Abortion ref - am I the only one who doesn't care?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

It's one thing to make a deliberate decision not to vote because you genuinely cannot make up your mind which way to go.
But just deciding 'nah, not interested' is different.
On a purely personal level, the outcome of the referendum is not going to affect me. But it will affect the society I am living in and it's important to consider the issue and try and come to a decision on which way to vote.

yourdeadwright

Noo wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Iv read up and I'm still not sure what I think so iv decided against voting on this , Normally id be in the you should always cast a vote but I really can't decide so I'm going to leave it to the good people of the country and live with what they decide,
I just hope down the road in life that I don't come into a situation where I regret it but that could be either way, 
I think there are valid points  for both side in this argument,

I can understand how many types of situations could arise regarding the women in your life where you regret voting no. But i cant think of any situation where you would later regret voting yes.

Well you obviously don't have a very good imagination ,there are so many situation that could occur both way's , below is just one,
"Girl's in a great relationship get pregnant is delighted can't wait, Boyfriend freaks out and forces her into an abortion that she wants to keep ( easier as he doesn't have to fly her to England)  
"

Zubeneschamali

Even if I didn't care about this issue, I would vote Yes just for the satisfaction of voting against Iona, John Waters, Declan Ganley and their whole mob of pre-Vatican II troglodytes.

In fact that satisfaction is the only real effect of my vote - it's one in a million that it makes the slightest difference to the outcome.

freshpopcorn

One of the reasons I know why people are struggling is with the twelve week limit.
If they were voting to allow abortion up to twelve weeks. They'd do it no problem and allow fatal fetal abnormalities outside of this time limit.
However they don't trust the government to keep the twelve week limit because of how a lot of them went from being pro=life TD's to being repeal TD's in the space of a few years and they wonder what will there views be like in a few years.

end of the road

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its a strange one because there are thousand who have been effected by the 8th and deserve better but the thousand who will be effected by removing it will never have a voice so , its kind of lose lose in my eyes,

maybe something to think about. maybe going with whatever your gut instinct tells you on the day could be an option? if you still feel that you can't vote then by all means don't, but my view would be not to totally rule it out.

yourdeadwright

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its a strange one because there are thousand who have been effected by the 8th and deserve better  but the thousand who will be effected by removing it will never have a voice so , its kind of lose lose  in my eyes,

What, you think thousands of fetusses would like to protest at being aborted n Ireland instead of England?

I suppose at least they get a trip abroad out of the 8th, it's not much but...

Could you imagine in this world that not everyone would hold the same beliefs as yourself,

freshpopcorn

Faith Odd Whistle wrote: »

On a purely personal level, the outcome of the referendum is not going to affect me. But it will affect the society I am living in and it's important to consider the issue and try and come to a decision on which way to vote.

Yes, it's another thing that has people torn of how society will turn out. People want abortions for those in need/crises pregnancies/etc but they don't want to end up like the Canada/UK either!

SusieBlue

freshpopcorn wrote: »

One of the reasons I know why people are struggling is with the twelve week limit.
If they were voting to allow abortion up to twelve weeks. They'd do it no problem and allow fatal fetal abnormalities outside of this time limit.
However they don't trust the government to keep the twelve week limit because of how a lot of them went from being pro=life TD's to being repeal TD's in the space of a few years and they wonder what will there views be like in a few years.

We aren't going to go from being a country with one of the strictest, most conservative abortion laws to a free for all over night.

Its taken 35 years for the government to even address this, there is currently no public appetite for a longer limit than the 12 week recommendation, so I don't see why a politician would lobby to increase that - short of wanting to commit career suicide.

91% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester, even in countries with extremely liberal laws. Any that occur later are usually for heartbreaking reasons such as FFA or threat to the health of the mother.

I have faith in women that they aren't just going to get sick of the heartburn when they're 7 months pregnant and feck off for a lunch time abortion because she can't be arsed any more - that's the narrative that the anti-choicers are pushing.
I'd love to know who these phantom women are because despite knowing women from a wide range of ages, backgrounds, cultures etc. I don't know a single one who I think would do that.

Martina1991

taserfrank wrote:

I won't be bothered voting- I couldn't give a damn about this referendum, even though it would have been funny to see the meltdown of the left if they lost!

You think it's funny for Irish women to suffer and have their health put at risk?

All you seem to post about is the referendum yet you're apparently not bothered.

_Dara_

freshpopcorn wrote: »

One of the reasons I know why people are struggling is with the twelve week limit.
If they were voting to allow abortion up to twelve weeks. They'd do it no problem and allow fatal fetal abnormalities outside of this time limit.
However they don't trust the government to keep the twelve week limit because of how a lot of them went from being pro=life TD's to being repeal TD's in the space of a few years and they wonder what will there views be like in a few years.

Ireland is still conservative in many ways. It will be a long, long time before we see euthanasia in this country, if we ever do, for example.

Ireland is not going to go from no abortion to late term abortions. If late term abortions were legislated for, I’d expect the government that oversaw it to be swiftly booted at the next general election.

This “but who knows what the limits will be” scaremongering gets on my nerves, to be honest. Use your heads!

freshpopcorn

SusieBlue wrote: »

We aren't going to go from being a country with one of the strictest, most conservative abortion laws to a free for all over night.

Its taken 35 years for the government to even address this, there is currently no public appetite for a longer limit than the 12 week recommendation, so I don't see why a politician would lobby to increase that - short of wanting to commit career suicide.

91% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester, even in countries with extremely liberal laws. Any that occur later are usually for heartbreaking reasons such as FFA or threat to the health of the mother.

I have faith in women that they aren't just going to get sick of the heartburn when they're 7 months pregnant and feck off for a lunch time abortion because she can't be arsed any more - that's the narrative that the anti-choicers are pushing.
I'd love to know who these phantom women are because despite knowing women from a wide range of ages, backgrounds, cultures etc. I don't know a single one who I think would do that.

It's an issue I've seen people have and there's not much I can do about that if the twelve week limit was in the constitution they'd gladly support it without any issue. They were pro=choice before Leo, the two Simon's, Michael but it's something at the back of their minds that is causing them issues!

_Dara_

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It's an issue I've seen people have and there's not much I can do about that if the twelve week limit was in the constitution they'd gladly support it without any issue. They were pro=choice before Leo, the two Simon's, Michael but it's something at the back of their minds that is causing them issues!

Anyone who cites worries about the limits as a reason to vote no - I’d have trouble believing that they were ever thinking of voting yes. I’d question their motives tbh. Trying to sow seeds of doubt in the minds of others, perhaps?

yourdeadwright

_Dara_ wrote: »

freshpopcorn wrote: »

One of the reasons I know why people are struggling is with the twelve week limit.
If they were voting to allow abortion up to twelve weeks. They'd do it no problem and allow fatal fetal abnormalities outside of this time limit.
However they don't trust the government to keep the twelve week limit because of how a lot of them went from being pro=life TD's to being repeal TD's in the space of a few years and they wonder what will there views be like in a few years.

Ireland is still conservative in many ways. It will be a long, long time before we see euthanasia in this country, if we ever do, for example.

Ireland is not going to go from no abortion to late term abortions. If late term abortions were legislated for, I’d expect the government that oversaw it to be swiftly booted at the next general election.

This “but who knows what the limits will be” scaremongering gets on my nerves, to be honest. Use your heads!

I lived for a brief few year in a housing estate in northern England, and abortion was like treated a headache tablet to people, Its just put a really bad taste in the mouth ,
I
'd imagine most modern  people do agree with it in certain case's but people worry about it becoming to frequent ,
Again I know its a women's choice but id imagine its where most the no vote comes from .,
I'm not on either side as I have my own reason to see the good and bad in both ,

The Bishop Basher

_Dara_ wrote: »

Ireland is still conservative in many ways. It will be a long, long time before we see euthanasia in this country, if we ever do, for example.

I wish this was about euthanasia.. It affects far more people..

It's something I intend to actively campaign for at some point..

Every poll i've ever seen shows overwhelming support for it but I agree that we won't see it for decades if at all.

The fact that the government won't tackle something which so many people want shows a serious disconnect between us and them..

I wouldn't trust them to wipe my arse to be honest and I don't trust them on this issue which is a problem..

_Dara_

Swanner wrote: »

I wish this was about euthanasia.. It affects far more people..

It's something I intend to actively campaign for at some point..

Every poll i've ever seen shows overwhelming support for it but I agree that we won't see it for decades if at all.

The fact that the government won't tackle something which so many people want shows a serious disconnect between us and them..

I wouldn't trust them to wipe my arse to be honest and I don't trust them on this issue which is a problem..

Euthanasia is illegal almost everywhere. The Irish government aren’t untrustworthy because they won’t tackle it. It’s very much the status quo.

andekwarhola

DaveyDave wrote: »

At least you have the option to not vote. These women don't have a choice to get an abortion.

I think it's pretty childish to not vote. You don't have to care about it to vote, it's got nothing to do with social media either. I'm not engaging in any social media or conversation at work about it.

I'll be there to vote Yes. It's fine if people disagree with abortion but the fact of the matter is this vote is to do with giving women choice.



You're a great addition to our society...

You should concern yourself with your own vote, not anybody else's, or lack of. Your jurisdiction ends with your own vote.

That's not a partisan comment either as I'm voting Yes. That's my personal choice and I'm not hectoring anybody else about their choice.

The One Doctor

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Couldn’t give a sh1t. Housing and health far more important. Probably will vote yes if I can bother my arse to get out there.

Yup, me too.

andekwarhola

DaveyDave wrote: »

At least you have the option to not vote. These women don't have a choice to get an abortion.

I think it's pretty childish to not vote. You don't have to care about it to vote, it's got nothing to do with social media either. I'm not engaging in any social media or conversation at work about it.

I'll be there to vote Yes. It's fine if people disagree with abortion but the fact of the matter is this vote is to do with giving women choice.



You're a great addition to our society...

You should concern yourself with your own vote, not anybody else's, or lack of. Your jurisdiction ends with your own vote.

That's not a partisan comment either as I'm voting Yes. That's my personal choice and I'm not hectoring anybody else about their choice even if I don't personally agree with pro lifers or people that won't exercise the vote in this case.

Squatter

Hitman3000 wrote: »

As an aside are you able to make a point without the snide attack?

Normally yes. But I found it reasonably easy to make an exception for you in the light of your crass response.

_Dara_

andekwarhola wrote: »

You should concern yourself with your own vote, not anybody else's, or lack of. Your jurisdiction ends with your own vote.

That's not a partisan comment either as I'm voting Yes. That's my personal choice and I'm not hectoring anybody else about their choice even if I don't personally agree with pro lifers or people that won't won't exercise the vote in this case.

Hectoring is not good but I have no problem with people encouraging others to vote. Encouraging and hectoring are not mutually inclusive.

andekwarhola

_Dara_ wrote: »

Hectoring is not good but I have no problem with people encouraging others to vote. Encouraging and hectoring are not mutually inclusive.

True.

Although Im glad in my life so far that any encouragement I've experienced didn't take the form of being told I'm childish and a 'great addition to society'.

Zubeneschamali

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Could you imagine in this world that not everyone would hold the same beliefs as yourself,

Indeed, they believe in the oppressive Ireland of the 1930s and I don't.

That's why I like to kick them right in the ballot box where it hurts.

The Bishop Basher

_Dara_ wrote: »

Euthanasia is illegal almost everywhere. The Irish government aren’t untrustworthy because they won’t tackle it. It’s very much the status quo.

They were delighted to be the first with a smoking ban or at least to claim it..

We were all delighted to be the first to recognise gay marriage, or at least to claim it..

Someone has to make the first move on euthanasia.. (or second)..

Anyway, it's a separate topic for another day..

_Dara_

Swanner wrote: »

They were delighted to be the first with a smoking ban or at least to claim it..

We were all delighted to be the first to recognise gay marriage, or at least to claim it..

Someone has to make the first move on euthanasia.. (or

None of this makes them untrustworthy. Ireland is not going to from no abortion to a free-for-all. And if they do, the electorate will let the government know their displeasure and the free-for-all will end. It’s truly frustrating to witness people planting doubts in the minds of others about things that won’t come to pass.

The Bishop Basher

_Dara_ wrote: »

None of this makes them untrustworthy. Ireland is not going to from no abortion to a free-for-all. And if they do, the electorate will let the government know their displeasure and the free-for-all will end. It’s truly frustrating to witness people planting doubts in the minds of others about things that won’t come to pass.

You don’t know that though.. you’re making assumptions about the future that you can’t possibly make with any reasonable certainty..

I still don’t know how I’m going to vote, I’m very undecided..

But I do know that I don’t trust this government in any way shape or form or on any level to make decisions in my best interest or the best interest of it’s citizens.

I’ve formed that opinion based solely on watching them screw us over time and time again for the last 40 years or so and I don’t see any reason why they would suddenly became trustworthy or competent now.

I see a loony lefty hardcore with this dangerous politically correct ideology on the rise and growing rapidly to the point that I could see them ruling us in 20 years or so and that’s a terrifying prospect.

Unfortunately that presents a huge problem for me and it’s one the reasons I will consider voting against.

It might be frustrating for you but that’s how I feel and it’s taken decades of being shafted by sucessive governments for me to get to that point.

Fool me once and all that..

Ave Sodalis

Swanner wrote:

You don’t know that though.. you’re making assumptions about the future that you can’t possibly make with any reasonable certainty..

To be fair, the government can also do things like reduce the age of consent to 5 without a referendum. They aren't going to do something that puts their position at risk.

Swanner wrote:

I see a loony lefty hardcore with this dangerous politically correct ideology on the rise and growing rapidly to the point that I could see them ruling us in 20 years or so and that’s a terrifying prospect.

Abortion has been legal in many countries for longer than 20 years, without major issues.

_Dara_

Swanner wrote: »

But I do know that I don’t trust this government in any way shape or form or on any level to make decisions in my best interest or the best interest of it’s citizens.

The government does that all the time, every day. As citizens, we give the elected government that power. You, me, everyone. There are no referenda on legislation. And thank god for that.

Ubbquittious

Whether one gets an abortion here or a few 100km away, it doesn't really matter. Where there is a will there's a way

I bet after all the fuss the referendum gets passed and you'll still see people going to UK and elsewhere because it's cheaper or better to get one there.

The Bishop Basher

_Dara_ wrote: »

The government does that all the time, every day. As citizens, we give the elected government that power. You, me, everyone. There are no referenda on legislation. And thank god for that.

Legastively speaking, the 32nd Dail has been the least productive Dail since the foundation of the state.

Actually I tell a lie, they take joint last place with the 13th Dail.

Aside from this amendment, I’m not sure people realise just how little governing we have going on right now

We are in auto pilot

Hitman3000

Swanner wrote:

It might be frustrating for you but that’s how I feel and it’s taken decades of being shafted by sucessive governments for me to get to that point.

The Government of the day can propose any legislation but ultimately it's up to the individual to decide. Do you not trust women?

JRant

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The Government of the day can propose any legislation but ultimately it's up to the individual to decide. Do you not trust women?

What a silly proposition that is. I've seen those posters with "Trust Women" on them and I can only think they didn't put a lot of thought into that slogan. It makes absolutely no sense, as any person with more than 2 brain cells to rub together should know that you would be very foolish to trust anyone just on the basis of their genitalia.

I'll be giving a hard yes come ballot day but it won't have anything to do with "trusting women". I firmly believe that a constitutional amendment has no basis interfering with the healthcare of expectant mother's. I also have great sympathy for all the parents who have to travel abroad to have a medical procedure that should be available here.

My biggest concern is that this government will drag their heels on getting workable legislation passed. I also worry about the standard of care that will be given here. Considering that thousands have to travel to get basic procedures carried out I fear adding another few thousand to waiting lists will have a terrible effect on the patients waiting, especially if there is a 12 week limit put in place. Christ it can take twice that lenght of time just to get a first consultation.

Regarding the OP, I fully understand where you are coming from as voter apathy has been slowly creeping in for a long time now. There are many in your situation that just don't care. It would be cool if you changed your mind but I would be against anyone lecturing you for feeling that way.

JeffKenna

Swanner wrote: »

Legastively speaking, the 32nd Dail has been the least productive Dail since the foundation of the state.

Actually I tell a lie, they take joint last place with the 13th Dail.

Aside from this amendment, I’m not sure people realise just how little governing we have going on right now

We are in auto pilot

Hence why apathy has crept in to this vote. I'm sick and tired of Harris using this as a hobby horse to distract us from the appalling job he's doing in Health.

PandaPoo

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Whether one gets an abortion here or a few 100km away, it doesn't really matter. Where there is a will there's a way

I bet after all the fuss the referendum gets passed and you'll still see people going to UK and elsewhere because it's cheaper or better to get one there.

I thought of that too, going abroad means you're less likely to be recognised! Either way it will be an interesting result

limnam

The only discussion I've had is about the lack of creativity in the "yes" campaign for the posters. They're really shiote.

The no campaign are fairly clever, pulling on the heart strings etc

But not many in my circle seem to care one way or another.

decky1

A Pint of Goo wrote: »

I really don't care which side wins. I'm not registered and won't be voting. I barely go on Facebook these days because I'm sick of seeing posts about abortion. In work I have people trying to tease out which side I'm on and my response of 'don't know' seems to disappoint them.

I surely can't be the only one who doesn't give a toss about the outcome?

I don't think you are, i can't say i don't care but i think it is up to the person in that situation to make up their own mind , their the one's that have to live with their choice, what kind of money has been spent on this referendum, why should some of society tell the other's what they can and can't do.:mad:

erica74

limnam wrote: »

The only discussion I've had is about the lack of creativity in the "yes" campaign for the posters. They're really shiote.

The no campaign are fairly clever, pulling on the heart strings etc

But not many in my circle seem to care one way or another.

What do you think the posters should say?

The Bishop Basher

JRant wrote: »

What a silly proposition that is. I've seen those posters with "Trust Women" on them and I can only think they didn't put a lot of thought into that slogan. It makes absolutely no sense, as any person with more than 2 brain cells to rub together should know that you would be very foolish to trust anyone just on the basis of their genitalia.

I was trying to figure out how to respond to such a ridiculous question but you did so far more eloquently and succinctly then I could.

Thank you :pac:

limnam

erica74 wrote: »

What do you think the posters should say?

A bit like the OP I don't particularly care.

I was just stating that the "no" posters make people stop and think and could potentially turn a yes into a no IMHO.

For example I'd never have thought of a babies heart beat after 20 days.

The "Yes" posters don't use any creativity to turn a no into a yes.

OldMrBrennan83

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erica74

limnam wrote: »

A bit like the OP I don't particularly care.

I was just stating that the "no" posters make people stop and think and could potentially turn a yes into a no IMHO.

For example I'd never have thought of a babies heart beat after 20 days.

The "Yes" posters don't use any creativity to turn a no into a yes.

A baby having a heart beat after 20 days doesn't make any difference to a woman who may need an abortion. Do you think a woman who needs an abortion isn't aware of what stage her pregnancy is at or at what stage of development her baby is at? If she wants or needs an abortion, all that matters is that she has access to safe medical care here in Ireland. Trust every woman to make the right decision for her. Repeal the 8th.

The Bishop Basher

decky1 wrote: »

why should some of society tell the other's what they can and can't do.:mad:

Generally speaking that's a fair statement but with a topic as emotive, moral and ethical as abortion is, it's never going to be that simple.

We ALL have a right to say what we believe should or shouldn't be allowed or acceptable in this state.

If you struggle with that then you have a fundamental issue with democracy.

_Dara_

Swanner wrote: »

Legastively speaking, the 32nd Dail has been the least productive Dail since the foundation of the state.

Actually I tell a lie, they take joint last place with the 13th Dail.

Aside from this amendment, I’m not sure people realise just how little governing we have going on right now

We are in auto pilot

That’s super. They’re going through an inactive period. But that could change. And you and I and everyone are cognisant of that fact. We allow it.

Johngoose

I think it’s a handy smoke screen for Fine Gael, when there are a raft of more pressing issues. The H.S.E. and housing are surely more important. Is having a referendum on abortion not implying that all other issues are sorted? I mean a return flight to a u.k. city could be sorted for €60. How about people unable to afford to rent or buy houses in the current market? Is that not a bigger issue?

limnam

erica74 wrote: »

A baby having a heart beat after 20 days doesn't make any difference to a woman who may need an abortion.

But it might to a random voter passing it by and reading it. Which was the point.

erica74 wrote: »

Do you think a woman who needs an abortion isn't aware of what stage her pregnancy is at or at what stage of development her baby is at?

What does it have to do with for example a man walking by the poster?

What has your points got to do with mine? I'm not talking about a woman needing an abortion. I'm talking about clever wording on a poster to change a voters opinion.

erica74 wrote: »

If she wants or needs an abortion, all that matters is that she has access to safe medical care here in Ireland.

I don't see what this has to do with the posters.

erica74 wrote: »

Trust every woman to make the right decision for her. Repeal the 8th.

Are you trying to canvas me on thread?

erica74

Johngoose wrote: »

I think it’s a handy smoke screen for Fine Gael, when there are a raft of more pressing issues. The H.S.E. and housing are surely more important. Is having a referendum on abortion not implying that all other issues are sorted? I mean a return flight to a u.k. city could be sorted for €60. How about people unable to afford to rent or buy houses in the current market? Is that not a bigger issue?

And what about the other associated costs??

Ash.J.Williams

Johngoose wrote: »

I think it’s a handy smoke screen for Fine Gael, when there are a raft of more pressing issues. The H.S.E. and housing are surely more important. Is having a referendum on abortion not implying that all other issues are sorted? I mean a return flight to a u.k. city could be sorted for €60. How about people unable to afford to rent or buy houses in the current market? Is that not a bigger issue?

An abortion isn't a fun weekend away

erica74

limnam wrote: »

But it might to a random voter passing it by and reading it. Which was the point.



What does it have to do with for example a man walking by the poster?

What has your points got to do with mine? I'm not talking about a woman needing an abortion. I'm talking about clever wording on a poster to change a voters opinion.



I don't see what this has to do with the posters.



Are you trying to canvas me on thread?

Are you more concerned about posters than the actual referendum?

limnam

erica74 wrote: »

Are you more concerned about posters than the actual referendum?

I'm not concerned about the referendum at all.

Isn't that the point of this thread?

Hitman3000

JRant wrote:

What a silly proposition that is. I've seen those posters with "Trust Women" on them and I can only think they didn't put a lot of thought into that slogan. It makes absolutely no sense, as any person with more than 2 brain cells to rub together should know that you would be very foolish to trust anyone just on the basis of their genitalia.

Since it only women that can get pregnant it is only relevant to a specific set of genitalia. As for trust women it is asking that you give a woman full autonomy over their own bodies. Do you assume every pregnant woman will suddenly want an abortion after legislation has been enacted assuming the 8th is appealed.

OldMrBrennan83

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