DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

skyblue46

smashiner wrote: »

Quick question so, if my HM PB is 1:49 (petrol and matches for me ) 10K PB is 48:10, and I want to target a sub 4 DCM, what pace should I run my LSR's at? I was running them at 6:00 a km thinking that I was a great lad slowing down....should I slow down even further??

This will be my third DCM and I am following an ASIC's plan and I think that is what it is telling me :rolleyes:

Would appreciate a steer on this one.

Considering your past experience I would say 6-6:15 is fine. Last year I had a 1:48 half and 10k similar to yours. I did most runs at 6min/k approx.

brownbinman

Could easy runs be at similar pace as LSR? I'm at around 7min/km, and trying for 7:30min/km LSR. Any slower and I'll be walking!

skyblue46

brownbinman wrote: »

Could easy runs be at similar pace as LSR? I'm at around 7min/km, and trying for 7:30min/km LSR. Any slower and I'll be walking!

Once you get into the swing of it you'll pick up the paces a bit but slow is still king! You'll remember passing myself and my better half on a run in the PP last year. You saw how slow we ran. She did a 3:45 and I did 3:47....

brownbinman

skyblue46 wrote: »

Once you get into the swing of it you'll pick up the paces a bit but slow is still king! You'll remember passing myself and my better half on a run in the PP last year. You saw how slow we ran. She did a 3:45 and I did 3:47....

i remember it fondly! Genuinely do!

I'll keep working on slowing down, thanks for feedback, always appreciated

skyblue46

brownbinman wrote: »

i remember it fondly! Genuinely do!

I'll keep working on slowing down, thanks for feedback, always appreciated

That being said you looked comfortable. I know injury set you back but what are you basing the 7:30 on?

brownbinman

skyblue46 wrote: »

That being said you looked comfortable. I know injury set you back but what are you basing the 7:30 on?

Didn't feel it! After last year I completely reevaluated how I was running. When I started back running, I slowed the pace down nearly by 1min/km. I was a lot more comfortable and felt my stride improving.

That said, did a 5km today at 6:37min/km and was ok

Clibee

Thanks for your replies.

I’m currently on week 6 of the HH novice , I just wanted to start a bit early to see how I’d get on. Should I just continue ? And at the end repeat the last 6 weeks?

I’ve ran 2 10miles races and 1 half Marathon (2:20) this year.

I hope to do the Howth half marathon in July and the long wood 20 mile in sept.

skyblue46

Clibee wrote: »

Thanks for your replies.

I’m currently on week 6 of the HH novice , I just wanted to start a bit early to see how I’d get on. Should I just continue ? And at the end repeat the last 6 weeks?

I’ve ran 2 10miles races and 1 half Marathon (2:20) this year.

I hope to do the Howth half marathon in July and the long wood 20 mile in sept.

I'd start at the start of the plan and slow the paces down a bit. You're doing nearly all your runs at faster than your HM pace which by extension is way faster than your predicted marathon pace. I know we are repeating this message over and over but it is worth repeating. Well done on the preemptive start anyway.

RayCun

PenguinEggs wrote: »

I haven't started my marathon training yet and yes I have got considerably fitter since last year. Thanks

You should do a race soon, even just a parkrun, to get a better idea of your current fitness level. It is not going to be a great indicator of marathon potential, the distances are too different, but it's better than working off races from last year.

PenguinEggs

RayCun wrote: »

You should do a race soon, even just a parkrun, to get a better idea of your current fitness level. It is not going to be a great indicator of marathon potential, the distances are too different, but it's better than working off races from last year.

Cool. I'll try to get up to marley on Saturday and I'll go like the clappers

NyOmnishambles

Morning all

I have a bit of a strained groin at the moment so will take it easy for the next few days

Does anyone have a stretching/injury prevention program that they would recommend

It might be worth sharing before the mileage starts to clock up

brownbinman

This book I found handy to get ideas on stretches, but nothing beats regular trips to physio

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17659882-anatomy-of-running

skyblue46

Are any of you doing either the Dunshaughlin 10k or Irish Runner 5 mile this weekend?

racersedge

skyblue46 wrote: »

Are any of you doing either the Dunshaughlin 10k or Irish Runner 5 mile this weekend?

I'll be in Dunshaughlin. My last 'go nuts and go fast' run before completely engaging with training! Or, since I'm going up with my wife, I might take a more sedentry pace and run with her. It depends on how the day goes up to the race time!

skyblue46

racersedge wrote: »

I'll be in Dunshaughlin. My last 'go nuts and go fast' run before completely engaging with training! Or, since I'm going up with my wife, I might take a more sedentry pace and run with her. It depends on how the day goes up to the race time!

Ah go nuts and go fast, you know you want to!! Heading out to that myself. It's supposed to be a great race.

bucketybuck

racersedge wrote: »

I'll be in Dunshaughlin. My last 'go nuts and go fast' run before completely engaging with training!

I'm going to do the Docklands 5k next Thursday, go for a PB there. Its week 1 of the training and I should be slowing down, but I figure that one last flat out run won't do any harm before getting into the meatier stuff.

Rossi7

bucketybuck wrote: »

racersedge wrote: »

I'll be in Dunshaughlin. My last 'go nuts and go fast' run before completely engaging with training!

I'm going to do the Docklands 5k next Thursday, go for a PB there. Its week 1 of the training and I should be slowing down, but I figure that one last flat out run won't do any harm before getting into the meatier stuff.

I'm trying to justify myself doing Docklands too, one last hurray as such. It's the brothers club race so I don't ant to bring shame to his good name

skyblue46

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'm going to do the Docklands 5k next Thursday, go for a PB there. Its week 1 of the training and I should be slowing down, but I figure that one last flat out run won't do any harm before getting into the meatier stuff.

Rossi7 wrote: »

I'm trying to justify myself doing Docklands too, one last hurray as such. It's the brothers club race so I don't ant to bring shame to his good name

No problem with doing that lads. It'll do ye no harm at all. Give it socks! Looking forward to the first novice thread race report of the year!

Rossi7

skyblue46 wrote: »

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'm going to do the Docklands 5k next Thursday, go for a PB there. Its week 1 of the training and I should be slowing down, but I figure that one last flat out run won't do any harm before getting into the meatier stuff.

Rossi7 wrote: »

I'm trying to justify myself doing Docklands too, one last hurray as such. It's the brothers club race so I don't ant to bring shame to his good name

No problem with doing that lads. It'll do ye no harm at all. Give it socks! Looking forward to the first novice thread race report of the year!

Me too Skyblue, best of luck with the report Bucketybuck  Mine would be more of a headline " went out too quick, died a death" you can read the full report in the Evening Herald death notices section

chabsey

I am trying to follow the general consensus of 'slow down to speed up' during my training this time around so I'm not fighting the idea. However, I do understand the skepticism / difficulty that people have with this - especially seeing as I didn't follow this advice when I ran the DCM before.

Previously I just went out for a run and ran pretty much all my runs at roughly the same pace, the LSRs I did were run at a few seconds slower than the other weekly runs I did and I thought that was fine. In hindsight my version of slow wasn't near slow enough. However, I still ran a 3:38 first time marathon so while I'm hopeful of doing it faster this time around I can understand and see why others might not immediately see the benefits of slowing down.

skyblue46

chabsey wrote: »

I am trying to follow the general consensus of 'slow down to speed up' during my training this time around so I'm not fighting the idea. However, I do understand the skepticism / difficulty that people have with this - especially seeing as I didn't follow this advice when I ran the DCM before.

Previously I just went out for a run and ran pretty much all my runs at roughly the same pace, the LSRs I did were run at a few seconds slower than the other weekly runs I did and I thought that was fine. In hindsight my version of slow wasn't near slow enough. However, I still ran a 3:38 first time marathon so while I'm hopeful of doing it faster this time around I can understand and see why others might not immediately see the benefits of slowing down.

And maybe you might have run 3 hours if you followed the plan! :pac:

Seriously though, well done on the last DCM. Best practice however is still best practice even if good results were achieved by using different training methods. The plans being supported on the thread are to give novice runners the best chance to safely make it all the way through training to the start line and then ice the cake for 26.2 miles. The faster you train, the faster you may run but the likelihood of injury increases substantially. It's a risk this thread is not going to take.

Swashbuckler

chabsey wrote: »

I am trying to follow the general consensus of 'slow down to speed up' during my training this time around so I'm not fighting the idea. However, I do understand the skepticism / difficulty that people have with this - especially seeing as I didn't follow this advice when I ran the DCM before.

Previously I just went out for a run and ran pretty much all my runs at roughly the same pace, the LSRs I did were run at a few seconds slower than the other weekly runs I did and I thought that was fine. In hindsight my version of slow wasn't near slow enough. However, I still ran a 3:38 first time marathon so while I'm hopeful of doing it faster this time around I can understand and see why others might not immediately see the benefits of slowing down.

There will always be outliers! Congrats on a great time.

You have to remember the purpose of the novices thread is to get a group of novices to the day in one piece and hopefully complete the marathon in one piece! So the advice needs to be general.

Running, however is very individual and specific. What's right for me isn't necessarily what's right for you, isn't necessarily whats right for Person C. So for sure, some people may respond differently to different stimulus but the general consensus to get to the start line fit and healthy is slow slow slow.
When you start to look at more advanced marathon plans you'll see all sorts of mixes of intervals and tempo stuff and pace stuff mixed in all over the place depending on the plan. But definitely slower is better for novices.

chabsey

skyblue46 wrote: »

And maybe you might have run 3 hours if you followed the plan! :pac:

That's this year's plan

RayCun

3 benefits to running slower on easy runs

1 - when we're running, our primary fuel source is glycogen. Go for a half marathon race or a tempo run and the energy for that run is coming from glycogen. But we don't store enough glycogen to get us through the marathon. Glycogen depletion is one of the major causes of hitting the wall.

Lower intensity exercise uses fat as a fuel source, so easy runs, especially long easy runs, train your body to use fat as fuel when running. The more fat you use, the longer your glycogen lasts, the more likely you are to avoid the wall.

2 - Time on your feet. The marathon is a long race, and just being on your feet for that long is hard. Long slow runs take longer, so you get used to running for that long

3 - Reducing the cost of each run. Every week you get a paycheque of 'training effort'. Some weeks are easier, you don't spend it all. Some weeks are harder, you start borrowing against the next week. Do that too often and you build up an overdraft - you don't recover properly from one week, then the next week is harder, and you are even less recovered, and the next week is harder, and so on until you end up overtrained or injured.

Faster running takes more effort. Sometimes that's worth it - you want the benefits of an interval session or a tempo run, so you put in the effort. But you have to balance the books too. Easy runs are cheap, but have the benefit of building endurance.

Running fast on an easy run is spending effort for no return. Suppose you're a 4 hour marathoner. Your tempo pace is about 8 minutes a mile (5:00/km), and marathon pace about 9 minutes a mile (5:35/km). If you go for an easy run at 9:30 mile pace you are getting the same endurance development benefits as you would at 10:00 pace, you're not getting the benefits (eg. lactate threshold development) that you would at 8:00 pace, and your effort levels are higher. Maybe not much higher in the early stages of marathon training, when you're running 25 miles/week and a 10 mile long run, but in August/September the cumulative effort of a week's training will be significantly higher - and for no good reason.

chabsey

Swashbuckler wrote: »

You have to remember the purpose of the novices thread is to get a group of novices to the day in one piece and hopefully complete the marathon in one piece! So the advice needs to be general..

I fully agree and in hindsight I think I could have avoided some of the damage I did do to myself (muscle weaknesses which I'm only addressing now) had I known of and followed the advice.

This time I'm slowing down, doing proper stretching, hydrating and incorporating strengthening exercises into the routine.

Actually one of the things I did find on my longer runs was that my arms / shoulders hurt more than my legs! Anyone else experienced this tightness and ache in your shoulders and arms during longer runs?

coogy

chabsey wrote: »

I am trying to follow the general consensus of 'slow down to speed up' during my training this time around so I'm not fighting the idea. However, I do understand the skepticism / difficulty that people have with this - especially seeing as I didn't follow this advice when I ran the DCM before.

Previously I just went out for a run and ran pretty much all my runs at roughly the same pace, the LSRs I did were run at a few seconds slower than the other weekly runs I did and I thought that was fine. In hindsight my version of slow wasn't near slow enough. However, I still ran a 3:38 first time marathon so while I'm hopeful of doing it faster this time around I can understand and see why others might not immediately see the benefits of slowing down.

I can certainly identify with what you are saying. I think I am naturally a fast runner, so have been finding it quite difficult to slow down on the long runs.
That said, I know for a fact that I would not have been anywhere near capable of completing my 10/11 mile runs had I not been slowing things down.
Before I joined this thread, I was doing 8 and 9 mile runs but had absolutely no understanding of pace or anything and I ended up destroyed by mile 6 or 7.
Now my recent long runs have been so much more enjoyable and I know by the end of an 11 mile run, I still have enough left in the tank to go that bit further if I need to.
It continues to be a serious learning curve for me and I know that I've still a lot to get to grips with but knowing that I'm not just making it up as I go along is great motivation too!

sumsar

chabsey wrote: »

Swashbuckler wrote: »

You have to remember the purpose of the novices thread is to get a group of novices to the day in one piece and hopefully complete the marathon in one piece! So the advice needs to be general..

Actually one of the things I did find on my longer runs was that my arms / shoulders hurt more than my legs! Anyone else experienced this tightness and ache in your shoulders and arms during longer runs?

I noticed this about myself too.. should I be trying to increase my upper body strength on my rest days or just add in press ups or whatever to my day?

ReeReeG

skyblue46 wrote: »

Are any of you doing either the Dunshaughlin 10k or Irish Runner 5 mile this weekend?

Dunshaughlin for me! Ran it last year, well run event, and nice course too... bit of a drag / hill around 7km mark if I remember correctly but manageable

skyblue46

Thanks Ray for another great post. The part about training the body to do what it will have to do in the latter stages of a marathon is most helpful and hopefully will be taken on board.

skyblue46

sumsar wrote: »

I noticed this about myself too.. should I be trying to increase my upper body strength on my rest days or just add in press ups or whatever to my day?

I found that I adapted over time. As my running increased last year I had that tightness and concentrated on getting the arms moving in tandem with the legs. A lot of us tend to hold the arms in one position which increases tiredness and fatigue in them. I found shaking out the arms every few minutes helped greatly too.

Remember too that it's not just the most talked about muscles like hamstrings, glutes, quads etc that are taking the brunt of increasing training. Every muscle and sinew is feeling it. Be prepared for niggles, twinges or stiffness in any imaginable place as your body adapts.