyed the time to myself but as the weekend runs have been getting longer, I'm starting to feel that having another runner with me would be something I'd definitely benefit from.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the pros and cons of running solo VS running in groups?


Thanks!

Probably worth doing some LSRs on your own to practice the mental toughness but in most years, novices have arranged the odd LSR starting in the Phoenix Park with various pace groups.

Swashbuckler

Huzzah! wrote:

Probably worth doing some LSRs on your own to practice the mental toughness but in most years, novices have arranged the odd LSR starting in the Phoenix Park with various pace groups.

Was just gonna say the same thing. Think of all these challenges in your training as tests. If you can battle through the boredom or the rainy days or the days where you just don't feel like it, when the going gets tough on race day you'll grit the teeth and soldier on. Train the brain.

ariana`

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks.

Up to this point, all of my runs have been solo efforts.

It's not really something that's bothered me that much and I've quite enjoyed the time to myself but as the weekend runs have been getting longer, I'm starting to feel that having another runner with me would be something I'd definitely benefit from.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the pros and cons of running solo VS running in groups?


Thanks!

I did all my long runs on my own last year but i did start to use head phones when they got very long! I just put it in one ear so i could still hear traffic and so on but i was running so early in the morning and on fairly quiet rural roads. I have to say i did find some of the long runs lonely/boring after 2 hours but i think it gave me great mental toughness too. I ran DCM on my own, surrounded by thousands, but on my own as i generally wouldn't be the type to start conversations with random other runners.... i felt prepared for running on my own and i didn't mind it a bit on the day, the atmosphere was a novelty

coogy

ariana` wrote: »

I did all my long runs on my own last year but i did start to use head phones when they got very long! I just put it in one ear so i could still hear traffic and so on but i was running so early in the morning and on fairly quiet rural roads. I have to say i did find some of the long runs lonely/boring after 2 hours but i think it gave me great mental toughness too. I ran DCM on my own, surrounded by thousands, but on my own as i generally wouldn't be the type to start conversations with random other runners.... i felt prepared for running on my own and i didn't mind it a bit on the day, the atmosphere was a novelty

I totally agree.

I've found that the longer I run, the more aware I am of the mental challenge of what I'm doing, which in turn pushes me even harder to see out the distance.

I don't think I've ever been so disciplined about anything.

Dealerz2.0

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks.

Up to this point, all of my runs have been solo efforts.

It's not really something that's bothered me that much and I've quite enjoyed the time to myself but as the weekend runs have been getting longer, I'm starting to feel that having another runner with me would be something I'd definitely benefit from.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the pros and cons of running solo VS running in groups?


Thanks!

best decision I made was running with a group at the start of this year (only for the weekend LSR)- the miles fly by, can't recommend it enough in my opinion....but finding the right paced group is key

eyrie

cullenswood wrote: »

Quick question though. Is everyone following either the Boards plan or the HHN1? Anyone using a different plan?

I'm considering using a different plan, but I am BEYOND indecisive about it so I haven't picked one yet! What are you thinking yourself?

Kellygirl

I run all my long runs on my own. I nearly prefer it as I can do my own pace then and if I want to change the pace up or down it’s not affecting anybody else. What I did do last year was arrange to meet a friend for the last 10km or so and I used really look forward to that. I’d plan a route that would take me back to the car when say 10km left and then do that loop with my friend. I used look forward to meeting her and the time used pass quite quickly.

Also, I find listening to the radio rather than music helps pass time for me. I’ve a friend who listens to audio books. Whatever works.

cullenswood

eyrie wrote: »

I'm considering using a different plan, but I am BEYOND indecisive about it so I haven't picked one yet! What are you thinking yourself?

I think I am going to use (a slightly modified version of) the Meno plan. While its technically for Marathon Graduates, I think a couple of Novices followed it in the last few years. I like the flexibility of it (i.e. only 3 runs prescribed and you fill in the rest of the miles yourself to reach a weekly total). It does get spicy enough towards the latter part of the plan with some long midweek MP runs, with even longer LSRs at the weekend, so am bracing myself for the cumulative fatigue that that will build up.

Did you take a look at that plan?

Would be interested in thought of anyone that has looked at it / used it.

Kellygirl

cullenswood wrote: »

I think I am going to use (a slightly modified version of) the Meno plan. While its technically for Marathon Graduates, I think a couple of Novices followed it in the last few years. I like the flexibility of it (i.e. only 3 runs prescribed and you fill in the rest of the miles yourself to reach a weekly total). It does get spicy enough towards the latter part of the plan with some long midweek MP runs, with even longer LSRs at the weekend, so am bracing myself for the cumulative fatigue that that will build up.

Did you take a look at that plan?

Would be interested in thought of anyone that has looked at it / used it.

There was a good discussion on my training log about Meno versus some other plans the other evening as I was dithering myself over what plan to use next. You could go have a look as it mentions the names of posters on the forum who have used it. I’m actually going to follow the Boards plan again this year. I loved it last year and did really well on it.

cullenswood

Kellygirl wrote: »

There was a good discussion on my training log about Meno versus some other plans the other evening as I was dithering myself over what plan to use next. You could go have a look as it mentions the names of posters on the forum who have used it. I’m actually going to follow the Boards plan again this year. I loved it last year and did really well on it.

Nice one, I'll take a look at that now

eyrie

cullenswood wrote: »

I think I am going to use (a slightly modified version of) the Meno plan. While its technically for Marathon Graduates, I think a couple of Novices followed it in the last few years. I like the flexibility of it (i.e. only 3 runs prescribed and you fill in the rest of the miles yourself to reach a weekly total). It does get spicy enough towards the latter part of the plan with some long midweek MP runs, with even longer LSRs at the weekend, so am bracing myself for the cumulative fatigue that that will build up.

Did you take a look at that plan?

Would be interested in thought of anyone that has looked at it / used it.

Yep I thought I had more or less decided to follow it, but got some advice on here that it might be too aggressive. Looking at it more closely there's weeks towards the end where you have a midweek run of 14 miles w/ 10 at marathon pace, and then a long run of 22 miles at the weekend. I would have no intention of doing 22 mile long runs anyway, but even capping it at 20 that's a hell of a week for a first-time marathoner.

I like the structure of the plan, and I would still consider doing it if I could water it down a reasonable bit, but I'm not sure I know enough to decide what could be changed while still keeping what's needed. I would certainly be very interested in this if it has been done before though!

skyblue46

cullenswood wrote: »

I think I am going to use (a slightly modified version of) the Meno plan. While its technically for Marathon Graduates, I think a couple of Novices followed it in the last few years. I like the flexibility of it (i.e. only 3 runs prescribed and you fill in the rest of the miles yourself to reach a weekly total). It does get spicy enough towards the latter part of the plan with some long midweek MP runs, with even longer LSRs at the weekend, so am bracing myself for the cumulative fatigue that that will build up.

Did you take a look at that plan?

Would be interested in thought of anyone that has looked at it / used it.

I haven't looked back at past threads to see if other novices have used the plan but I'd be strongly of the opinion that it would not be suitable for a novice runner. It may fit for a novice marathon runner who is an experienced runner like yourself. I say this mainly because one of the hardest tasks with novice groups has been to ingrain a discipline particularly in relation to paces. I'd be fearful for novices having 3 days to plan their own runs.

I also don't feel I have the knowledge to do it for myself either so I'm happier to stick with a plan that has a definite shape I can follow.

cullenswood

skyblue46 wrote: »

I haven't looked back at past threads to see if other novices have used the plan but I'd be strongly of the opinion that it would not be suitable for a novice runner. It may fit for a novice marathon runner who is an experienced runner like yourself. I say this mainly because one of the hardest tasks with novice groups has been to ingrain a discipline particularly in relation to paces. I'd be fearful for novices having 3 days to plan their own runs.

I also don't feel I have the knowledge to do it for myself either so I'm happier to stick with a plan that has a definite shape I can follow.

Thanks all for the thoughts and I read the discussion on your log Kellygirl also, thanks for that. Definitely gave some food for thought.
My thoughts on it are that I am generally fairly disciplined when making up plans to target times at the shorter distances up to HM, so am hoping I'll be the same for this beast with the Meno plan! Have put a decent bit of thought into whether to do the prescribed 22 miler, and the heavy 14 mile race pace mid week just after the 3/4 marathon, but am going to wait until closer to the date to make a final decision if I go with that plan. They might be slightly tweaked. I'm generally ok with longer distances but this will be new territory, so who knows.
I'd be going for the lower side of his suggested mileage, and I like the step back weeks built in.
Anyway, am fully braced for a tough 4 months, and who knows what twists and turns it'll bring. Number one goal is still - to make it to the start line and take it from there!