how far should forgiveness go?

Andy From Sligo

recently in the news the sad sad state of the polish lady in Sligo that went missing and then found dead and her husband accused of Murder - as he went into court the family of the victim were in the for the support of the ACCUSED - and the sister of the deceased victim put her arms around the ACCUSED and consoled him in court.

A person (I am presuming family member) has said they have forgiven the accused for what they have done - this murder took place just a few days ago.

I just having trouble to grapple this (even though its the families business and no body else's really as to what they do and how their religion/faith/traditions are) - I have heard of families forgiving someone in years to come of murdering someone close to them ... but in a couple of days though, I find it strange but as i say its up to them. Does anyone else think it unusual?

The poor wee kids (3 of them) left behind to grow up without a mother (and now looks without a father too) - but there is consolation that there seems to be a big family around to help support and bring up the children . I hope they all get on OK bless them - terrible news!

DEFTLEFTHAND

We don't know the facts of the case yet.

Something funny happened here I bet. Not your run of the mill murder.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Shenshen

While I absolutely agree that it is unusual for this forgiveness to happen so fast, I'd still be inclined to take it at face value and not suspect anything sinister behind it.

Many victims and survivors never reach the point where they can forgive the person who hurt them. I'm not sure that it's promoted enough, because I do believe that it's not in fact to the benefit of the perpetrator (assuming they're caught, they will be tried and judged either way), but really to the mental and emotional benefit of the victim(s). It's an act of regaining control over their own lives, of freeing themselves of the dark influence of the past.

So if that family really, honestly managed to forgive him, I actually feel almost a little envious. Not of their pain, which must be massive, but of their achievement in dealing with it.

Andy From Sligo

true about not knowing the full details of the case - the amount of comments left on about it though , some people left shocking comments saying the father should rot in hell, and murdering bastard and should be hanged among other abusive comments... without hearing the full details of the case.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

We don't know the full story at all, so impossible to judge.

How forgiving any of us would be is difficult to say until we are in such a position. People will pontificate, I'm sure, about the need for forgiveness but I'll bet they all will have failed to forgive some wrong or injustice at some time in their lives.

wexie

Without knowing the facts of the case (and without speculating about an ongoing case) it's hard to say really.
But I'd imagine there are any number of scenario's where this could end up making perfect sense.

Granted a good few of those scenario's might come directly from the movies....but who knows, there are plenty strange things happening out there that wouldn't be believable in a book or movie.

Neyite

Alan Hawe's MIL and SIL were very forgiving initially as well...

I'm sure it's all very raw for the family of the victim and likely very much in shock, so perhaps when Gardai investigate further feelings may change.

Mutant z

We need the full facts of the whole situation.

volchitsa

Neyite wrote: »

Alan Hawe's MIL and SIL were very forgiving initially as well...

I'm sure it's all very raw for the family of the victim and likely very much in shock, so perhaps when Gardai investigate further feelings may change.

Yes, this. Initial reactions to something so awful may be affected by the shock and disbelief about the whole thing. Also, if they're religious, as many Polish people are, there may be some pressure on them to officially "forgive". I think that is what happened with the Colls, and it's not impossible that this is similar.

Very sad anyway. RIP.

sarahbb

I personally knew of a case where on e partner snapped and killed the other The whole family were distressed by this just as in this case and made it known from the start that there was no animosity as the couple were under financial stress due to the recession at the thim.

Their opinions were that the couple were very happy and very supportive of each other and that he was always so kind to his partner. The incident was as a result of a conversation about him not being able to get work.
I do wonder if there is something in being raised in a culture within which it is ok to strike another human being or man handle them.

If that is so then the less brawnier person will always be at risk under stress.

Guy:Incognito

....... wrote: »

Has he been convicted of anything yet?

If it was your sister would you be giving him the benefit of the doubt before a conviction?

SEPT 23 1989

sarahbb wrote: »

I personally knew of a case where on e partner snapped and killed the other The whole family were distressed by this just as in this case and made it known from the start that there was no animosity as the couple were under financial stress due to the recession at the thim.

Their opinions were that the couple were very happy and very supportive of each other and that he was always so kind to his partner. The incident was as a result of a conversation about him not being able to get work.
I do wonder if there is something in being raised in a culture within which it is ok to strike another human being or man handle them.

If that is so then the less brawnier person will always be at risk under stress.

Only one "culture" in this country is raised to smack people around

freshpopcorn

A family should be allowed to forgive somebody if they want! It's not really up to me to say who you can and can't forgive.
Life is unusual tough and you don't know anything about people's personal lives and why they might choose to forgive somebody!

biko

"I'd like to preempt the circumstance and jump to a few conclusions before any facts have come to light"

Defunkd

What's the alternative to forgiveness though? I see folks nursing resentments and bitterness for years and years and they seem unable to let it go even though it's poisoning them. The sooner you forgive, no matter the wrong, the better. And before the whataboutery brigade take issue, forgiveness is letting go of the personal right to vengence; it's not about not seeking justice for a wrong committed.

Andy From Sligo

freshpopcorn wrote: »

A family should be allowed to forgive somebody if they want! It's not really up to me to say who you can and can't forgive.
Life is unusual tough and you don't know anything about people's personal lives and why they might choose to forgive somebody!

any time constraints though? - isnt it strange to 'forgive' someone who just killed a close member of your family a few days ago?

Andy From Sligo

Defunkd wrote: »

What's the alternative to forgiveness though? I see folks nursing resentments and bitterness for years and years and they seem unable to let it go even though it's poisoning them. The sooner you forgive, no matter the wrong, the better. And before the whataboutery brigade take issue, forgiveness is letting go of the personal right to vengence; it's not about not seeking justice for a wrong committed.

its not something I could do ... but just because i personally couldnt do it, it doesnt mean its wrong though I suppose.

The thing if God forbid , a member of my family was taken away from me the last thing I would feel like doing is forgiving the murderer. They would be the cause for my grief and the only thing that would stop it eating away at me is definitely not forgiving the murderer who took a member of my family away - that would be the last thing on my mind .. no, I really cannot get my head around why anyone would 'forgive' someones killer - I just cannot get it. and what message is it sending to the killer when you forgive them, do you not want them to feel remorse and pain that they did what they did?

Neyite

sarahbb wrote: »

I personally knew of a case where on e partner snapped and killed the other The whole family were distressed by this just as in this case and made it known from the start that there was no animosity as the couple were under financial stress due to the recession at the thim.

Their opinions were that the couple were very happy and very supportive of each other and that he was always so kind to his partner. The incident was as a result of a conversation about him not being able to get work.

Indeed. Perfectly understandable he murdered her then, asking those sort of pesky questions. :rolleyes:

Or...and here's a rather radical idea but hear me out: he could not violently murder his wife for a situation she was not the cause of, and for a situation that thousands of couples in the last decade have faced and have managed to not murder each other over.

freshpopcorn

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

any time constraints though? - isnt it strange to 'forgive' someone who just killed a close member of your family a few days ago?

It hard to know until your in the situation!

Andy From Sligo

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It hard to know until your in the situation!

agreed - but i think you can have a pretty good enough idea what you would act like in a situation?

AllForIt

Context.

freshpopcorn

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

agreed - but i think you can have a pretty good enough idea what you would act like in a situation?

Just trying to think of it in my head. Take this for example.
If one of my siblings were had a very abusive husband/wife and they went onto kill them. It would take me time to forgive them.
If my sibling was the abusive person in a relationship and their partner eventually flipped out and killed them. I think I'd forgive them fairly fast.

JupiterKid

The late Senator Gordon Wilson was prepared to forgive the IRA for murdering his 19 year old daughter Marie at a War Rememberance bombing atrocity in Enniskillen in 1987. She literally died in his arms in the rubble.

I’m not a religious person but that was an incredibly brave and Christian thing to do. I would like to think I would be able to forgive someone who hurt me - it’s being the bigger person.

Hitman3000

I like everyone else don't know the dynamics of the situation so I wouldn't pass judgement, other than to say my heart goes out to the children who now have lost both parents.

metaoblivia

I think forgiveness is a very personal, and it ultimately depends on what makes the victim (for lack of a better word) feel best about the situation. For some, forgiveness helps them to feel they've achieved closure and have moved on. Others can come to terms with whatever happened and move on without forgiving the transgressor (particularly if they haven't taken responsibility for their actions or sought forgiveness).

corks finest

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

We don't know the facts of the case yet.

Something funny happened here I bet. Not your run of the mill murder.

She was strangled,no it's or buts

CollyFlower

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Just trying to think of it in my head. Take this for example.
If one of my siblings were had a very abusive husband/wife and they went onto kill them. It would take me time to forgive them.
If my sibling was the abusive person in a relationship and their partner eventually flipped out and killed them. I think I'd forgive them fairly fast.

My thoughts exactly. Think this is what may have happened.

Graces7

Until and unless you forgive, you will never heal or recover.

It is a hard lesson

This reminds me of the Amish

https://www.npr.org/2016/09/30/495905609/a-decade-after-amish-school-shooting-gunman-s-mother-talks-of-forgiveness

volchitsa

Graces7 wrote: »

Until and unless you forgive, you will never heal or recover.

It is a hard lesson

This reminds me of the Amish

https://www.npr.org/2016/09/30/495905609/a-decade-after-amish-school-shooting-gunman-s-mother-talks-of-forgiveness

That's a decade later. Not a couple of days or weeks.

I agree that forgiveness is probably the best way of managing to live again after such a violent act has happened in a family, but I don't think it can happen immediately. Even in the case of the violent sibling, as was mentioned above, I think that unless you already wish that person died, IMO the shock and sorrow at their death just takes a certain time to process before you can get to the point of forgiving the killer. You'd think they should have come to you, gone to the police etc. You wouldn't think "Ah well sure what odds", you just wouldn't.


TL, DR: I don't believe "forgiveness" just days after the violent murder of someone you love is genuine, and I suspect that our Christian culture of forgiving your enemy puts people who are still in shock under pressure to parrot words that are not their genuine feelings.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I posted on here before that I'll always love my son no matter he does in his life.

Somebody posted back even if he became a serial killer.


Obviously a person who does not have a child.


Us parents have a thing called unconditional love.


My boy could grow up to be the next Charles Manson, but I will neve abandon him, no matter what.