DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

smeal

Can’t believe I am only seeing this thread now!!

First time Marathoner. Running for 2 years now with a local club. Ran my first HM this year and have done three so far my times were 2.03, 2.02 and 2.17 (was a really hot day and totally blew up).

Up to 13 miles now on the long runs but have picked up an injury to my IT band so hoping a physio programme will help me through the next few weeks. Have a couple of Halfs coming up.. Roscommon on the 9th Sept and Monaghan the last week of September. Going to try and get another one in. I’m planning on incorporating the Halfs into my last few longer runs by running a mile or two before it and after it and taking the usual race pace down. Reason for it is I simply don’t have the patience for doing long runs at club training and enjoy the atmosphere of races and feel that it pushes me on more. I know a few people who trained for marathons this way and although expensive it did work for them so think I’ll try it (plus I get some nice bling and tshirts along the way!)

Not even thinkin about a time for DCM just looking forward to getting around it with my lungs and knees intact and the atmosphere along the way.. oh and an icy pint of Bulmers at the finish line 😌

juke

sumsar wrote: »

So far I've not encountered any injuries except for pretty bad chafing after my 12 mile at the weekend..

I chose not to do my run tonight and wait for tomorrow in hope that it's somewhat improved rather than risk making it even worse tonight.

I've been whacking sudocrem on, hopefully this time tomorrow I'll have a run done or I'll be very disappointed.

In a slightly positive note.. I think this has been my proper wake up call that I need to cop on and eat healthy as I've been piling on the weight recently and the chafing is the equivalent of me hitting rock bottom ha.

Well.. let's see what happens from here.

Body Glide for the chafing, it works!

cullenswood

Many doing the 10 mile in Kilcock?

I'm on two minds what pace to run it at. Am training normally this week so will not be tapered much, so think I might dial it back to slightly slower than my HM pace. This would still be faster than corresponding 10 mile pace from Macmillan based off my target marathon time.

Or should I just give it socks and go for it all out?

pilot1087

Great following the thread guys, I haven't posted much but have been reading all the reports.

I'm doing ok but need to start stepping up the mileage big time now. Did the R n R 10KM at the weekend. Honestly, I knew I wouldn't have been able to get around the half. Finished in 55 Mins but felt I left a bit out there. What I will say though is it seriously brought the running bug back and reminded me how much I missed race days. So it's full steam ahead now. I have the dingle half in 2 weeks so looking forward to that. Will be trying to hit the LSR target for this weekend.

From reading what you guys are posting, I still think I'm running too fast (for my standard anyway). I know the pace I was holding in the 10KM of about 5Mins 30 per KM wouldn't last me for races that are much longer. Going to try really slowing things down and extending the distances. Planning to work on dropping right back to 6mins 30 / 7 mins per KM this week and see if it works.

Baby75

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Things I learned for Marathon: The water bottle I had was crap- need to review. Tailwind powder I had was interesting, according to the company, you don’t need any gels as this powder is sufficient for all your needs, mixed it with 750ml of water, tasted very syrupy-Jury’s out- anyone else use tailwind? Running the pace I ran today is probably not viable over 26 miles, maybe that will change/improve over next few months.

Yes, I use tailwind and I have found it is all you need, I have found I use a higher concentration and make sure I drink water at water stations but here are some great tips for carrying and using it for LSR and races https://www.facebook.com/tailwindnutrition/photos/a.278015018956779.63288.144378145653801/698448420246768/?type=1&theater! it is the first choice for many ultrarunners my husband is running one in September and is using tailwind

I always had a few jellies more so for something to eat than I needed them for races

juke

I’ve been thinking about the long slow runs. I know I’ve read snippets on threads on here over the years where it was suggested that after ‘x’ time, a LSR is a waste of time. I’ve never really thought about it though, or digested the answers.

Now, before you think this is an attempt to break the plan, it’s not. I dread the PMP sessions far more than the LSR’s. They are daunting, but I hope stubbornness will get me through :cool:

In my own words (always open to correction) the LSR is all about time on my feet, teaching my body to gradually get used to the time and distance, and also to train my body to use fat stores efficiently after glycogen stores get depleted.

For the purpose of a marathon training, physiologically (?) does there come a point in time where there’s only so much time on my feet that is a benefit to my body (eg 3 hours) and, for a plodder like me, the longer distance/time is more of a psychological benefit only, to keep my head in the game come race day?

Not even sure if my question makes sense...

ReeReeG

sumsar wrote: »

So far I've not encountered any injuries except for pretty bad chafing after my 12 mile at the weekend..

I chose not to do my run tonight and wait for tomorrow in hope that it's somewhat improved rather than risk making it even worse tonight.

I've been whacking sudocrem on, hopefully this time tomorrow I'll have a run done or I'll be very disappointed.

In a slightly positive note.. I think this has been my proper wake up call that I need to cop on and eat healthy as I've been piling on the weight recently and the chafing is the equivalent of me hitting rock bottom ha.

Well.. let's see what happens from here.

I buy the Lanacane anti-chafing gel in Boots, which also soothes any chafing if you are buying it after the fact. It's really good stuff, also used it all summer when wearing summer dresses cos no matter how much running I do, these thighs are always gonna meet!

skyblue46

juke wrote: »

I’ve been thinking about the long slow runs. I know I’ve read snippets on threads on here over the years where it was suggested that after ‘x’ time, a LSR is a waste of time. I’ve never really thought about it though, or digested the answers.

Now, before you think this is an attempt to break the plan, it’s not. I dread the PMP sessions far more than the LSR’s. They are daunting, but I hope stubbornness will get me through :cool:

In my own words (always open to correction) the LSR is all about time on my feet, teaching my body to gradually get used to the time and distance, and also to train my body to use fat stores efficiently after glycogen stores get depleted.

For the purpose of a marathon training, physiologically (?) does there come a point in time where there’s only so much time on my feet that is a benefit to my body (eg 3 hours) and, for a plodder like me, the longer distance/time is more of a psychological benefit only, to keep my head in the game come race day?

Not even sure if my question makes sense...

It makes sense. There are differing opinions on the topic. I suppose the question also boils down to whether a person who has never run for longer than 3 hours can in their own heads face into a 5 or 6 hour marathon with any confidence that they can complete the distance? It also must be remembered that plans which top out at 3 hours generally have other days of training specifically tailored to endurance. They will also have back to back days of hard training. These sessions and schedules would be far beyond a novice programme.

corcaigh07

Graduates,

I've decided I'm going to go for small packs of raisins instead of gels as the thought of necking a gel is disgusting to me as well as the nuisance of needing a lot of water to wash it down.

Any advice on how much food you need to take during a marathon? eg amount of carbs needed and when to take them. If it helps, I'm 6 ft tall and about 90 kilos.

skyblue46

corcaigh07 wrote: »

Graduates,

I've decided I'm going to go for small packs of raisins instead of gels as the thought of necking a gel is disgusting to me as well as the nuisance of needing a lot of water to wash it down.

Any advice on how much food you need to take during a marathon? eg amount of carbs needed and when to take them. If it helps, I'm 6 ft tall and about 90 kilos.

About 90g of carbs per hour is needed. There are 79g of carbohydrate in 100g of raisins so you would need at least 125g per hour. They are also a good source of fibre so be well briefed on where the portaloos are around the course!!!

Immediately after the race to best way to begin the recovery process is have food or more likely a drink which contains 1.2g carbs and 0.4g protein per kg of body weight. So you'd need 108g of carbs and 36g of protein. A litre of chocolate milk would do the job.

skyblue46

cullenswood wrote: »

Many doing the 10 mile in Kilcock?

I'm on two minds what pace to run it at. Am training normally this week so will not be tapered much, so think I might dial it back to slightly slower than my HM pace. This would still be faster than corresponding 10 mile pace from Macmillan based off my target marathon time.

Or should I just give it socks and go for it all out?

I'm in the same boat as you and training normally this week. The plan steps back slightly this week which suits. I'm planning to trial a HM pace for Ratoath 3 weeks later...well that's the plan. A rush of blood to the head is very possible!! Haha

happyfriday74

Did an epic run today. Pretty much ran from Baldoyle after work along coast and then up home(stillorgan). Plan was to go as far as dalkey but got this popping in my calf,felt like something was going to pop badly so turned for home at blackrock walked it off and was able to get back up to an ok speed but really nervous of this now.

Also had embarrassing incident where i got the runs at about mile 5 and had to panic stop in a pub. Literally thought i wouldnt make it was such a close call. Blaming tgat on a late i had at about 2 hours before the run

Dealerz2.0

Baby75 wrote: »

Yes, I use tailwind and I have found it is all you need, I have found I use a higher concentration and make sure I drink water at water stations but here are some great tips for carrying and using it for LSR and races https://www.facebook.com/tailwindnutrition/photos/a.278015018956779.63288.144378145653801/698448420246768/?type=1&theater! it is the first choice for many ultrarunners my husband is running one in September and is using tailwind

I always had a few jellies more so for something to eat than I needed them for races

Great, thanks for that

sumsar

juke wrote: »

Body Glide for the chafing, it works!

Thanks, I bought this on Monday after the advice on here, but I believe this is prevention rather than a cure so I'll use it when my thighs are better to prevent from happening again.. for now I'm working on healing my thighs ha.

ReeReeG wrote: »

I buy the Lanacane anti-chafing gel in Boots, which also soothes any chafing if you are buying it after the fact. It's really good stuff, also used it all summer when wearing summer dresses cos no matter how much running I do, these thighs are always gonna meet!

Thanks I'll look into that for this evening so, I've been using sudocrem but at this moment don't think a run would be viable so I'll pop into boots after work and get that and try a run with it.. hopefully goes well as I don't want to delay my runs too much.

corcaigh07

skyblue46 wrote: »

About 90g of carbs per hour is needed. There are 79g of carbohydrate in 100g of raisins so you would need at least 125g per hour. They are also a good source of fibre so be well briefed on where the portaloos are around the course!!!

Immediately after the race to best way to begin the recovery process is have food or more likely a drink which contains 1.2g carbs and 0.4g protein per kg of body weight. So you'd need 108g of carbs and 36g of protein. A litre of chocolate milk would do the job.

Using your example and let’s say I do a 4 hour marathon (will probably be more but 4 hours is easier maths), does that mean 500g of carbs is needed? Seems like a lot!

When would you start the snacking process and how often or is that more of a personal preference? I was thinking something simple like start after 30 mins and continue every 30 mins after that.

Appreciate the advice!

juke

skyblue46 wrote: »

It makes sense. There are differing opinions on the topic. I suppose the question also boils down to whether a person who has never run for longer than 3 hours can in their own heads face into a 5 or 6 hour marathon with any confidence that they can complete the distance? It also must be remembered that plans which top out at 3 hours generally have other days of training specifically tailored to endurance. They will also have back to back days of hard training. These sessions and schedules would be far beyond a novice programme.

Thanks. Just getting it clear in my head, I guess.

Like I said, not thinking of going off plan, but when I'm plodding along happily on my LSR - it will be good to remind myself of the whys

Aoifemcc19

juke wrote: »

I’ve been thinking about the long slow runs. I know I’ve read snippets on threads on here over the years where it was suggested that after ‘x’ time, a LSR is a waste of time. I’ve never really thought about it though, or digested the answers.

Now, before you think this is an attempt to break the plan, it’s not. I dread the PMP sessions far more than the LSR’s. They are daunting, but I hope stubbornness will get me through :cool:

In my own words (always open to correction) the LSR is all about time on my feet, teaching my body to gradually get used to the time and distance, and also to train my body to use fat stores efficiently after glycogen stores get depleted.

For the purpose of a marathon training, physiologically (?) does there come a point in time where there’s only so much time on my feet that is a benefit to my body (eg 3 hours) and, for a plodder like me, the longer distance/time is more of a psychological benefit only, to keep my head in the game come race day?

Not even sure if my question makes sense...

A good friend, who’s a long time runner, suggested this to me too recently, my reaction was a deer in headlights look!!! I decided to politely ignore her ;-) if I’m aiming for 4.40 marathon that’s a lot of time on my feet that I won’t have covered in advance and I think I would just DREAD the actually day way more!! I’m happy plodding along ticking off miles on my spreadsheet and Keeping my head straight about it all!!

juke

Aoifemcc19 wrote: »

A good friend, who’s a long time runner, suggested this to me too recently, my reaction was a deer in headlights look!!! I decided to politely ignore her ;-) if I’m aiming for 4.40 marathon that’s a lot of time on my feet that I won’t have covered in advance and I think I would just DREAD the actually day way more!! I’m happy plodding along ticking off miles on my spreadsheet and Keeping my head straight about it all!!

Yeah, understand why we do it, and keep going!

skyblue46

corcaigh07 wrote: »

Using your example and let’s say I do a 4 hour marathon (will probably be more but 4 hours is easier maths), does that mean 500g of carbs is needed? Seems like a lot!

When would you start the snacking process and how often or is that more of a personal preference? I was thinking something simple like start after 30 mins and continue every 30 mins after that.

Appreciate the advice!

No it means 360g of carbs. It is the most recent research. Prior to that the thinking was about 60g per hour but for efforts over 2.5 hours it is now suggested at 90 per hour.

aloooof

skyblue46 wrote: »

About 90g of carbs per hour is needed. There are 79g of carbohydrate in 100g of raisins so you would need at least 125g per hour. They are also a good source of fibre so be well briefed on where the portaloos are around the course!!!

Immediately after the race to best way to begin the recovery process is have food or more likely a drink which contains 1.2g carbs and 0.4g protein per kg of body weight. So you'd need 108g of carbs and 36g of protein. A litre of chocolate milk would do the job.

Ok, so I'm about 75 kg. So I'd need about 90g of carbs. Quick google shows me there's 18.2g in a pint of Guinness, so after DCM, I need to drink about 5 pints? Am I doing this right?? :pac:

In all seriousness, this is quality info, really useful to know.

corcaigh07

skyblue46 wrote: »

No it means 360g of carbs. It is the most recent research. Prior to that the thinking was about 60g per hour but for efforts over 2.5 hours it is now suggested at 90 per hour.

Opps, confused grams of carbs and grams of raisins!

I’ll road test the raisins soon and see how I get on.

ariana`

corcaigh07 wrote: »

Using your example and let’s say I do a 4 hour marathon (will probably be more but 4 hours is easier maths), does that mean 500g of carbs is needed? Seems like a lot!

When would you start the snacking process and how often or is that more of a personal preference? I was thinking something simple like start after 30 mins and continue every 30 mins after that.

Appreciate the advice!

I went with every 45 mins last year and that's the advice i'd give to most of you. The basis of this being that you should have enough glycogen starting off for roughly 90 mins, it's take about 30 mins for the fuel you ingest to take effect. So by taking it at 45 mins it should take effect about 1hr 15mins into your run and before you have depleted the stores you had starting off. I would suggest you try this approach of a couple of your long runs over the coming weeks.

Kellygirl

ariana` wrote: »

I went with every 45 mins last year and that's the advice i'd give to most of you. The basis of this being that you should have enough glycogen starting off for roughly 90 mins, it's take about 30 mins for the fuel you ingest to take effect. So by taking it at 45 mins it should take effect about 1hr 15mins into your run and before you have depleted the stores you had starting off. I would suggest you try this approach of a couple of your long runs over the coming weeks.

And to add to that I had a caffeine one that I timed to take a few miles before Heartbreak hill just to give me an added boost - possibly psychological but you could practice with one of them too.

Dealerz2.0

ariana` wrote: »

I went with every 45 mins last year and that's the advice i'd give to most of you. The basis of this being that you should have enough glycogen starting off for roughly 90 mins, it's take about 30 mins for the fuel you ingest to take effect. So by taking it at 45 mins it should take effect about 1hr 15mins into your run and before you have depleted the stores you had starting off. I would suggest you try this approach of a couple of your long runs over the coming weeks.

ok, I think we need to define snacking real quick before I bring a bag of kimberly and fig roll biscuits on saturdays LSR

ariana`

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

ok, I think we need to define snacking real quick before I bring a bag of kimberly and fig roll biscuits on saturdays LSR

If you bring a bag of kimberly and fig roll biscuits we might all join your on your LSR

Typically gels are a bit easier to manage though! Kinetica is one brand/flavour but there are loads of alternatives. There are also alternatives to gels, such as GU Chews or Tailwind is another alternative. Gels tend to be the most popular but it's a case of trying them out to see what suits you best.

In Dublin the supporters are great for handing out jellies and fruit too, i wouldn't be suggesting relying on them for energy but i did find they were a nice alternative to gels.

Hedgehoggy

Lots of discussion of gels and nutrition - I've been bringing different things with me on my LSRs depending on whats in the cupboard, raisins, crackers, rice cakes, etc - which are usually raided out of the toddlers food supplies.... In fact one day I took one of those baby fruit pouches (apple) with me which had been sitting in the cupboard for ages and it was really handy, easy to carry, eat - would probably look a bit funny carrying baby food around the marathon course though!


Like others I dont like the thought of gels myself - but I get that they are very convenient so I'm thinking of giving them a go. Just wondering from others experiences do they help you feel like you have something in your stomach - like do they stop you from feeling hungry?



I'm asking this as on my LSRs there have been times when I've got that gnaw of hunger. Now I have been doing these early and with only a small bite to eat or nothing beforehand - which I wont do on the day - so maybe hunger pangs wouldnt be an issue..... but what I've found is that the food that I have been bringing has been useful for satiating that feeling, making me feel like there is something in my tummy, even if its just a small quantity - I cant imagine that gels would give you that feeling?



Sorry for long post!

Naked Lepper

going to buy new runners this week. can anyone recommend a good place to go that does not cost a fortune
the ones I have been using for the past year (relatively cheap generic under armour shoes) are well past their sell by date so now is a good time to invest in a new pair as we are 10 weeks out from the DCM

Huzzah!

skyblue46 wrote: »

Ok folks I'll throw this out there and see what ye can come up with. I think a get together might be a nice idea for ye. I'm free the weekend of the 25/26th and would love to meet some of the gang for a little run. I know some do long runs on a Saturday, some on a Sunday.....maybe a meet for a gentle recovery jog would be best. It'd give you a chance to put names to faces before the Frank Duffy. So the ball is in your court, tell me what day to meet ye!

Did this ever go anywhere or was the kibosh put on it because of the Pope's visit?

aloooof

Naked Lepper wrote: »

going to buy new runners this week. can anyone recommend a good place to go that does not cost a fortune
the ones I have been using for the past year (relatively cheap generic under armour shoes) are well past their sell by date so now is a good time to invest in a new pair as we are 10 weeks out from the DCM

If you're in Dublin, I got my last pair in Run Logic in Temple Bar. May not be the cheapest, but they do a gait analysis as well and seem sound in there.

RayCun

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

one day I took one of those baby fruit pouches (apple) with me which had been sitting in the cupboard for ages and it was really handy, easy to carry, eat

that's basically a gel
a gel will usually have more simple carbohydrates - sugar - than baby food, but it's the same idea

On race day, I would eat a real breakfast, a couple of hours before the start. That's something worth practicing on at least one LSR - get up at 7, have breakfast, then hang around for an hour or more before going out to run.

I generally have something like a bottle of Lucozade and a banana on my way in to the race.

I don't think you can plan to replenish all your glycogen during the race. You have to strike a balance between eating enough to postpone depletion and eating so much that you get sick. I usually plan to take 4 gels (6, 12, 18, 21 miles, before the water stations so I can wash them down), the thicker gels not isogels. That's about as much as I could stomach, and as much as I want to be carrying.