Customer not paying

Gerry T

For background, I took on a small job, circa €2000, provision of parts and labour. Don't want to get into detailed specifics, unless you feel you need to know more.
I got an order from a company renovating and selling a number of houses. My material was supplied and labour completed. I sent an invoice but I've been chasing payment now for 4 months, this guy won't reply to texts, viber, phone calls, emails. Total blank.
I didn't receive any written instruction to proceed, like a purchase order, but there is a string of emails where I outlined price, material, labour etc prior to starting. I have emails from him sending me info on his other suppliers so I could do some design work on my system. I met him a number of times at the house and demonstrated the working system.
I know it's not smart to proceed without a written instruction agreeing price and terms but this was a small job. Everything above board, I sent a vat invoice.
Just wondering what steps are open to me, such as a solicitor, or filing a small court claim, selling debt to a debt collector. Some of these options may just burn the 2k though. SO I'm not looking for advice but more if you have any idea on possible options or if something similar happened to you and you could share your story.

grahamor

A solicitor could probably offer advice before you commit to anything that you'll need to pay for.

Legal costs could probably be claimed if it turns out you have a valid case.

jacksn

Stubbs Gazette have a handy demand letter generator, costs about €30.. I've found it to work every time i've used it

https://www.stubbsgazette.ie/demand-letters/order

Gerry T

grahamor wrote: »

A solicitor could probably offer advice before you commit to anything that you'll need to pay for.

Legal costs could probably be claimed if it turns out you have a valid case.

Thanks, but I might look into the stubbs letter as a first step, seems a good idea and not expensive

pedroeibar1

Gerry T wrote: »

SO I'm not looking for advice but more if you have any idea on possible options or if something similar happened to you and you could share your story.

OP, if a person set out to go about doing something the wrong way you unfortunately have ticked all the boxes.
The success rate for debt collection diminishes with time. You are now 4+ months into the deal.
You did not state in the post what credit terms were agreed.
You talk about 'him' and a 'company'. Big difference, with whom did you have the contract (even a verbal one)?
You did not state what service/product you provided.
Are the houses for sale or sold?
Can the goods' be retrieved?

In your position I would call on him physically, forget phone/text, etc, he is laughing at them (and you). Forget small claims court, debt collectors, Stubbs and solicitors. Act faster and prepare yourself for writing off the 2k.

corcaigh1

Gerry T wrote: »

For background, I took on a small job, circa €2000, provision of parts and labour. Don't want to get into detailed specifics, unless you feel you need to know more.
I got an order from a company renovating and selling a number of houses. My material was supplied and labour completed. I sent an invoice but I've been chasing payment now for 4 months, this guy won't reply to texts, viber, phone calls, emails. Total blank.
I didn't receive any written instruction to proceed, like a purchase order, but there is a string of emails where I outlined price, material, labour etc prior to starting. I have emails from him sending me info on his other suppliers so I could do some design work on my system. I met him a number of times at the house and demonstrated the working system.
I know it's not smart to proceed without a written instruction agreeing price and terms but this was a small job. Everything above board, I sent a vat invoice.
Just wondering what steps are open to me, such as a solicitor, or filing a small court claim, selling debt to a debt collector. Some of these options may just burn the 2k though. SO I'm not looking for advice but more if you have any idea on possible options or if something similar happened to you and you could share your story.

You seem to have given this chap every opportunity to pay up, you know where his house is.

If it was me I would...

Gloomtastic!

Or call out to the latest job he has, shouting very loudly that you still haven’t been paid since x-date. Watch all the subs walk off site. Only shout out the facts. Tell him you’ll be back everyday until you have been paid in full.

Good luck to you!

enricoh

What gloomtastic says. Email, Viber - haha, not a snowball's. Make enough racket n u'll get paid.

Gerry T

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

OP, if a person set out to go about doing something the wrong way you unfortunately have ticked all the boxes.
The success rate for debt collection diminishes with time. You are now 4+ months into the deal.
You did not state in the post what credit terms were agreed.
You talk about 'him' and a 'company'. Big difference, with whom did you have the contract (even a verbal one)?
You did not state what service/product you provided.
Are the houses for sale or sold?
Can the goods' be retrieved?

In your position I would call on him physically, forget phone/text, etc, he is laughing at them (and you). Forget small claims court, debt collectors, Stubbs and solicitors. Act faster and prepare yourself for writing off the 2k.

Your dead right, I'm an awful edjit. On larger projects (circa 40k) I'll review T&C's, tie a discount to payment terms, only proceed with a written PO or contract, I'll furnish order ack's. Big lesson here as I do think my chance of recovery is slim at best.
To answer your questions:
I offered a written quote with 30 day's net payment. but nothing agreed.
Quote was addressed to a company, sent to a company email address (I checked CRO and it is a Ltd. company) but I suspect it's a 1 or 2 man band.

House was a large show house, finished to a very high standard, which is for sale. My kit is in this house.
Technically the kit can be retrieved very easily, it's a wireless heating control system so small lightweight components.

Currently I operate as a sole trader but I'm in the process of moving to a Ltd. company as my business is moving from 100% consulting to 20% projects, and the risks associated with that are far greater. A very long story but the consulting I was doing was on a basis of zero risk to myself so sole trader suited.

Gerry T

corcaigh1 wrote: »

You seem to have given this chap every opportunity to pay up, you know where his house is.

If it was me I would...

I'm afraid to call around and what I might do, I wouldn't want it to turn nasty for the sake of 2k. I brought a lot of this on my own head. I Invoiced late, as in I should have got an invoice out when I shipped material. It was 2 mth's before I went to set it up :rolleyes: I could have said I would't attend until payment was received.

duploelabs

Are they on Social Media?

Gerry T

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Or call out to the latest job he has, shouting very loudly that you still haven’t been paid since x-date. Watch all the subs walk off site. Only shout out the facts. Tell him you’ll be back everyday until you have been paid in full.

Good luck to you!

enricoh wrote: »

What gloomtastic says. Email, Viber - haha, not a snowball's. Make enough racket n u'll get paid.

A friend suggested calling around o his house and blocking the drive so he or wife can't get out. That she will kick the 2k out of him for the embarrassment with neighbours, but again it could end up getting physical and I'd end up the worst

Gerry T

duploelabs wrote: »

Are they on Social Media?

Had a look at facebook nothing, doubt they are anywhere else. They have a website, some nice pictures but its very poor, not interactive.

Gloomtastic!

Gerry T wrote: »

A friend suggested calling around o his house and blocking the drive so he or wife can't get out. That she will kick the 2k out of him for the embarrassment with neighbours, but again it could end up getting physical and I'd end up the worst

Bring a friend as a witness who can film any interaction - no violence.

He’s stolen your money, treat him like the low life that he is. If you do as you mentioned you will be paid right away.

Gerry T

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Bring a friend as a witness who can film any interaction - no violence.

He’s stolen your money, treat him like the low life that he is. If you do as you mentioned you will be paid right away.

Looking at all the replies I think I'll use this bank holiday weekend to put in a load of phone calls. Fri-Mon night, Sun Afternoon and I'll finish with a viber Monday night with a "I'll pop around to your house for a chat during the week" message. I'll see if it's delivered & read.

Gloomtastic!

Gerry T wrote: »

Looking at all the replies I think I'll use this bank holiday weekend to put in a load of phone calls. Fri-Mon night, Sun Afternoon and I'll finish with a viber Monday night with a "I'll pop around to your house for a chat during the week" message. I'll see if it's delivered & read.

Drop a note on Friday night through his letterbox that you’ll be seeing him next week to collect your money. Enjoy your weekend, don’t waste your time on this toe-rag!

pedroeibar1

Gerry T wrote: »

Your dead right, I'm an awful edjit. On larger projects (circa 40k) I'll review T&C's, tie a discount to payment terms, only proceed with a written PO or contract, I'll furnish order ack's. Big lesson here as I do think my chance of recovery is slim at best.
To answer your questions:
I offered a written quote with 30 day's net payment. but nothing agreed.
Quote was addressed to a company, sent to a company email address (I checked CRO and it is a Ltd. company) but I suspect it's a 1 or 2 man band.

House was a large show house, finished to a very high standard, which is for sale. My kit is in this house.
Technically the kit can be retrieved very easily, it's a wireless heating control system so small lightweight components.

Currently I operate as a sole trader but I'm in the process of moving to a Ltd. company as my business is moving from 100% consulting to 20% projects, and the risks associated with that are far greater. A very long story but the consulting I was doing was on a basis of zero risk to myself so sole trader suited.

You are not an eejit, you were simply careless and got exploited.

What I would do - Put a note on his door (home) saying you will be there on Wednesday to collect. If he then says he does not have cash he has two options (a) his solicitor gives you an undertaking to pay your balance due from the sale proceeds or (b) you will be exercising your retention of title as he has not paid within terms and you will be calling to the house to remove your gear. If he does not agree to either, tell him that you will be contacting the auctioneer to formally advise that you have a lien on the gear and he (auctioneer) must advise any purchaser of this in the absence of payment to you.

Gerry T

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You are not an eejit, you were simply careless and got exploited.

What I would do - Put a note on his door (home) saying you will be there on Wednesday to collect. If he then says he does not have cash he has two options (a) his solicitor gives you an undertaking to pay your balance due from the sale proceeds or (b) you will be exercising your retention of title as he has not paid within terms and you will be calling to the house to remove your gear. If he does not agree to either, tell him that you will be contacting the auctioneer to formally advise that you have a lien on the gear and he (auctioneer) must advise any purchaser of this in the absence of payment to you.

I like your advice, but do I have the right to remove material if it's "fixed" to the premises, my understanding is if it were say windows they are fixed and you couldn't come along to remove them as they are fixed in position. In my case the material is screwed on so while easily removed would it fall under the umbrella as "fixed" to the dwelling as its not free standing like a TV or Couch.

I hadn't thought of a Lien but does that require a court order, which would take time & money. But the threat of this might suffice as it would affect the companies credit rating. A solicitor agreeing payment on a sale agreed sounds like a good remedy, while im not party to any sale contract there's no reason why his solicitor conveying the sale couldn't award payment to myself from any sale. Wouldn't cost me much either.

pedroeibar1

The objective is to get paid. Recovery of goods is second option, a loss minimization process. You state that the goods remain yours until final payment i.e. you have a lien on them. That is the last thing an auctioneer wants to hear when he is trying to sell a house. If there is an open day go visit and talk to the auctioneerto the auctioneer. No open day, call to his office. Make a nuisance (legally) of yourself. AFAIK you can be liable for any damage caused by removal of the goods. Recover the control unit and bring a tube of polyfilla.

Gerry T

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The objective is to get paid. Recovery of goods is second option, a loss minimization process. You state that the goods remain yours until final payment i.e. you have a lien on them. That is the last thing an auctioneer wants to hear when he is trying to sell a house. If there is an open day go visit and talk to the auctioneerto the auctioneer. No open day, call to his office. Make a nuisance (legally) of yourself. AFAIK you can be liable for any damage caused by removal of the goods. Recover the control unit and bring a tube of polyfilla.

Thanks for the comments, it really is screw on and main controller is on a back plate so it's lift off. I totally agree with you that its about getting paid and not recovery, it's why I'm reluctant to escalate because that's when people dig their heels in.
But it's getting to a time where playing nice is getting me no where and some threats of lien's, calling auctioneers might just get this guy worried enough to pay. I might get a friend to organise a viewing.

ted1

What’s with the viber calls? What’s wrong with regular calls?

Gerry T

ted1 wrote: »

What’s with the viber calls? What’s wrong with regular calls?

It's more about viber message. I'm trying to keep a trail of mails. texts etc, just in case this does go to small claims I can print the audit trail.
The advantage with Viber is the double ticks shows the message has been received and also when they go blue the message has been read. Much better than email or texts.

Markcheese

What ever you do, don't mention retrieving the goods, try to get paid and if not or if there's no interaction then go get them, especially if its an open house showing... It may not be strictly legal to remove your goods, but if you haven't broken in... And the goods are legally yours then its not illegal either... Get your stuff and leave immediately.... But do a few before and after photos of the removal as well, just to cover your ass...

Drifter50

Best and only option as previous OP`s have said........call around and face to face say I want my money. Its your money and its due to you

KidMeNotA1

Small Claims Court takes about 2 months, costs €25 (refundable on claim). Can be very effective.

massy086

KidMeNotA1 wrote: »

Small Claims Court takes about 2 months, costs €25 (refundable on claim). Can be very effective.

Can a company use the small claims court???. I thought it's was consumers only

Drifter50

You`re right, its for consumers only.

minibear

massy086 wrote: »

Can a company use the small claims court???. I thought it's was consumers only

I think it used to be consumers only but not anymore. However my understanding is that a business claim can only be for inadequate service provided, or faulty goods.


Type of claims dealt with

(a) a claim for goods or services bought for private use from someone selling them in the course of a business (consumer claims)
(b) a claim for goods or services bought for business use from someone selling them in the course of a business (business claims)
(c) a claim for minor damage to property (but excluding personal injuries)
(d) a claim for the non-return of a rent deposit for certain kinds of rented properties. For example, a holiday home or a room / flat in a premises where the owner also lives
provided that a claim does not exceed €2,000.

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/Library3.nsf/PageCurrentWebLookUpTopNav/SMALL%20CLAIMS%20PROCEDURE?opendocument&l=en

An Ri rua

Gloomtastic! wrote:

Good luck to you!

Gloomtastic! wrote:

Or call out to the latest job he has, shouting very loudly that you still haven’t been paid since x-date. Watch all the subs walk off site. Only shout out the facts. Tell him you’ll be back everyday until you have been paid in full.

Get a hi-vis and get Debt collector or Debt owed printed on it. And sit into his reception or showroom etc.
Go easy. Stay polite. Stay firm. Stay legal.
But be a right pain in the arse.
If you're in the Midlands, I'll get your money for you. For a small fee. I've pretty much never not been paid. And I've collected some dodgy debts in my time.
Fair is fair. He's robbing you. Listen carefully to advice here. Stay calm, legal but very visible.

An Ri rua

You can't block someone's driveway. You should be (rightly) nicked for that. There's lots of ways to irk a creditor without falling foul of the law. And blocking his wife? Unless she's a director of the company, then that's completely off the wall. And still illegal.

An Ri rua

Others here might have a hissy fit when I mention Revenue. But if all else fails, report your invoice to him through Revenue's Good Citizen Report procedure.

Me, I would send him a timetable of steps you intend to take. And then visibly take each step. So, a bit like other posters said, inform him that you'll call around. And then CALL AROUND. Keep upping the ante. Never aggressively. Simply moving towards an end-game that you informed him of.
So, email, Viber and reg post him a schedule etc.
Then ring, visit home, visit showroom or another site, visit wherever you feel could embarrass. Visit him, put him on edge, but don't embarrass him (yet). Keep relentlessly winding up the pressure. Calmly. No crazy stuff. Make sure he understands that if you lose, he will lose. You WILL waste money on a charge/lien and you will if all else fails advise Revenue that you've invoiced someone who seems to have a haphazard approach to contracts, paperwork and, likely, RCT. They'll have a JIU or auditor on him like flies on sh1te ;-) He'll deserve it.
Before you commence, your series of preannounced steps, ask him face to face why he hasn't paid you. If he even admits that its not til he sells the house, you've still broken him psychologically as he now admits he owes you.
Just ask him. No Viber. Ask him, why have you my stuff and I've no money? When I was a young rep, I got money out of so-called hard men who people were afraid to ask. Why haven't you paid me??? Most people are too polite. You seem nice. That's the correct way to be. But fairness is a double-edged sword. You MUST get paid. Realise that.
Good luck