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How effective are Threshold and the PRTB?

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    #32
    griffincathal
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭griffincathal


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Threshold and the RTB had nothing to do with that situation.

    Maybe not directly but thats precisely why they're needed.


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    #33
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    griffincathal wrote: »
    Maybe not directly but thats precisely why they're needed.

    The tenant was able to do perfectly well without them. What use were they to the tenant?


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    #34
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Threshold is a voluntary body which advises tenants. They help in some cases. The RTB is helpful to some tenants but having a body like it and the legislation it enforces is causing a lot of trouble. Rents are being forced up and up because of the RTB.

    There is nothing wrong with what the rtb does.

    The issue is while they increased the protection for tenants which is fine they didn't do the same for landlords.

    Also the process is too slow for landlords. It can cost them thousands even tens of thousands of someone overholds for a long time and it costs the tenant nothing as you can't get money out of them.

    I know quite a few landlords that the rtb found in their favour for evictions and deposit retention. So I don't think it one sided.


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    #35
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Thanks. I had a nightmare tenancy last time; . Threshold were so helpful and supportive and time and again advised me NOT to use the deposit as the last month's rent. NOT to stop paying rent.

    Maybe you got someone new in threshold.


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    #36
    Glass fused light
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Glass fused light


    griffincathal wrote: »
    If you own it fine. Just have it and do nothing with it. But when you start renting it to others it becomes THEIR homes that what you're getting rent for. You can't just do what you like with the property. Or are you just too selfish to realise that. Your attitude is why Threshold is so important and right. Because unfortunately people like you are all we have to work with for shelter.

    Anyway you've answered my question loud and clear. They obviously really piss of you landlords so they must be doing something right.

    We have 3 options in this country. Buy, Rent, or be given social housing.

    If someone is in the financial position to buy they enter into a contract, to obtain ownership. They have a option to fund this entering into another contract by taking out an loan where they get the money up front and repay an amount over time, if they fail to keep this agreement the loan holder is entitled to get the house.

    If someone is in the financial position to rent they enter into a contract, to obtain a right to live there, they never obtain ownership. They have a option to fund this entering into another contract by applying to the taxpayer for rent support, they get the money up front and pay it over to the property owner, if they fail to keep this agreement the rent supporter is entitled to stop funding the rent and if the person can't self support the property owner is entitled to get the house. The property owner also has the ability to end the contract and legally regaining the house.

    If someone is not in the financial position where they can enter into a contract for shelter they have an option to enter into a contract by applying to the taxpayer for social housing to obtain a right to live there, again they never obtain ownership If they fail to keep this agreement they can also be required to leave the property.

    The property owner who is renting the property to a tenant, has no legal or moral obligation to provide anyone with shelter. They, just the same as the tenant, have a legal and moral obligation to comply with the terms of the agreed contract and with the legistation. The PTRB's duty is to ensure that both parties are in compliance with the law and the contract terms.

    If you want to campaign on everyone having a right to shelter the correct people to target are the elected members in the Dail, and ask why they are not pushing for more social housing.


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    #37
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    beauf wrote: »
    Maybe you got someone new in threshold.

    No. I always connected with the person I knew for years. :rolleyes:
    Always the same advice along with the other relevant legalities.


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    #38
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    This does not answer the posters concerns .

    Glass fused light wrote: »
    We have 3 options in this country. Buy, Rent, or be given social housing.

    If someone is in the financial position to buy they enter into a contract, to obtain ownership. They have a option to fund this entering into another contract by taking out an loan where they get the money up front and repay an amount over time, if they fail to keep this agreement the loan holder is entitled to get the house.

    If someone is in the financial position to rent they enter into a contract, to obtain a right to live there, they never obtain ownership. They have a option to fund this entering into another contract by applying to the taxpayer for rent support, they get the money up front and pay it over to the property owner, if they fail to keep this agreement the rent supporter is entitled to stop funding the rent and if the person can't self support the property owner is entitled to get the house. The property owner also has the ability to end the contract and legally regaining the house.

    If someone is not in the financial position where they can enter into a contract for shelter they have an option to enter into a contract by applying to the taxpayer for social housing to obtain a right to live there, again they never obtain ownership If they fail to keep this agreement they can also be required to leave the property.

    The property owner who is renting the property to a tenant, has no legal or moral obligation to provide anyone with shelter. They, just the same as the tenant, have a legal and moral obligation to comply with the terms of the agreed contract and with the legistation. The PTRB's duty is to ensure that both parties are in compliance with the law and the contract terms.

    If you want to campaign on everyone having a right to shelter the correct people to target are the elected members in the Dail, and ask why they are not pushing for more social housing.


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    #39
    Glass fused light
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Glass fused light


    Graces7 wrote: »
    This does not answer the posters concerns .

    what's the concern? Landlords are providing accommodation not providing homes. Threshold is an advocacy body for one party in a contract. The PTRB's duty is to ensure that both parties to the contract are in compliance with the law and the contract terms.


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    #40
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graces7 wrote: »
    No. I always connected with the person I knew for years. :rolleyes:
    Always the same advice along with the other relevant legalities.

    Good for you.

    The job has been done already though.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057343907

    http://www.thejournal.ie/rent-landlord-eviction-orders-3794785-Jan2018/

    https://www.threshold.ie/news/2017/11/14/nearly-half-of-tenancy-terminations-in-galway-city/


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    #41
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    griffincathal wrote: »
    Hi I was just wondering how effective are Threshold and the PRTB for defending tenants rights? Do they actually do they actually achieve what they are supposed to (mediating, advocating, successfully defending legal disputes) do they actually successfully defend the rights of tenants more often than not or are they just there to make it appear like tenants have backup but in reality don't really get the results?

    They've got the results the were warned would happen. Make the shortage worse and encourage over-holding and landlords to leave the market. They are also getting what they wanted in the large investment firms "professional landlords" (whatever that means) coming into the market. However this has, as warned driven up rents, and introduced mass evictions, which has even caused the 'Tyrrelstown clause' to be introduced.

    So its been very effective.


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    #42
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    griffincathal wrote: »
    Hi I was just wondering how effective are Threshold and the PRTB for defending tenants rights? ...

    Lets ask another question. If you had property, or the means to buy property would you become a landlord and make less money, or even lose money. Or would you use it for airbnb or just flip it and make money buying and selling property. Because the last ones seems the easiest to me.


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    #43
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    beauf wrote: »
    Good for you.

    The job has been done already though.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057343907

    http://www.thejournal.ie/rent-landlord-eviction-orders-3794785-Jan2018/

    https://www.threshold.ie/news/2017/11/14/nearly-half-of-tenancy-terminations-in-galway-city/


    You are reading these with a very biassed mind. And a single minded one. I can only repeat that I have always consistently found threshold a valuable skilled and resourcefully supportive law abiding resource. So not " good for me" but good for threshold


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    #44
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Your point seems to be once you're ok, there is no problem. That is certainly single minded.

    I'm bias for pointing out things are connected. If people want to rent without using LL's then go ahead. LLs want to have a business without tenants, so they go AirBnB or sell up. How could anyone not be happy with that.


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    #45
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    griffincathal wrote: »
    Hi I was just wondering how effective are Threshold and the PRTB for defending tenants rights? Do they actually do they actually achieve what they are supposed to (mediating, advocating, successfully defending legal disputes) do they actually successfully defend the rights of tenants more often than not or are they just there to make it appear like tenants have backup but in reality don't really get the results?

    Threshold only work for tenants. PRTB works for both in theory funded by landlords only,in reality they are more pro tenant. never seen a case taken by prsb against a tenant for none payment of rent.


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    #46
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Threshold only work for tenants. PRTB works for both in theory funded by landlords only,in reality they are more pro tenant. never seen a case taken by prsb against a tenant for none payment of rent.

    How many landlords have reported the non-compliance with the Determination Order?


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    #47
    GGTrek
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭GGTrek


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    handlemaster wrote: »
    Threshold only work for tenants. PRTB works for both in theory funded by landlords only,in reality  they are more pro tenant. never seen a case taken by prsb against a tenant for none payment  of rent.

    How many landlords have reported the non-compliance with the Determination Order?
    Quite a lot when the non-compliance is with respect to failure to vacate the dwelling.


  • Options
    #48
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    GGTrek wrote: »
    Quite a lot when the non-compliance is with respect to failure to vacate the dwelling.

    The RTB take cases for failure to vacate. The question is how many landlords have reported failure to pay rent.


  • Options
    #49
    griffincathal
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭griffincathal


    Glass fused light wrote: »
    We have 3 options in this country. Buy, Rent, or be given social housing.

    If someone is in the financial position to buy they enter into a contract, to obtain ownership. They have a option to fund this entering into another contract by taking out an loan where they get the money up front and repay an amount over time, if they fail to keep this agreement the loan holder is entitled to get the house.

    If someone is in the financial position to rent they enter into a contract, to obtain a right to live there, they never obtain ownership. They have a option to fund this entering into another contract by applying to the taxpayer for rent support, they get the money up front and pay it over to the property owner, if they fail to keep this agreement the rent supporter is entitled to stop funding the rent and if the person can't self support the property owner is entitled to get the house. The property owner also has the ability to end the contract and legally regaining the house.

    If someone is not in the financial position where they can enter into a contract for shelter they have an option to enter into a contract by applying to the taxpayer for social housing to obtain a right to live there, again they never obtain ownership If they fail to keep this agreement they can also be required to leave the property.

    The property owner who is renting the property to a tenant, has no legal or moral obligation to provide anyone with shelter. They, just the same as the tenant, have a legal and moral obligation to comply with the terms of the agreed contract and with the legistation. The PTRB's duty is to ensure that both parties are in compliance with the law and the contract terms.

    If you want to campaign on everyone having a right to shelter the correct people to target are the elected members in the Dail, and ask why they are not pushing for more social housing.

    Legally there may not be a moral obligation on the part of the landlord to provide accommodation but that just means they can do what they like and act like bullies if they wish. It shows how little conscience there is in this country. Is simply wrong that it has to be written in law that there is a MORAL obligation.


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    #50
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    griffincathal wrote: »
    Legally there may not be a moral obligation on the part of the landlord to provide accommodation but that just means they can do what they like and act like bullies if they wish. It shows how little conscience there is in this country. Is simply wrong that it has to be written in law that there is a MORAL obligation.

    Sorry can you quote where there is a moral obligation...


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    #51
    Glass fused light
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Glass fused light


    griffincathal wrote: »
    Legally there may not be a moral obligation on the part of the landlord to provide accommodation but that just means they can do what they like and act like bullies if they wish. It shows how little conscience there is in this country. Is simply wrong that it has to be written in law that there is a MORAL obligation.

    There is no moral obligation between a landlord and a tenant. Just as there is no moral obligation on a shop to give a person food.

    The morals of a landlord may be such that they are happy to rent out a hellhole, or indeed the morals of the tenant may allow them to not pay rent and transform their accomadation into a hellhole. That's why we have legal standards.

    The local county council has a legal obligation to inspect the accomodation, to ensure it meets the legal standard.
    The PTRB enable tenants who are unhappy with the standard of accomodation or behaviour of landlord to make a complaint and examine it in the context of the legal standards.
    If the behavior of the landlord warrants it the individual can make a complaint to the Gardai.

    The landlord meets their moral obligation to provide housing by paying the tax due to the government. Who in turn use this to fund social housing.


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    #52
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    beauf wrote: »
    Your point seems to be once you're ok, there is no problem. That is certainly single minded.

    Not at all . I dislike unfair comments that I know are not true in my experience, It is not just . In fact I was given advice by Threshold I would rather not have followed but they were adamant re the legality and they were right . And I have never heard of anyone I know to be given advice to overhold by Threshold. So fair is fair.

    They do a great job for many tenants like myself.


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    #53
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    griffincathal wrote: »
    Legally there may not be a moral obligation on the part of the landlord to provide accommodation but that just means they can do what they like and act like bullies if they wish. It shows how little conscience there is in this country. Is simply wrong that it has to be written in law that there is a MORAL obligation.

    why should a landlord have a moral obligation ! isnt there enought legal screwing of the the landlord already


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    #54
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Not at all . I dislike unfair comments that I know are not true in my experience, It is not just . In fact I was given advice by Threshold I would rather not have followed but they were adamant re the legality and they were right . And I have never heard of anyone I know to be given advice to overhold by Threshold. So fair is fair.

    They do a great job for many tenants like myself.

    You think my comment that you are only looking at it from your own experience is single minded is unfair because that not been your personal experience.

    Ok then...


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    #55
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    beauf wrote: »
    You think my comment that you are only looking at it from your own experience is single minded is unfair because that not been your personal experience.

    Ok then...

    Nor of anyone I know. On this we will agree to differ. Of course you see it differently as you are not a tenant.

    Over and out from me on this.


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    #56
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    It's nothing to do with me personally if I'm a tenant or not is irrelevant. I simply posted links to articles and others on this forum.

    A LL had to consider is there a less risky way of making the same income either through Airbnb or just selling the property. If there is no protection from losses from overholding.


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