Could the Irish language be revived?

Shurimgreat

MarkY91 wrote: »

What benefit would it bring to it being revived?

I wish my school days doing Irish could have been replaced by a European language. You know, something I can actually use in life.

And when was the last time you were presented with the opportunity of doing business in French, German, Mandarin, etc?

Most young people in these countries are learning English. English is the lingua franca of business, IT, aviation, medicine and many more fields.

So why bother learning French when its largely only spoken by one country? Unless you plan to move there or do business entirely with French people its irrelevant.

I'd safely say 90% of people who learned French in school never used it again after they left school because they didn't need it. So why spend even more resources on a European language that most people will never use.

There is far more chance of you meeting an Irish person speaking Irish in Ireland than someone speaking French.

Hotblack Desiato

VinLieger wrote: »

They have this real ingrained fear of removing it as a mandatory subject which i think many would agree is one of the big issues, as people arent taught a love for the language

Many of the teachers are only doing it because they have to, and kids pick up on that. They may be only small but they're very far from stupid.

Same goes for the other sacred cow that needs to be euthanised, religion.

Hotblack Desiato

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There is far more chance of you meeting an Irish person speaking Irish in Ireland than someone speaking French.

It's summer time in Dublin. You will hear French, German, Japanese, Mandarin spoken in the street a lot quicker than you'll hear Irish.

Electric Sheep

whisky_galore wrote: »

topper75 wrote: »

. However, the vast majority of people know at least a few words of Irish. No immigrant tongue will outstrip Irish in this respect.

Knowing a smattering of random words without being able to string a sentence together does not a living language make. Pretty feeble result for almost a century of resources poured into the failed bilingual experiment.

Brings to mind that Carlberg ad from a few years back.

I have picked up quite a fee words in Russian and Hindi from coworkers. That doesn't mean I speak Russian or Hindi.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Shurimgreat wrote: »

When it comes to something like Irish its either all or nothing ie total immersion, subjects taught through Irish and so on. But there isn't a critical mass of Irish speakers to make this feasible.

I think in time our educational system will have to drop Irish as a mandatory subject. If some don't want to learn it, fair enough. But those who do should be given all the resources needed including significant time spent in the Gaeltacht. I'd advocate the same for those learning German, French etc.

A couple hours a week in the classroom will never compare with immersion in the language for a significant amount of time.

Our point entirely: theer is neither the will nor the resources to make every 0-5 year old learn Irish in emersio from birth. Nor is it fair on kids of ANY age to be tasked with any revival when the adults - both in favour of and against the idea of a revival - have no clue how to do it themselves.

Pugzilla

Boards members are predominately from Dublin (West Brits), and it shows in this thread.

doolox

Two of my Uncles were British.
My eldest sister was born in Britain.
My father and mother got their training and start in their jobs in Britain at a time of mass poverty and depression in Ireland.
As a nation we owe a lot to Britain and ordinary British people for giving many Irish people jobs when they were not available at home.
Calling a group of people West Brits is a chauvinistic thing to do.
Many people resident in Ireland have significant connections to our nearest neighbour.
The Irish language as it is imposed and forced on the student body of this country will die out eventually when non speakers are attacked as being somewhat less Irish than speakers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pugzilla wrote: »

Boards members are predominately from Dublin (West Brits), and it shows in this thread.

You mean, those from Dublin have the ability to reseach a topic and come to an informed opinion? Bit harsh, portraying the rest of the country as begrudged reactionary name-callers if you ask me...

Pugzilla

I'm fluent in Irish and proud of it. The country is basically the UK if we lose the language entirely.

whisky_galore

What a great supporter of the language...
* slow clap *

(oh btw, not from Dublin, just so you know)

whisky_galore

Pugzilla wrote: »

I'm fluent in Irish and proud of it. The country is basically the UK if we lose the language entirely.

You mean like the uk, the uk with Scots Gaelic and Welsh?

Pugzilla

The hate people have in this thread for their own language is sad.

whisky_galore

Pugzilla wrote: »

The hate people have in this thread for their own language is sad.

So you promote the language by insulting people who don't use it?

Great technique. No wonder its fcuked.

doolox

People insulted and abused by Irish teachers because they knew little or no Irish and the native speakers treated like Gods because they were fluent so it meant less work and less effort required by the teachers.

Compulsory Irish and the learning of literature and poetry instead of conversational and useful language skills was also drawback in the learning of what was for most an abstract and peripherally useless skill.

In many cases in the West only the native speakers would get the Irish teaching jobs and we anglophones knew it.

As a child, I was not aware of the complete lack of Irish competence East of the Shannon and would probably have given Irish a better shot if I knew then that the demand for Irish teachers was so high. Purely for career purposes.

pawdee

Pugzilla wrote: »

I'm fluent in Irish and proud of it. The country is basically the UK if we lose the language entirely.

Agree 100%

Kneel ayne teen tawn mar duh teen tawn fane!

Un-will cad a gum dull a mock?

SusieBlue

As someone who is fluent and has a great passion for the language, I think the entire system needs to be overhauled or it needs to be scrapped completely.
The current system is deeply flawed, is frustrating for students, and boring and tedious for teachers.
Its a recipe for disaster.

I would like to see it taught through immersion from junior infants on wards, along with another EU language.
No heads in books, no poems, no verbs. Learned organically through speaking it.
A natural way of learning.

If this isn't possible I'd like to see it made optional. The current system is forceful and those that aren't interested are at a disadvantage.
It isn't fair.

facehugger99

Pugzilla wrote: »

I'm fluent in Irish and proud of it. The country is basically the UK if we lose the language entirely.

Weird thing to be proud of.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pugzilla wrote: »

The hate people have in this thread for their own language is sad.

Not my language, bud - go troll somewhere else.

SusieBlue wrote: »

As someone who is fluent and has a great passion for the language, I think the entire system needs to be overhauled or it needs to be scrapped completely.
The current system is deeply flawed, is frustrating for students, and boring and tedious for teachers.
Its a recipe for disaster.

Been saying this for decades. Nothing's changed. There's no will to change even from the people that set the course.

I would like to see it taught through immersion from junior infants on wards, along with another EU language.
No heads in books, no poems, no verbs. Learned organically through speaking it.
A natural way of learning.

Don't have the resources, and a lot of parents would oppose this. Again, no will.

If this isn't possible I'd like to see it made optional. The current system is forceful and those that aren't interested are at a disadvantage.
It isn't fair.

Agree. Having the langauge 100% revived is fantasy, let's be honest. Getting a decent percentage of the population to speak and enjoy it is more realistic, but again - the State is the guts of a century old and nothing's been done. What chance is there of one of them doing something proactive in the next century?

topper75

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I have picked up quite a fee words in Russian and Hindi from coworkers. That doesn't mean I speak Russian or Hindi.

That in itself is a nice cultural exchange, but after all that - in which of the following languages do you have the greatest vocabulary?

Russian, Hindi, Irish?

Because that would be telling.

The claim that Polish is our island's second language is a dodgy one when you consider that the vast majority of people here don't speak a single word of it.

Another myth you hear peddled is that I only did 5 years of French in secondary and I speak more French than Irish. In most cases people cannot speak French at all and may simply be capable of stringing together a boiler plate letter informing some French 'Sophie' or 'Phillipe' that they come from Balbriggan, will be visiting them during the summer and that they aime bien jouer au tennis. That 'visit' invariably never happens for most people ... ever. The whole French thing doesn't stray far beyond An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas on examination years later.

So talk to me again about 'teaching useful languages instead'.

Shurimgreat

Maybe languages should be removed entirely from the school curriculum for reasons outlined in this thread. You are never going to properly learn a language with a couple hours a week in the classroom, whether it be French, Irish, etc.

What little of European languages we learn will be of no use to the majority. If people want to learn such a language let them do it in their own time. Re Irish I think it should be voluntary from maybe 3rd year onwards in secondary school. That way the majority get at least a foundation in it which they can build on if they wish.

Learning a European language was such a 1970s/80s idea which probably came from new membership of the EU and the belief we'd all be communicating daily with French, German, Italian companies. It hasn't turned out that way.

Most of our interactions these days are either with the UK or if working in a large US corporation, the US.

Immersion is probably the only way to increase Irish use.

So I agree with those who say we need to go back to the drawing board in the teaching of languages, not just Irish.

whisky_galore

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Learning a European language was such a 1970s/80s idea which probably came from new membership of the EU and the belief we'd all be communicating daily with French, German, Italian companies. It hasn't turned out that way.

Most of our interactions these days are either with the UK or if working in a large US corporation, the US.

Most people who choose to leave this country to set up shop elsewhere will naturally head to the Anglophone countries, UK, Aus., US, NZ.

Hotblack Desiato

Pugzilla wrote: »

I'm fluent in Irish and proud of it. The country is basically the UK if we lose the language entirely.

You know you can be proud of your own achievements without looking down your nose at and belittling others? Try it some time :rolleyes:

Pugzilla wrote: »

The hate people have in this thread for their own language is sad.

It's not my language. I don't hate the language I hate the way people insist on pushing it on people and telling them they are Brits or not as Irish as they are.

VinLieger

Pugzilla wrote: »

The hate people have in this thread for their own language is sad.

Not my language and thats due to people like you who are so afraid of changing our education system to stop forcing the language on people and instead maybe teach people to enjoy speaking it and give them a better reason to beyond getting a few more points in the leaving

Hotblack Desiato

SusieBlue wrote: »

I would like to see it taught through immersion from junior infants on wards, along with another EU language.

Not possible. The standard of Irish teaching in many primary schools is already fairly poor, the teachers own standard of Irish is not nearly good enough for immersion in many cases. (Never mind trying to do it with another EU language at the same time - how many primary school teachers would be able to do that? and by definition you can only "immerse" in one language at a time, so pick one.)

The teachers to do this aren't there. The parental support required to do this isn't there. The political will to do it isn't there.

If this isn't possible I'd like to see it made optional. The current system is forceful and those that aren't interested are at a disadvantage.
It isn't fair.

Fully agree, it's been a massive waste of resources and has actually been very damaging to the survival of the language.

Pugzilla

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not my language, bud - go troll somewhere else.

Irish is the first official language of the state as per the constitution. Your ancestors spoke Irish for nearly 2 millennia. It's one of the oldest languages in Europe. If you identify as Irish then its your language whether you like it or not.

VinLieger

Pugzilla wrote: »

Irish is the first official language of the state as per the constitution. Your ancestors spoke Irish for nearly 2 millennia. It's one of the oldest languages in Europe. If you identify as Irish then its your language whether you like it or not.

Its funny how much of an inferiority complex you have that you feel the need to tell people what language is or isnt "theirs"

If I was ever asked to point out to an example of the problem with the attitude to the Irish language and why it is spoken so little you would be a perfect choice

whisky_galore

Pugzilla wrote: »

Irish is the first official language of the state as per the constitution. Your ancestors spoke Irish for nearly 2 millennia. It's one of the oldest languages in Europe. If you identify as Irish then its your language whether you like it or not.

Mud-walled thatched cottages are the best known example of vernacular architecture of Ireland.

People have lived in mud-walled thatched cottages here for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Therefore I should live in a thatched cottage if I consider myself truly Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pugzilla wrote: »

Irish is the first official language of the state as per the constitution. Your ancestors spoke Irish for nearly 2 millennia. It's one of the oldest languages in Europe. If you identify as Irish then its your language whether you like it or not.

So not "my" language, then. I am not the state and I am not my nationality. I'm an individual with a free mind.

Who says my ancestors speak Irish? You don't know what language my ancestors spoke. My parents did not speak it, one out of four grandparents spoke it and two more generations back they weren't even Irish.

Who says I identify with being Irish? I've lived most of my adult life abroad by choice in order to get away with narrow-minded socially conservative obstructionist anti-individual bull**** like the stuff in this post. While the country has moved on, I accept, the attitudes most certainly persist with regard to linguistic revival, as you have proven.

keepalive213

I live in the gaeltacht and very few people here are fluent Irish speakers. Id say less that 5% and they would be mostly the older generations who picked it up in their own homes growing up.
In the whole country id say less that 1% are fluent.
I myself have a little bit but of basic gaeilge I learned in school but thats it, I dont think anyone is very likely to become fluent as a result of the school system.
I think the language is doomed but I hope im wrong, I think we're losing our identity. Irish kids today spend their time pouting at phone screens, learning Irish is not as interesting as instagram or snapchat.

Shurimgreat

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So not "my" language, then. I am not the state and I am not my nationality. I'm an individual with a free mind.

Who says my ancestors speak Irish? You don't know what language my ancestors spoke. My parents did speak it, one out of four grandparents spoke it and two more generations back they weren't even Irish.

Who says I identify with being Irish? I've lived most of my adult life abroad by choice in order to get away with narrow-minded socially conservative obstructionist anti-individual bull**** like the stuff in this post. While the country has moved on, I accept, the attitudes most certainly persist with regard to linguistic revival, as you have proven.

Obviously you think Irish is a foreign language then and English is our native language.

You remind me of an American who thinks native Americans should return to their own country. Guess what, a nations culture is often thousands of years old, language is a key ingredient and we are all mere caretakers of that culture to hand over to future generations.

You mightn't agree with the teaching of Irish but some of your standpoints are laughable.