Schools Admissions Bill - Secondary

SusanC10

Can anyone tell me what this new Bill will mean for Secondary School Admissions ?

I am reading a lot about how it will affect Primary Schools but not much about Secondary and also that there will be a 5 year lead in time frame but then this morning heard that it will apply to Sept 2019 but again mostly referencing Primary.

Specifically, we wish to send our Daughter to a Catholic All-Girls Secondary School which is over-subscribed.
At the moment the Enrolment Policy is a First-Come / First-Served List with priority given to children of Staff & Past Pupils and also Siblings.
Our Daughter's name has been on the List since she was 2. If things remained unchanged she would definitely be offered a place. She has 4 years left in Primary School. We do not live near to the Secondary School and do not wish for her to attend the Secondary closest to us.

Does anyone know how this will affect us ?

Thanks in advance .

evolving_doors

SusanC10 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what this new Bill will mean for Secondary School Admissions ?

I am reading a lot about how it will affect Primary Schools but not much about Secondary and also that there will be a 5 year lead in time frame but then this morning heard that it will apply to Sept 2019 but again mostly referencing Primary.

Specifically, we wish to send our Daughter to a Catholic All-Girls Secondary School which is over-subscribed.
At the moment the Enrolment Policy is a First-Come / First-Served List with priority given to children of Staff & Past Pupils and also Siblings.
Our Daughter's name has been on the List since she was 2. If things remained unchanged she would definitely be offered a place. She has 4 years left in Primary School. We do not live near to the Secondary School and do not wish for her to attend the Secondary closest to us.

Does anyone know how this will affect us ?

Thanks in advance .

I would think that it wouldn't apply to you anyway as the 'religion of the child' criteria never featured on that school's enrollment policy.
Can you get the policy from their website and have a look at the criteria in the case of oversubscription.
Also, as your not in the area, does it say it gives priority to those within a certain area... or those who went to certain primary schools?

SusanC10

I meant the wider Bill not just relating to Religion. I have read that the Bill will also ban Waiting Lists.

The School in particular operates a Waiting List system with preference for children of Staff & Past Pupils and then Siblings having priority. We have been given a number and based on that number and the normal intake of Pupils our Daughter will get a place.

My concern is what will happen when the Bill when enacted bans Waiting Lists.

Peregrinus

The amendments published by the Minister regarding religion-linked admission criteria only refer to primary schools. Obviously that could change as the legislation is debated in the Oireachtas but, as of now, there's no proposal to change the law as it currently applies to post-primary schools.

As regards priority for long-standing applicants, the rule banning this will apply to all "recognised schools", including post-primary schools. However there's to be a five-year transitional period, during which promises already made of according priority to long-standing applicants may be honoured. Since your daughter will be leaving primary school in 4 years, you would be covered by this, if the school that you have registered with does in fact have a policy of preferring long-standing applicants, which I think you indicate it does.

SusanC10

Peregrinus wrote: »

As regards priority for long-standing applicants, the rule banning this will apply to all "recognised schools", including post-primary schools. However there's to be a five-year transitional period, during which promises already made of according priority to long-standing applicants may be honoured.

Thanks. I have been trying to find some recent and definitive saying about the 5 year transitional period but I have only seen it referred to in one newspaper article.

evolving_doors

SusanC10 wrote: »

Thanks. I have been trying to find some recent and definitive saying about the 5 year transitional period but I have only seen it referred to in one newspaper article.

The Irish times had an article with a similar question

Q. I hear there are also plans to ban school waiting lists. Does this mean my child will lose his second level place?

A. A ban on waiting lists for all schools is due to come into force, aimed at ensuring children who move to a new area are not disadvantaged.

Instead, there will be a three-week enrolment window in the year prior to admission.

However, there is due to be a five-year phasing-in period for this provision once the legislation is enacted (estimated to be September 2019).

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/q-a-how-will-baptism-barrier-removal-affect-my-child-1.3488455

three-week enrolment window in the year prior to admission.

Would that mean 1st come 1st served, i.e. deckchairs and mega queues outside some schools?
Or just default to whatever the criteria is? (Age, Address, Siblings etc)

Peregrinus

evolving_doors wrote: »

. . . would that mean 1st come 1st served, i.e. deckchairs and mega queues outside some schools?
Or just default to whatever the criteria is? (Age, Address, Siblings etc)

No. The school can prioritise those whose applications are received during the enrolment window over those who apply after the the window has closed. But, as between those who have applied during the window, it can't prioritise applicattions according to the date they were received; it has to use other permissible criteria. So there will be no advantage to queueing overnight.

SusanC10

Thanks for the replies. Fingers crossed for the 5 year lead-in period.

Peregrinus

It crucially matter that the school has already told you they have a first-in, first-served policy, and that you are not simply presuming that early registration secures priority. The exemption only applies to schools who have told people they will get this treatment.

SusanC10

Peregrinus wrote: »

It crucially matter that the school has already told you they have a first-in, first-served policy, and that you are not simply presuming that early registration secures priority. The exemption only applies to schools who have told people they will get this treatment.

Yes, we have a letter from the School from when we put our Daughter's Name down on the List when she was 2 years old confirming the Number on the List and a copy of the Enrolment Policy attached.

SusanC10

The below article seems to suggest changes to Waiting Lists from Academic Year 2020/21. Does the 5 year transition period start then ?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/baptism-barrier-lifted-as-schools-cant-choose-pupils-based-on-religion-37379362.html

km79

SusanC10 wrote: »

The below article seems to suggest changes to Waiting Lists from Academic Year 2020/21. Does the 5 year transition period start then ?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/baptism-barrier-lifted-as-schools-cant-choose-pupils-based-on-religion-37379362.html

From 2020/21 implies that from September 2020 waiting lists will no longer exist so I Would assume we are now currently in the transition period

SusanC10

The Irish Times article (May 2018) referenced above had indicated that the 5 year transition period would start when the legislation was enacted but today,s Independent article seems to suggest otherwise.

It makes a difference to us as our daughter is due to start Secondary School in 2022 and going by the earlier Article she would still have her place but by the later one she will not.

km79

SusanC10 wrote: »

The Irish Times article (May 2018) referenced above had indicated that the 5 year transition period would start when the legislation was enacted but today,s Independent article seems to suggest otherwise.

It makes a difference to us as our daughter is due to start Secondary School in 2022 and going by the earlier Article she would still have her place but by the later one she will not.

It doesn’t mean necessarily she won’t have her place though
It means the waiting list will be abolished and other criteria will apply which will be less stringent than they are now ? In their own words they are trying to move to a “first come first served “ model (however that will work ........) and you can still apply a year in advance .
I just spotted you have said there is a secondary school nearer to you that you don’t wnat her to go to for your own reasons . I’m afraid this is one of the practices they are trying to eliminate ........

SusanC10

For us the timing of these changes will be the key.

Peregrinus

The recent legislation amends the Education Act 1998.

As amended, the 1998 Act will provide:

- The school must have an admission policy (s. 62(1))

- The admission criteria under the policy must not take into account the date and time on which an admission application is received by the school (s. 62(7)(e)(vii)). (This is the provision which will ban the practice of prioritising children whose applications are first received.)

- However, by way of exception to that rule, the school may prioritise based on the date of application if, before these changes come into force, the school has confirmed in writing that it has placed the child’s name on a list for the allocation of places for the school year concerned (s. 62(11)(a))

- But that exception expires 5 years after the date the changes come into force (s.62(11)(b)).

Right. According to the Indo article these particular changes are to come into force “for the 2020/21 school year”, which I think must mean they will come into force on some date between September 2019 and September 2020. (The Minister will have made an order specifying an exact date, but the Indo article does not tell us what date that is. Let’s assume for the purposes of illustration that it’s 1 January 2020.)

So, if you put little Johnny’s name down for St. Bastard’s, and if you get a letter from St. Bastard’s before 1 January 2020 saying “little Johnny is on our list for admission in [year]”, you are within the exception and the school can, if it wishes, prioritise little Johnny on the basis of the date his application was received.

But this exception expires on (on our assumption) 1 January 2025. So if Little Johnny is just 6 months old, and won’t be due to enter St. Bastard’s until September 2030, by the time he’s due to go there will be no exception and little Johnny’s application can’t enjoy any priority over later-received applications purely because it was received first.

In your case your daughter is due to start in 2022, so you should be fine. The Indo article doesn’t mention the 5-year exception but that doesn’t mean it has disappeared; it just means the Indo left it out in their story. The 5-year exception is written into the legislation passed by the Oireachtas; the Minister has power to determine when that legislation comes into force, but he has no power to vary or alter it by, e.g., deleting the 5-year exception.

-

SusanC10

Thank you Peregrinus. Your explanation is very clear.

SusanC10

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-have-five-years-to-phase-out-waiting-lists-under-new-rules-1.4141081?mode=amp

Does this mean that the 5 years starts from September 2021 ?