Kiprop tests positive for EPO

Chivito550

sideswipe wrote: »

Possibly true, but endurance based sports like athletics and cycling are far more influenced by cheating.

Please tell me you don't genuinely believe this.

It's the biggest myth in sport.

Because EPO has zero effect on a footballer who would otherwise be out on his feet in the 85th minute of the match, or tennis players involved in 30+ shot rallies after 5 hours in 35 degree Aussie heat, or rugby players who are now the side of military tanks.

Wake up.

Chivito550

Tell me how wrote: »

Success, fame, money.

How much research would it take to confirm this?

Bingo. And which sport provides more money and fame, football or athletics?

Chivito550

Chivito550 wrote: »

Please tell me you don't genuinely believe this.

It's the biggest myth in sport.

Because EPO has zero effect on a footballer who would otherwise be out on his feet in the 85th minute of the match, or tennis players involved in 30+ shot rallies after 5 hours in 35 degree Aussie heat, or rugby players who are now the side of military tanks.

Wake up.

The biggest benefits are in "simple" sports. Powerlifting, weight-lifting, running, cycling, baseball. They're all limited movements, be good at one thing. Of course they'll help in basketball/football/whatever but will be more help to a runner than a pole-vaulter for example.

rom

Djoucer wrote: »

https://www.fastrunning.com/opinion/comment/dont-add-one-one-together-get-two-thousand-doping-kenyans/15659

Running with Kenyans author shares his thoughts.

Recently read the book and found it a bit naive in parts.

So a few years back I did do the sums. So I put every marathon Rosa athlete best time yearly into a table and from 2009 to 2013/14 there is a huge pattern of improvements due to better training techniques.

Some where shocked that Jeptoo was caught after her medium raise from a 2:30 to a 2:19 runner over a handful of years when her sister who also made the same improvements over the exact same time did it all without PEDs. Its clear that PEDs don't work.

Chivito550

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The biggest benefits are in "simple" sports. Powerlifting, weight-lifting, running, cycling, baseball. They're all limited movements, be good at one thing. Of course they'll help in basketball/football/whatever but will be more help to a runner than a pole-vaulter for example.

Again, that’s absolutely untrue. If you’re exhausted, then your skills are useless. If you can’t run fast, your skills will be less useful to you against guys who can run fast.

Your point would be valid back in the old amateur rugby days when they trained twice a week and hydration involved pints of Old Arthur’s Finest, and fueling involved trips to Leo Burdocks!

Professional sport these days is very scientific and fitness is an integral part.

hmmm

As a non-regular in this forum, I'd be like most people I think - competitive athletics is dead to me as a sport or something I enjoy watching. We cannot have confidence that anything we are watching is "real". I don't really see a fix unfortunately, as there's the strong possibility that some countries are already producing effectively untraceable genetically modified children to compete in the future. Perhaps it's time to give up on top-level Athletics, and focus on preventing drug use at the lower levels of competition?

On the other hand, something like the Winter Olympics was hugely entertaining, mostly because many of the sports required a combination of fitness and skill which would be difficult to simply dope up for.

Chivito550

The reaction of knownothings everytime an athlete tests positive only validates the stance of the likes of FIFA, ATP, NFL etc (do enough to be seen to be doing something, with no genuine interest in busting high profile names).

Everytime an athlete gets done you’ve got mass hysteria and people writing off the sport, bad publicity etc. If I was CEO of the ATP, I’d be looking at this and thinking that this is something we can do without. Why tell the world of a problem they are oblivious to. Let athletics and cycling take the brunt of it, while we keep our heads down and ride the cash cow.

I adore tennis by the way. It’s my second favourite sport, so I’ve got no vendetta against it. I’m calling it the way it is.

Anytime I even try to discuss the topic on the tennis forum, nobody bites. Tennis fans just don’t seem to care.

There’s a lot of double standards in sport.

Chivito550

hmmm wrote: »

As a non-regular in this forum, I'd be like most people I think - competitive athletics is dead to me as a sport or something I enjoy watching. We cannot have confidence that anything we are watching is "real". I don't really see a fix unfortunately, as there's the strong possibility that some countries are already producing effectively untraceable genetically modified children to compete in the future. Perhaps it's time to give up on top-level Athletics, and focus on preventing drug use at the lower levels of competition?

On the other hand, something like the Winter Olympics was hugely entertaining, mostly because many of the sports required a combination of fitness and skill which would be difficult to simply dope up for.

Facepalm.

Do you not know about what the Russians did at the Sochi Winter Games?

Birdie Num Num

hmmm wrote: »

As a non-regular in this forum, I'd be like most people I think - competitive athletics is dead to me as a sport or something I enjoy watching. We cannot have confidence that anything we are watching is "real". I don't really see a fix unfortunately, as there's the strong possibility that some countries are already producing effectively untraceable genetically modified children to compete in the future. Perhaps it's time to give up on top-level Athletics, and focus on preventing drug use at the lower levels of competition?

On the other hand, something like the Winter Olympics was hugely entertaining, mostly because many of the sports required a combination of fitness and skill which would be difficult to simply dope up for.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not here. Sochi? Even Pyeongchang had doping suspensions in various sports; Bobsleigh, Speed skating, Ice hockey...

Then again they all get called 'Athletes'

rom

Chivito550 wrote: »

Again, that’s absolutely untrue. If you’re exhausted, then your skills are useless. If you can’t run fast, your skills will be less useful to you against guys who can run fast.

Your point would be valid back in the old amateur rugby days when they trained twice a week and hydration involved pints of Old Arthur’s Finest, and fueling involved trips to Leo Burdocks!

Professional sport these days is very scientific and fitness is an integral part.

Basically they are saying that a sport like athletics where if you got 2.5M pounds in prize/appearance fees over your career you would be a Mo Farah they are corrupt but in something like a English premiership player where 2.5M pounds is the avg yearly salary there is no corruption or drug taking of any kind. Why don't you understand this

rom

btw this page is trending in the first page in boards so expect an influx of people who have no clue what they are talking about but have very strong opinions.

Pherekydes

rom wrote: »

btw this page is trending in the first page in boards so expect an influx of people who have no clue what they are talking about but have very strong opinions.

Team sports fans? :pac:

sideswipe

Chivito550 wrote: »

Please tell me you don't genuinely believe this.

It's the biggest myth in sport.

Because EPO has zero effect on a footballer who would otherwise be out on his feet in the 85th minute of the match, or tennis players involved in 30+ shot rallies after 5 hours in 35 degree Aussie heat, or rugby players who are now the side of military tanks.

Wake up.

Read what I said again....... I said has more of an effect on endurance athletes, where did I say has zero effect?? Rugby players are a whole other ball game (excuse the pun) when it comes to performance enhancement- the act of bulking up at school levels up is a big problem. The simple fact is, when it comes to the pack bigger is better.

For all those examples you gave I think it's fair to say that people can achieve individual and team success without chemical intervention, it's getting to the point in athletics and cycling were there are clouds of doubt over all the top stars. We have a situation of hand me down medals years after events where the people who placed are getting stripped because of retrospective bans, that's just depressing.

How is it fixed? I'm not sure it's possible hence why I said I'd be reluctant to encourage my kids into the sport I love if they had the talent.

Chivito550

sideswipe wrote: »

Read what I said again....... I said has more of an effect on endurance athletes, where did I say has zero effect?? Rugby players are a whole other ball game (excuse the pun) when it comes to performance enhancement- the act of bulking up at school levels up is a big problem. The simple fact is, when it comes to the pack bigger is better.

For all those examples you gave I think it's fair to say that people can achieve individual and team success without chemical intervention, it's getting to the point in athletics and cycling were there are clouds of doubt over all the top stars. We have a situation of hand me down medals years after events where the people who placed are getting stripped because of retrospective bans, that's just depressing.

How is it fixed? I'm not sure it's possible hence why I said I'd be reluctant to encourage my kids into the sport I love if they had the talent.

How can you actually say it has more of an effect in athletics than other sports? Is that because athletes are measured by the clock so improvements can be seen easily, while improvements are more anecdotal in other sports.

Doping is huge in every sport. People wouldn’t be doing it if they could get by on skill. Doping can be that 1% that decides a close game late on. No different to athletics. Small margins.

Also, there’s plenty of skill in athletics. I train as a sprinter (albeit at a much lower level) and the amount of stuff you have to think of to run in the most efficient manner possible is crazy, not to mention starting out of blocks. There’s a reason why people laud Allyson Felix’s technique, because it is so damn hard to achieve, and most elites can’t even run to such a level of perfection.

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Doping is huge in every sport..

Care to actually show this? I mean actually show it....

how huge is it in snooker and darts and golf?

Tennis?

I'd like actual facts and cases where cheating was confirmed. Not hearsay and innuendo and wishing it the case....

Doping in sports happens, but some sports it happens more because some sports (athletes) need it and benefit more from it in terms of results and differences....

Sports like athletics and cycling where so much of the sport is physical exertion.....it stands to reason you will have a lot more people looking the help their bodies here as compared to golf, for example.

Even tennis.......it's tough, but no way near as physically draining on the body as some track events or cycling events....

No issue bringing in other sports, but trying to compare them as being all the same as regards their doping levels is bonkers.

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Also, there’s plenty of skill in athletics. I train as a sprinter (albeit at a much lower level) and the amount of stuff you have to think of to run in the most efficient manner possible is crazy, not to mention starting out of blocks. There’s a reason why people laud Allyson Felix’s technique, because it is so damn hard to achieve, and most elites can’t even run to such a level of perfection.

Allyson Felix is more natural than technique. Some runners are naturally more gifted...she doesn't need to train that hard to run that way.....simply needs to train hard to run faster.

Skill levels in soccer and tennis and boxing and some other sports are way more than skill levels in running.....way more....

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

Care to actually show this? I mean actually show it....

how huge is it in snooker and darts and golf?

Tennis?

I'd like actual facts and cases where cheating was confirmed. Not hearsay and innuendo and wishing it the case....

Doping in sports happens, but some sports it happens more because some sports (athletes) need it and benefit more from it in terms of results and differences....

Sports like athletics and cycling where so much of the sport is physical exertion.....it stands to reason you will have a lot more people looking the help their bodies here as compared to golf, for example.

Even tennis.......it's tough, but no way near as physically draining on the body as some track events or cycling events....

No issue bringing in other sports, but trying to compare them as being all the same as regards their doping levels is bonkers.

Any sport where physical fitness is so crucial, doping has the potential to be a real game changer.

Tennis is an incredibly physical sport these days. The serve and volley days are dead. Courts are slower, rallies are longer, and matches are longer. The players are out in the sun for up to 5 hours, in intsense 15, 20, 30+ stroke rallies. The game has changed enormously from days gone by. The guys who can last the pace of long best of 5 set matches over 7 matches tend to succeed.

Interesting you mention golf. Read up on Gary Player’s comments. Doping was rampant in baseball in the 1990s. I’m not saying it’s as rampant in golf, but if there are benefits in baseball (hitting home runs) then there are benefits in gold (getting an extra 20-30 yards off the tee.

There are countless cases of doping in Olympic shooting. Again, not saying doping is as prevalent in snooker (or at all prevalent), but there’s no doubting there would be benefits.

I stand by my comment that doping is huge in all sports. Anything that can be the difference between winning and losing is huge.

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

I stand by my comment that doping is huge in all sports. Anything that can be the difference between winning and losing is huge.

You stand by comments with nothing to back them up with apart from hearsay and anecdotal "evidence."

Can you not understand or accept that certain sports like athletics and cycling will be more rife with PEDs due to the nature of said sports?

Other more skill based sports, won't have the same need or desire. Not saying they won't have doping, juts that doping is not as needed or desired for what the sports are about.

So, doping is huge in all sports.......

You really believe that it's huge in snooker and golf and darts? You need to start being realistic and debating this sensibly. Start by taking back this silly claim.

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Tennis is an incredibly physical sport these days. The serve and volley days are dead. Courts are slower, rallies are longer, and matches are longer. The players are out in the sun for up to 5 hours, in intsense 15, 20, 30+ stroke rallies. The game has changed enormously from days gone by. The guys who can last the pace of long best of 5 set matches over 7 matches tend to succeed.

No issue with saying that tennis is a sport that could benefit from PEDs, but it is still not as widespread as it is in athletics and cycling. That is because the skills factors in tennis are that much greater and higher. It's a skills and fitness based sport. Cycling and track running are hugely fitness based sports. Tennis is a mix, with most of it being skill.

Had this debate before. Tennis players are out for 3-4-5 hours, but they are not playing or exerting themselves to the same levels as many athletes. Plenty of breaks and lulls and refreshments available for tennis players during matches. It is not near the fitness/cardio levels of say milers or 5 and 10 k runners......hence the need and desire to risk taking PEDs is not near the same. This is simple logic.

Ask RF to run a mile under 6 minutes and I bet he'd be carted off the track.......

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

You stand by comments with nothing to back them up with apart from hearsay and anecdotal "evidence."

Can you not understand or accept that certain sports like athletics and cycling will be more rife with PEDs due to the nature of said sports?

Other more skill based sports, won't have the same need or desire. Not saying they won't have doping, juts that doping is not as needed or desired for what the sports are about.

So, doping is huge in all sports.......

You really believe that it's huge in snooker and golf and darts? You need to start being realistic and debating this sensibly. Start by taking back this silly claim.

But other sports have the following:

1) Higher incentive: While incentive to win is equal across all sports, the financial rewards are far higher in the likes of football and tennis than in athletics
2) Lower risk: The chance of actually getting caught for doping in the likes of football and tennis is considerably lower than in athletics.

Do I need to educate you about the concept of Risk V Reward?

In the business world high risk can mean high reward.

Now imagine if the risks were low (more like non-existent), and the rewards were insanely high? Why wouldn’t somebody dope.

sideswipe

Chivito550 wrote: »

How can you actually say it has more of an effect in athletics than other sports? Is that because athletes are measured by the clock so improvements can be seen easily, while improvements are more anecdotal in other sports.

Firstly I'm not belittling the skill in athletics.

I think you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to how success is measured in endurance sport- often times on a clock.

When it comes to skill v stamina/endurance I just think if you took the most promising young footballers and allowed them to dope you wouldn't necessarily turn them into world beaters. If you went to east Africa and did the same with the most promising distance runners you might effect more of a difference to their career trajectory.

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

No issue with saying that tennis is a sport that could benefit from PEDs, but it is still not as widespread as it is in athletics and cycling. That is because the skills factors in tennis are that much greater and higher. It's a skills and fitness based sport. Cycling and track running are hugely fitness based sports. Tennis is a mix, with most of it being skill.

Had this debate before. Tennis players are out for 3-4-5 hours, but they are not playing or exerting themselves to the same levels as many athletes. Plenty of breaks and lulls and refreshments available for tennis players during matches. It is not near the fitness/cardio levels of say milers or 5 and 10 k runners......hence the need and desire to risk taking PEDs is not near the same. This is simple logic.

Ask RF to run a mile under 6 minutes and I bet he'd be carted off the track.......

Haha, Roger Federer could run under 6 minutes for a mile, with his eyes closed, stopping to take a p1ss at half way.

ultrapercy

Chivito550 wrote: »

The reaction of knownothings everytime an athlete tests positive only validates the stance of the likes of FIFA, ATP, NFL etc (do enough to be seen to be doing something, with no genuine interest in busting high profile names).

Everytime an athlete gets done you’ve got mass hysteria and people writing off the sport, bad publicity etc. If I was CEO of the ATP, I’d be looking at this and thinking that this is something we can do without. Why tell the world of a problem they are oblivious to. Let athletics and cycling take the brunt of it, while we keep our heads down and ride the cash cow.

I adore tennis by the way. It’s my second favourite sport, so I’ve got no vendetta against it. I’m calling it the way it is.

Anytime I even try to discuss the topic on the tennis forum, nobody bites. Tennis fans just don’t seem to care.

There’s a lot of double standards in sport.

No spor5d fan cares about doping or indeed any type pf cheating in the sports they foll9w. I sit here watching John Higgins play in the world champs semi final having previously served a ban for match fixing. The BBC extrolling him as an ambassodor for the sport. Money men dictate everything even the way in which we are brain washed.

rom

walshb wrote: »

Care to actually show this? I mean actually show it....

how huge is it in snooker and darts and golf?

Tennis?

I'd like actual facts and cases where cheating was confirmed. Not hearsay and innuendo and wishing it the case....

Doping in sports happens, but some sports it happens more because some sports (athletes) need it and benefit more from it in terms of results and differences....

Sports like athletics and cycling where so much of the sport is physical exertion.....it stands to reason you will have a lot more people looking the help their bodies here as compared to golf, for example.

Even tennis.......it's tough, but no way near as physically draining on the body as some track events or cycling events....

No issue bringing in other sports, but trying to compare them as being all the same as regards their doping levels is bonkers.

Golf - Can't measure what we can't see.
Anti-doping code on the PGA Tour, and non-compliance with the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada), there is no obligation to release information on failed drug tests or resulting penalties.

There was 1 test last year for Irish Golfers and that was a female golfer.

Tennis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Doping_cases_in_tennis

Darts
Only in competition testing is happening so with the information that is there from other sports would be silly if someone was caught.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4082438/Michael-van-Gerwen-Gary-Anderson-demand-drug-testing-darts.html

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Haha, Roger Federer could run under 6 minutes for a mile, with his eyes closed, stopping to take a p1ss at half way.

You sure?

Weighing 85 kgs......

Maybe he would do it....but he'd be fooking wrecked after it...

Anyway, cardio and stamnina wise he's not remotely close to track athletes, middle distance/long distance...

walshb

rom wrote: »

Golf - Can't measure what we can't see.
Anti-doping code on the PGA Tour, and non-compliance with the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada), there is no obligation to release information on failed drug tests or resulting penalties.

There was 1 test last year for Irish Golfers and that was a female golfer.

Tennis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Doping_cases_in_tennis

Darts
Only in competition testing is happening so with the information that is there from other sports would be silly if someone was caught.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4082438/Michael-van-Gerwen-Gary-Anderson-demand-drug-testing-darts.html

I am well aware that doping chasing is far greater in track. I have said this many times when defending the sport against these asshole claims like "everyone in track" is a cheat....

Anyway, still nothing shows me that doping is huge in these sports like golf and snooker and tennis, like the poster claims....and showing me stats that show that these sports aren't testing or chasing as much as athletics doesn't prove the claim by the poster.

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

You sure?

Weighing 85 kgs......

Maybe he would do it....but he'd be fooking wrecked after it...

Anyway, cardio and stamnina wise he's not remotely close to track athletes, middle distance/long distance...

Honestly? Sub 6? Sub 6 is not a high standard. I was able to run comfortably under 6 having done absolutely no training whatsoever in a time trial back in 2010 (before I actually took up athletics).

Are you telling me that one of the worlds greatest ever sportspeople couldn’t manage this, or would have to be stretchered off attempting such a modest target?

You’re ruining any ounce of credibility your arguments had.

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

I am well aware that doping chasing is far greater in track. I have said this many times when defending the sport against these asshole claims like "everyone in track" is a cheat....

Anyway, still nothing shows me that doping is huge in these sports like golf and snooker and tennis, like the poster claims....and showing me stats that show that these sports aren't testing or chasing as much as athletics doesn't prove the claim by the poster.

How do you want us to “prove” this? Other sports aren’t measured by the clock like athletics.

Also doping affects people in different ways. Dwayne Chambers improved by only a relatively small margin from doping compared to others.

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Honestly? Sub 6? Sub 6 is not a high standard. I was able to run comfortably under 6 having done absolutely no training whatsoever in a time trial back in 2010 (before I actually took up athletics).

Are you telling me that one of the worlds greatest ever sportspeople couldn’t manage this, or would have to be stretchered off attempting such a modest target?

You’re ruining any ounce of credibility your arguments had.

Like I said, maybe he would........and I never said sub 6 was a high standard. I have ran it when fit and it is not a walk in the park.

I am simply saying that he is nowhere remotely close to the stamina and cardio of track runners.

I picked 6 minutes as a figure,

Ok, lower this to 5.30........

Point stands.......he is not remotely close to the track runners stamina

BTW, what makes you think a tennis player can run a mile in under 6 minutes very easily? What training do they do to make you think this?

Tennis players are generally tall and well built men in excess of 80-85-90 kgs, who train mainly for short power bursts of exertion. Train for flexibility and strength.

Why would 6 minutes be so easy for them?

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

How do you want us to “prove” this? Other sports aren’t measured by the clock like athletics.

Also doping affects people in different ways. Dwayne Chambers improved by only a relatively small margin from doping compared to others.

Prove what? It's you who are making the claims.

You said doping is huge in all sports.......

That is a generalized silly claim. The sports I mentioned have not thrown up near the amount of positive tests as track. That is the only proof that can be used to back up your ridiculous claim, and unfortunately for you it is juts not there...

Now, you may try to use the whole "other sports" don't test as much......that is true. But it doesn't verify your silly claim