Kiprop tests positive for EPO

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

Like I said, maybe he would........

I am simply saying that he is nowhere remotely close to the stamina and cardio of track runners.

I picked 6 minutes as a figure,

Ok, lower this to 5.30........

Point stands.......he is not remotely close to the track runners stamina

BTW, what makes you think a tennis player can run a mile in under 6 minutes very easily? What training do they do to make you think this?

Tennis players are generally tall and well built men in excess of 80-85-90 kgs, who train mainly for short power bursts of exertion. Train for flexibility and strength.

Why would 6 minutes be so easy for them?

Because 6 minutes is slow.

If you said 5 minutes then I might agree with you.

I never said they have the same stamina as track athletes. Of course they don't. But they have the type of stamina needed for their specific sport. Somebody who is able to last 5 hours better than the other will win. Doping can facilitate this.

Chivito550

Best thing for the IAAF to do is to follow the model of other sports. Don't test much.

No failed tests.

No bad publicity.

Lots of €€€€

Thankfully the governing body (while far from perfect) have some sense of morality.

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

I never said they have the same stamina as track athletes. Of course they don't. But they have the type of stamina needed for their specific sport. Somebody who is able to last 5 hours better than the other will win. Doping can facilitate this.

I know you never said it

But the differences are not even comparable. That was my point. Stands to reason that the benefit of say EPO would be that much more appealing to the track athlete. Much more, as their whole sport is based on "ridiculous fitness." Tennis is not. More based on skills and talent. It's all about levels.....fitness is required in tennis, just so much more (and to a much higher intensity) a requirement in track

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

I know you never said it

But the differences are not even comparable. That was my point. Stands to reason that the benefit of say EPO would be that much more appealing to the track athlete. Much more, as their whole sport is based on ridiculous fitness. Tennis is not. More based on skills and talent. It's all about levels.....

Bashing the ball back and forth to each other waiting for the other guy to make a mistake is not the greatest display of skills and talent. It's a display of endurance.

As I said, the emphasis on endurance is huge now.

Regrettably I may add. I used to love the serve-and-volley days.

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Because 6 minutes is slow.

Slow for a fit person who can run well. Not all that slow for the average Joe. Now, tennis players being the shape and size and weight that they are, may well see 6 minutes as not all that slow.

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Bashing the ball back and forth to each other waiting for the other guy to make a mistake is not the greatest display of skills and talent. It's a display of endurance.

As I said, the emphasis on endurance is huge now.

Regrettably I may add. I used to love the serve-and-volley days.

Bashing the ball back and forth is as much about strength and movement as pure stamina. You are overrating the cardio/stamina aspect of tennis. Big time...

Emphasis on endurance is needed, but they are not doing anything close to extraordinary that training and dedication won't give them...

velo.2010

walshb wrote: »

Other more skill based sports, won't have the same need or desire.

That's a ridiculous statement.

There was a similar argument on the GAA forum a while back when a player was busted and folk wondered why any GAA player would dope. Chivito explained how many other sports like GAA could benefit from PEDs. With regard to the apparent low level of positives I'll refer to some points a I made on that thread and how they pertain to this argument now.

The reason why the level of doping appears low in other sports outside running, cycling etc, is because the level of testing is so low. Doping would remain under the radar and thus the 'level of doping' would always appear low. A strong and robust anti-doping policy may just confirm there is no great doping problem in these other sports you quote. At the moment though you cannot quantitatively say that there is no major doping problem in those other sports.

Because doping doesn't appear systematic in other sports, that does not mean they should not be held to the same level of scrutiny as any of the endurance events. To do so is to bury one's head in the sand.

walshb

velo.2010 wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement.

There was a similar argument on the GAA forum a while back when a player was busted and folk wondered why any GAA player would dope. Chivito explained how many other sports like GAA could benefit from PEDs.
.

Who said that GAA or other sports could not benefit from EPO?

The argument/discussion is about the desire and needs and benefit levels of some PEDs in some sports compared to other sports. They are not all equal....anyone thinking that they are is silly.

velo.2010

walshb wrote: »

Who said that GAA or other sports could not benefit from EPO?

The argument/discussion is about the desire and needs and benefit levels of some PEDs in some sports compared to other sports. They are not all equal....anyone thinking that they are is silly.

You seem to be stuck on how PEDs couldn't benefit other sports outside endurance events. Unless your gradating doping practises and saying its OK for a chess player to take a banned stimulant because its just popping a pill and not as serious as injecting something like EPO? Doping is doping regardless of the physical exertion of the sport.

And from chess to marathon running, professional sports people are the most competitive and most ruthless people on the planet. if they believe their rivals are doing or taking XYZ, the they will do or take XYZ.

Chivito's original statement of 'everyone's at it' may have been glib but cheating exists in all types of sport. To say that one sport must be less dirty because the competitors don't look or move like typical athletes is to fall into a fallacy argument.

Again, we don't have statistcs for thes 'other sports' because they simply have not been scrutinised to the same degree as endurance events.

walshb

velo.2010 wrote: »

You seem to be stuck on how PEDs couldn't benefit other sports outside endurance events. Unless your gradating doping practises and saying its OK for a chess player to take a banned stimulant because its just popping a pill and not as serious as injecting something like EPO? Doping is doping regardless of the physical exertion of the sport.

I know that there are stimulants out there and drugs out there that can benefit any sports competitor. The debate I was having was more on EPO.....

It's all about logic and reasoning......

Some sports will try this and others will try that.....what works for one competitor in his sport may not be as needed for another competitor in his sport.....it's a huge area....

One example: A snooker player is more likely to try a banned stimulant that may give him a little pick up and keep his concentration levels more alert. Very unlikely he will inject steroids or EPO.

Anyway, I just don't agree that doping is huge in all sports. That implies that there is doping happening to the same degree in all sports....

Even track and field. It is not huge. There are likely far more clean and honest athletes than dirty ones. That means that it is not huge. It is all about percentages. For every cheat there are many more clean.

BTW, do you think Fed strolls to a 6 minute mile barely breaking sweat....:pac:

velo.2010

walshb wrote: »

The debate I was having was more on EPO.....

One example: A snooker player is more likely to try a banned stimulant that may give him a little pick up and keep his concentration levels more alert. Very unlikely he will inject steroids or EPO.

Anyway, I just don't agree that doping is huge in all sports. That implies that there is doping happening to the same degree in all sports....

Even track and field. It is not huge.

Cheating is cheating regardless of the chemical make up of the substance they are taking. You seem to be stuck on this issue.

In a study, 30% plus of athletes admitted to taking PEDS at the 2011 World Athletics Championships - I think that is a pretty huge number, in fairness.

walshb

velo.2010 wrote: »

Cheating is cheating regardless of the chemical make up of the substance they are taking. You seem to be stuck on this issue.

In a study, 30% plus of athletes admitted to taking PEDS at the 2011 World Athletics Championships - I think that is a pretty huge number, in fairness.

Stuck on what issue? If they cheat then they are cheats.....

30 percent of what number? It's not huge......

I do not believe for a second that there is a massive (percentage) amount of cheats in professional athletics....the figures do not show that there is....

velo.2010

walshb wrote: »

30 percent of what number? It's not huge......

I do not believe for a second that there is a massive (percentage) amount of cheats in professional athletics....the figures do not show that there is....

So your fine with only 30% of athletes cheating. Your trollin' now boss. I'll leave you to it.

Testosterscone

sideswipe wrote: »

Chivito550 wrote: »

How can you actually say it has more of an effect in athletics than other sports? Is that because athletes are measured by the clock so improvements can be seen easily, while improvements are more anecdotal in other sports.

Firstly I'm not belittling the skill in athletics.

I think you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to how success is measured in endurance sport- often times on a clock.

When it comes to skill v stamina/endurance I just think if you took the most promising young footballers and allowed them to dope you wouldn't necessarily turn them into world beaters. If you went to east Africa and did the same with the most promising distance runners you might effect more of a difference to their career trajectory.

It wont turn them into world beaters much like doping wont turn all runners into superstars. However if top players can play at higher intensity and recover quicker between matches form becomes alot more prevelant.

It is interesting that PL champions this year with one of the highest points tally in history have plenty of questions to answer

- Manager is a convicted doper
- have been fined in last 12 months for multiple whereabouts infractions
- ties to one of the biggest doping scandals in history

Chivito550

Kiprop statement:

https://saddiqueshaban.wordpress.com/2018/05/03/asbel-kiprop-statement-on-adrv-charges-against-him/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

velo.2010

Quote...'I am told EPO is put into the body using injection'. It was at this point I knew... he was bull****ting!

walshb

velo.2010 wrote: »

So your fine with only 30% of athletes cheating. Your trollin' now boss. I'll leave you to it.

Do you believe the “statistic?”

Who are the 30 percent? Any names?

Any actual clear verification on this statistic?

Sounds like you at just willing to believe it...

Not possible that it’s a bullsh1t made up statistic to suit a narrative?

Anyway, it’s not a huge number. It’s a minority number. 60 percent would be huge..

No need to troll. I’m just not as eager to believe stuff I read as you..

sideswipe

Chivito550 wrote: »

Kiprop statement:

https://saddiqueshaban.wordpress.com/2018/05/03/asbel-kiprop-statement-on-adrv-charges-against-him/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

His english is excellent;)

average_runner

Testosterscone wrote: »

It wont turn them into world beaters much like doping wont turn all runners into superstars. However if top players can play at higher intensity and recover quicker between matches form becomes alot more prevelant.

It is interesting that PL champions this year with one of the highest points tally in history have plenty of questions to answer

- Manager is a convicted doper
- have been fined in last 12 months for multiple whereabouts infractions
- ties to one of the biggest doping scandals in history

And has one of the biggest squads for rotation.

More question marks about pool than city. Pool squad is tiny and their game is at a greater intensity

Chivito550

sideswipe wrote: »

His english is excellent;)

Yeh and his English on twitter is not so perfect.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Yeh and his English on twitter is not so perfect.

Maybe he has limited characters!!!

velo.2010

From Twitter. Not sure how valid this is.

FURTHER BREAKING NEWS: IAAF's Athletics Integrity Unit admits that its Doping Control Officer breached protocol by offering an advance notice of intention to collect sample to @KipropAsbel . ALSO, admits that the DCO received money from Asbel Kiprophe.

If true then he was tipped off the night before and he did pay up! Extraordinary. It would also makes sense as to why so many athletes train in Kenya and Ethiopia.

Chivito550

Next time one of these threads pops up and we get knownothings popping in for a quick visit to slate athletics, have this article bookmarked for easy access.

This is a brilliant piece, excellently researched, and extremely well written by Ewan MacKenna. This is one of the all time great sporting frauds, and it is sickening that they are getting away with it.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/ewan-mackenna-there-are-murky-questions-surrounding-spanish-footballs-golden-era-and-people-might-not-like-the-answers-36943284.html

Itziger

Chivito550 wrote: »

Next time one of these threads pops up and we get knownothings popping in for a quick visit to slate athletics, have this article bookmarked for easy access.

This is a brilliant piece, excellently researched, and extremely well written by Ewan MacKenna. This is one of the all time great sporting frauds, and it is sickening that they are getting away with it.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/ewan-mackenna-there-are-murky-questions-surrounding-spanish-footballs-golden-era-and-people-might-not-like-the-answers-36943284.html

Chivito, when you say 'they', do you mean Spain? 'Cos that is the real scandal of the piece in my mind. On the one hand he mentions a list of semi-acknowledged doping offences from around the world - which is only scratching the surface anyway - and then he makes out the main offender is or was Spain. 
Now I understand that Operacion Puerta probably had some real damning evidence against certain Spanish players and clubs but folks, please don't be naive. If anybody thinks that the Premiership is far behind Spain and Italy (those cheating Mediterranean scumbags) then you really need to sit down and think this through. The British press has been running this 'Johnny Foreigner' line for absolutely decades now. It's utter B.S. is what it is.

Chivito550

Itziger wrote: »

Chivito, when you say 'they', do you mean Spain? 'Cos that is the real scandal of the piece in my mind. On the one hand he mentions a list of semi-acknowledged doping offences from around the world - which is only scratching the surface anyway - and then he makes out the main offender is or was Spain. 
Now I understand that Operacion Puerta probably had some real damning evidence against certain Spanish players and clubs but folks, please don't be naive. If anybody thinks that the Premiership is far behind Spain and Italy (those cheating Mediterranean scumbags) then you really need to sit down and think this through. The British press has been running this 'Johnny Foreigner' line for absolutely decades now. It's utter B.S. is what it is.

Agreed. Doping is very prevalent in football, across the world, not just in Spain.

However, Spain dominated the sport for several years, and still do at club level. They have lots of links to dodgey doctors etc. If it fully came out into the public consciousness it would be an Armstrong type scandal. Worse, given the popularity of football. That doesn't mean others aren't doing it, just as it didn't mean other cyclists weren't doing it. But Real Madrid and Barcelona, like Armstrong was in cycling, are the biggest names in football, containing the most popular 2 players in the world.

But when I say "they", I actually mean the sport of football as a whole, not just Spain.

Hurrache

It's not that excellently researched, everything has been in the public realm years, including this forum and others.

Chivito550

Hurrache wrote: »

It's not that excellently researched, everything has been in the public realm years, including this forum and others.

Yeh fair point. There's nothing in it that I did not already know. But what he has done is put it together well, and brought it into the mainstream. A few people might think differently on Saturday as a result of this article.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Next time one of these threads pops up and we get knownothings popping in for a quick visit to slate athletics, have this article bookmarked for easy access.

This is a brilliant piece, excellently researched, and extremely well written by Ewan MacKenna. This is one of the all time great sporting frauds, and it is sickening that they are getting away with it.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/ewan-mackenna-there-are-murky-questions-surrounding-spanish-footballs-golden-era-and-people-might-not-like-the-answers-36943284.html

This article gives no one any reason not to slate athletics. Yes other sports are as bad, but this doesn't excuse athletics from criticism. All we should care about on the athletics forum is the state of athletics, how dirty it is, but also the great athletes that we believe are clean.

Other forums for other sports.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

This article gives no one any reason not to slate athletics. Yes other sports are as bad, but this doesn't excuse athletics from criticism. All we should care about on the athletics forum is the state of athletics, how dirty it is, but also the great athletes that we believe are clean.

Other forums for other sports.

I disagree. Our sport is held to higher standards by the general public than other sports are. Why is this so? Why is it ok for one sport to do virtually no drug testing, while another gets slated everytime it catches somebody?

Our sport is suffering hugely as a result of this hypocrisy. Yes we have big problems, but if the true extent of doping in other sports was known, then athletics wouldn’t have such a bad rep in the eyes of the public. It bothers me when I hear people say they don’t want their kids involved in sports like athletics because of its association with drugs.

I want the lid lifted on other sports. We simply are handicapping ourselves otherwise.

Chivito550

On a side note, I’ve sent this article to quite a few people. About 3-4 already have said to me they still want Real to beat Liverpool regardless of doping. That highlights just how little people care about doping in certain sports. These same people would never cheer on Gatlin for example.