Turning a house into a masionette

James 007

Has any person/landlord out there converted a first floor box room into a kitchen. I have put this up in the DIY section of boards but got little responses. The box room is currently a single bedroom and the room is located over the front door of the house.

The plan would be for me to take over the ground floor of the house giving me the front original sitting room as a bedroom, rear room is a family room leading out to the extended dining room and kitchen. I would already have a down stairs shower and toilet.

For the first floor the two large rooms would let out as one twin room and one double room or two twin rooms. The single box would be converted to a kitchen. Electric shower/bath tub/toilet already on the first floor and the attic would be used as a sitting room. Bills will be at a fixed rate.

What I would like to get is comments on how to run the water hot/cold to the box room for the sink, washing machine and also the drain run. Has anyone done this before. The room has a 4" vent on the wall for the cooker extract. Any thoughts welcome.

endacl

No suggestions as to the build. Just make sure you're not making it an entirely separate unit though, or you'll be stuck with tenants rather than licensees.

Subtle

OP, it sounds from the question like this job is too much for your DIY skills and you should be getting a plumber out to discuss and price the job. All water supplies are accessible in the attic - mains and hot etc. and bringing them down is straight-forward if necessary. As for the drain side of things, one would really need to see the situation to judge what's best routing-wise.

James 007

Subtle wrote: »

OP, it sounds from the question like this job is too much for your DIY skills and you should be getting a plumber out to discuss and price the job. All water supplies are accessible in the attic - mains and hot etc. and bringing them down is straight-forward if necessary. As for the drain side of things, one would really need to see the situation to judge what's best routing-wise.

Thanks for that. I can take the cold supply from the mains on the ground floor or from the watertank which is in part of the closed attic. Can I ask why would we have the hot supply feeding to the attic, is this an overfeed for water expansion etc. I think I also have a route for the sink/washing machine drain. Behind the dishwasher in the current kitchen there is a 1.5 inch drain pipe standing vertically for about 1m height. So the plan would be drop similar points from first floor bedroom to a horz 1.5 inch line under the first floor and aim to get to this point at ceiling level and then drop vertically down to behind the dish washer. I think it will be easy enough to do this.

4ensic15

The better way to convert is to make the largest upstairs room a kitchen living room and have the other rooms as box rooms. Planning permission is required and compliance with building regs will be necessary. You will have to submit drawings and have a project manager.

Subtle

James 007 wrote: »

Can I ask why would we have the hot supply feeding to the attic, is this an overfeed for water expansion etc

Doh! Sorry, I was asleep earlier! Anyway, it sounds like you're more on top of things than I thought. With drains routing though, just bear in mind that the simpler the better in case there are problems down the line etc.

mrslancaster

James 007 wrote: »

Has any person/landlord out there converted a first floor box room into a kitchen. I have put this up in the DIY section of boards but got little responses. The box room is currently a single bedroom and the room is located over the front door of the house.

The plan would be for me to take over the ground floor of the house giving me the front original sitting room as a bedroom, rear room is a family room leading out to the extended dining room and kitchen. I would already have a down stairs shower and toilet.

For the first floor the two large rooms would let out as one twin room and one double room or two twin rooms. The single box would be converted to a kitchen. Electric shower/bath tub/toilet already on the first floor and the attic would be used as a sitting room. Bills will be at a fixed rate.

What I would like to get is comments on how to run the water hot/cold to the box room for the sink, washing machine and also the drain run. Has anyone done this before. The room has a 4" vent on the wall for the cooker extract. Any thoughts welcome.

A friend did it and ended up with a really nice 1 bed flat. They made the box room the kitchen and removed the wall between the front bedroom and box room. The back bedroom and bathroom stayed the same. They divided the front entrance to keep it completely separate and rented it with no problems. They didn't have the attic converted though and I've no idea about the planning side of things.

From what I've read on different threads, there's different rules about keeping it separate and keeping it as part of the original house when it's for rental. Lots of great information and help on here - good luck

Gumbo

You may have some planning issues.
You will have building regulation issues by creating a kitchen upstairs which is a room that fire can start in more rapidly. You will now have 2 of these rooms in one dwelling.

Ensure fire safety provisions are out in place.

It may appear to be a sub division to the planning authority and that means they can open enforcement action if no planning is granted.

Also Fire Prevention Officers May get involved if a complaint is received.

Technically possible once done correctly.

the_syco

James 007 wrote: »

For the first floor the two large rooms would let out as one twin room and one double room or two twin rooms. The single box would be converted to a kitchen.

Would said single room (that will become the kitchen) be over the main entrance/exit? Would this be against any fire rule?

James 007

the_syco wrote: »

Would said single room (that will become the kitchen) be over the main entrance/exit? Would this be against any fire rule?

I dont think there is a rule on this, but I will check the Regs to be sure.

Glass fused light

James 007 wrote: »

Thanks for that. I can take the cold supply from the mains on the ground floor or from the watertank which is in part of the closed attic. Can I ask why would we have the hot supply feeding to the attic, is this an overfeed for water expansion etc. I think I also have a route for the sink/washing machine drain. Behind the dishwasher in the current kitchen there is a 1.5 inch drain pipe standing vertically for about 1m height. So the plan would be drop similar points from first floor bedroom to a horz 1.5 inch line under the first floor and aim to get to this point at ceiling level and then drop vertically down to behind the dish washer. I think it will be easy enough to do this.

Drinking water is only drinking water if pulled directly form the public water main, dont pulling a kitchen tap off the water tank.

handlemaster

Cant see OP getting planning approval for this

James 007

Glass fused light wrote: »

Drinking water is only drinking water if pulled directly form the public water main, dont pulling a kitchen tap off the water tank.

Your right, I suppose when I say pull it off the water tank I mean the supply the feeds into the watertank. The alternative is to take it from the supply feeding into the house at the open/close valve.

James 007

handlemaster wrote: »

Cant see OP getting planning approval for this

I'm just wondering do you actually need planning permission for this or not. Building Control may need to the change of use of the bedroom to a kitchen as do your insurance company. Do you have any information pointing to where planning permission is required.

handlemaster

James 007 wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

Cant see OP getting planning approval for this

I'm just wondering do you actually need planning permission for this or not. Building Control may need to the change of use of the bedroom to a kitchen as do your insurance company. Do you have any information pointing to where planning permission is required.

Of course you need planning . If not every landlord would be doing it.

4ensic15

James 007 wrote: »

I'm just wondering do you actually need planning permission for this or not. Building Control may need to the change of use of the bedroom to a kitchen as do your insurance company. Do you have any information pointing to where planning permission is required.

Planning and Development Act, 2000
3.—(1) In this Act, “development” means, except where the context otherwise requires, the carrying out of any works on, in, over or under land or the making of any material change in the use of any structures or other land.




(3) For the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby declared that, for the purposes of this section, the use as two or more dwellings of any house previously used as a single dwelling involves a material change in the use of the structure and of each part thereof which is so used.

Doop

What you are describing is a sub-division therefore you will most likely need to apply for a fire safety cert. Get some professional advice form a architect/ Building Surveyor/ engineer. Its more more than a hodge podge DIY job.

James 007

4ensic15 wrote: »

Planning and Development Act, 2000
3.—(1) In this Act, “development” means, except where the context otherwise requires, the carrying out of any works on, in, over or under land or the making of any material change in the use of any structures or other land.




(3) For the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby declared that, for the purposes of this section, the use as two or more dwellings of any house previously used as a single dwelling involves a material change in the use of the structure and of each part thereof which is so used.

Thanks for that, I should of checked it myself. So planning is required and also a fire cert with regards the material change.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-dublin-fire-rescue-and-emergency-ambulance-service-fire-safety-legislation/faq#Which%20developments%20require%20a%20Fire%20Safety%20Certificate

Spanish Eyes

The Government should be actively encouraging this type of division of a dwelling. It seems to be very prevalent in the UK.

Imagine if a householder who is getting on in years (like meself!) has enough space downstairs, and converted upstairs to a self contained apartment. Householder stays in the same area, has company in the house, and a tax free income on Rent a Room. It might also keep rents down somewhat to the maximum annual tax free amount too. Win win.

I wish the Housing Department would think outside the box. If planning and fire regs are required, that's ok, but this kind of thing is not actively encouraged at all. I would go so far as to say some incentives should be offered to those who would willingly house others in their own homes.

Ah well, may as well dream on.

_Kaiser_

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The Government should be actively encouraging this type of division of a dwelling. It seems to be very prevalent in the UK.

Imagine if a householder who is getting on in years (like meself!) has enough space downstairs, and converted upstairs to a self contained apartment. Householder stays in the same area, has company in the house, and a tax free income on Rent a Room. It might also keep rents down somewhat to the maximum annual tax free amount too. Win win.

I wish the Housing Department would think outside the box. If planning and fire regs are required, that's ok, but this kind of thing is not actively encouraged at all. I would go so far as to say some incentives should be offered to those who would willingly house others in their own homes.

Ah well, may as well dream on.

I disagree - and to clarify, I refer to the idea itself here, not the OP's specific example.. to me it comes across as a cynical attempt to take advantage of the current rental crisis by knocking together a separate "apartment" in a house not designed for it, and little better than the shoving of multiple beds into rooms not designed to accommodate them.

We need proper housing and apartment stock.. not DIY shortcuts.

If you want to rent rooms in your house then there's existing rules/structures to allow you to do so.

Doop

Doop wrote: »

What you are describing is a sub-division therefore you will most likely need to apply for a fire safety cert. Get some professional advice form a architect/ Building Surveyor/ engineer. Its more more than a hodge podge DIY job.

It's not a subdivision once the op keeps a common front door it's the same house, the person is he rents to is simply renting a room from him but happens to have use of a kitchen and bathroom that the op chooses not to use regularly.

handlemaster wrote: »

Of course you need planning . If not every landlord would be doing it.

This thread has nothing to do with LLs, the op is asking a question about altering his private residence. If he invites a guest to stay that changes nothing in this respect.

doolox

It has no interest in providing an increase in the rent a room scheme or converting family homes into 1 bed apartments.

It would lose too much tax revenue if it allowed and expansion of the rent a room scheme or loosened the restrictions pertaining to it.

4ensic15

Achilles Uptight Thankfulness wrote: »

It's not a subdivision once the op keeps a common front door it's the same house, the person is he rents to is simply renting a room from him but happens to have use of a kitchen and bathroom that the op chooses not to use regularly.

Tell that to the planners. Two dwellings would be created. The Planning Act deals specifically with such a situation.
It would also devalue the house by the cost of de-converting it. No bank will mortgage whilst it is in two units. It is an unwise thing to do. Aside from all the hassle with planning, extra insurance costs, extra maintenance and repairs and having to register with the RTB, the quality of life with a tenant stomping around upstairs would not be great.

Mrs OBumble

4ensic15 wrote: »

the quality of life with a tenant stomping around upstairs would not be great.

Whereas the quality of life with upstairs empty and unused (because the older person cannot climb the stairs) and with less income (ie no rent from upstairs) is so much better?

The planning laws are because the middle classes dread having to share their neighbourhoods with people who don't live the same way they do. Everyone needs their own little box, and all the little boxes need to be the same. Two kitchens in one house? Horrors .. can't have that.

There should be nothing wrong with making better use of existing housing stock, in a country with such low density as we have.

4ensic15

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Whereas the quality of life with upstairs empty and unused (because the older person cannot climb the stairs) and with less income (ie no rent from upstairs) is so much better?

The planning laws are because the middle classes dread having to share their neighbourhoods with people who don't live the same way they do. Everyone needs their own little box, and all the little boxes need to be the same. Two kitchens in one house? Horrors .. can't have that.

There should be nothing wrong with making better use of existing housing stock, in a country with such low density as we have.

The rooms upstairs can be let as they are. Tax free. Better use of the housing stock would be enabling elderly people to move to more suitable, smaller accommodation and letting families live in the house.

James 007

4ensic15 wrote: »

Tell that to the planners. Two dwellings would be created. The Planning Act deals specifically with such a situation.
It would also devalue the house by the cost of de-converting it. No bank will mortgage whilst it is in two units. It is an unwise thing to do. Aside from all the hassle with planning, extra insurance costs, extra maintenance and repairs and having to register with the RTB, the quality of life with a tenant stomping around upstairs would not be great.

Unfortunately for myself it is getting increasingly difficult to get a good apartment for a good rental price. I'd only covert it for piece of mind having a place where I can stay permanently. If I were then to sell it I would convert it back to its original bedroom. I know there would be a headache with the planning permission/insurance etc but sometimes you just need to somehow secure your own space.

Gumbo

James 007 wrote: »

I'm just wondering do you actually need planning permission for this or not. Building Control may need to the change of use of the bedroom to a kitchen as do your insurance company. Do you have any information pointing to where planning permission is required.

Building control will tell you to go get planning and come back to them with a Commencement Notice, Fire Cert and DAC

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

Tell that to the planners. Two dwellings would be created. The Planning Act deals specifically with such a situation.
It would also devalue the house by the cost of de-converting it. No bank will mortgage whilst it is in two units. It is an unwise thing to do. Aside from all the hassle with planning, extra insurance costs, extra maintenance and repairs and having to register with the RTB, the quality of life with a tenant stomping around upstairs would not be great.

Register with the RTB? The RTB have absolutely nothing to do with this situation, the op can freely walk upstairs in his house as he pleases. This is no different to a granny flat, in fact this is even more a part of the same house than a granny flat. There is nothing but a home owner and his guest (licensee).

kceire wrote: »

Building control will tell you to go get planning and come back to them with a Commencement Notice, Fire Cert and DAC

I think his point is who is going to find a planning issue inside a house? Im not condoning it in the slightest but doing stuff without planning is common all over the country from what I've seen. Again I'm not saying anyone should ignore planning just making the point about what happens.

4ensic15

Achilles Uptight Thankfulness wrote: »

Register with the RTB? The RTB have absolutely nothing to do with this situation, the op can freely walk upstairs in his house as he pleases. This is no different to a granny flat, in fact this is even more a part of the same house than a granny flat. There is nothing but a home owner and his guest (licensee).

If it is a separate dwelling , even a granny flat has to be registered.

See Section 25

25.—(1) This Part does not apply to a tenancy of a dwelling where the conditions specified in subsection (2) are satisfied if the landlord of the dwelling opts, in accordance with subsection (3), for this Part not to apply to it.

(2) Those conditions are—

(a) the dwelling concerned is one of 2 dwellings within a building,

(b) that building, as originally constructed, comprised a single dwelling, and

(c) the landlord resides in the other dwelling.

(3) A landlord's opting as mentioned in subsection (1) shall be signified in writing in a notice served by him or her on the tenant before the commencement of the tenancy.

Spanish Eyes

4ensic15 wrote: »

The rooms upstairs can be let as they are. Tax free. Better use of the housing stock would be enabling elderly people to move to more suitable, smaller accommodation and letting families live in the house.

Fine, but surely the homeowner is liable to income tax on the entire rent for the house in that scenario?

Anyway, from what I have seen a great number of ordinary terraced and semis in London have been converted to flats. Doesn't seem to be an issue there, as it is very common to see.

I just cannot see why the upstairs, or downstairs in a person's home is not incentivised these days to be converted into a self contained unit. Nor will planning allow a habitable cabin in often huge back gardens either. But there must be some logic that I am missing.

A basement self contained flat in some of those older villas in SCD qualify for RAR scheme, but not in ordinary suburbia because the flat would be upstairs

4ensic15

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Fine, but surely the homeowner is liable to income tax on the entire rent for the house in that scenario?


A basement self contained flat in some of those older villas in SCD qualify for RAR scheme, but not in ordinary suburbia because the flat would be upstairs

The owner should sell and move to smaller accommodation. It is far too difficult to do it. RAR has nothing to do with planning. It is a tax issue. Trying to convert a building which has been constructed for one use into something else is fraught with problems. Just because something is done in London doesn't mean it is a good idea or should be done here. People died to throw the English out of this country and their house conversions with them they left us with the worst slums in Europe which took 50 years to clear out.