The mess on the Grand Canal

Rechuchote

fatknacker wrote: »

Can't blame people men for widdling on the streets if there are no toilets. People Men need to pee. There are no toilets. Establishments say theirs are for customers only. What's a person to do. Try being a woman with a full bladder. It's not fun.

Fixed your P.

thebaz

heebusjeebus wrote: »

It's not just Irish people making a mess of the place. Plenty of foreigners there too.
It was a disgrace though.

It is an Irish thing though - as soon as the sum comes out Irish people think they have a right to just dump ther waste wherever - bottles/ plastic bottles/food debris / nappies - its a horrible trait that I hate in many Irish - obvioulsy not all , but a good 20% , and not just kids - those dumping nappies are hardly such

irlirishkev

fatknacker wrote: »

Can't blame people for widdling on the streets if there are no toilets. People need to pee. There are no toilets. Establishments say theirs are for customers only. What's a person to do. Try being a woman with a full bladder. It's not fun.

Rechuchote wrote: »

Fixed your P.

Believe me, women do it too, they just hide behind the bush/tree/wall instead of up against it. Some don't even bother doing that.

Anyway, back on topic - Down with litterbugs!

GreeBo

I was in Marlay Park at the (glorious) weekend and it was the exact same.

There was a family sitting on the grass beside the main playground, the "father" finished his flagon of cider and just pushed the empty bottle into the hedge behind him without a second thought. I'd be willing to bet they stood up and left whatever crap they didnt want on the ground behind them.

The crazy thing is these are the very same people who give out about the "state of the place", talk about sh1tting in your own backyard.
They probably smash their own bus shelters too!


Add to that the terribly civic minded people who bring their empties to a bottle bank after a bank holiday weekend and then just abandon the bottles, bags and all beside them when they are full.

Who exactly do they think is going to sort and tidy all that up?

The entitlement is strong with these ones.

L1011

Riskymove wrote: »

yes basically only alcohol is left in glass bottles and at that only a perentage

it used to be that all milk and soft drink etc were in glass and the scheme was then viable

if a glass and plastic return scheme was introduced it may be viable

It was viable because of the bottles being washed and reused (not recycled by crushing/melting/reforming as they are now); and plastic bottles simply not existing. The second PET bottles came out they ceased being viable.

The international government-run schemes are all glass and plastic.

loyatemu wrote: »

Heineken and Carlsberg are brewed and bottled here.

Only draught Heineken is brewed here these days, although its possible they do bottle it here after bulk tankering. Cans/bottles are Dutch brewed.

Assetbacked

The introduction of a nominal financial incentive for returning cans and bottles is essentially contracting cleaners for ****e all money. To many, the refund is so low that it would not be worth the hassle but for others it is seen as a fantastic opportunity to make some cash ("One man's trash is another man's gold"). I think vested interests in the Corpo would invent reasons to not implement it. However, I think it can only be a positive scheme to introduce.

The article quoted in this thread which outlined a roll-out cost is misleading as the roll-out cost is funded by the scheme itself.

spurious

spurious wrote: »

Just back from Sweden where the refund is about 10c on a 500ml plastic bottle and 20c on the bigger ones.

What really grinds my gears is when the filth that leave a place in the state Portobello was in say 'oh that's the Corporation's job'. Parenting strikes again.

Last Saturday evening, I noticed a couple of Gardai and some security people around. The crowd seemed more scattered than usual. Maybe some effort is being made to stop such crowds congregating in the one place.

There's no excuse for people littering and not taking their rubbish home with them.

hatrickpatrick

What people persistently miss about the lifestyle of many young people in Dublin is that most of them aren't going "home" after an outdoor session, they're moving on to a bar or club when it gets dark. You can't bring a crate of empty bottles into Coppers or Diceys with you, hence they leave it behind. And whether you like it or not, trying to convince them to go home and them come back out - which in some cases would involve a lengthy bus or train journey - just won't fly.

The real issue is that Dublin isn't designed for the outdoor social lifestyle at all. Outdoor spaces are designed with the mentality that if you're outside, you're just transiting from A to B. The idea of a large crowd of people congregating in a public space to have an outdoor day of socialising simply doesn't seem to have occurred to any city planners, hence the lack of public toilets and bins, the scarcity of outdoor seating, laws against drinking and loitering in public, etc. The problem is that this kind of lifestyle is now insanely popular and young people have simply rejected the idea that living and socialising in non-private spaces should be off limits. Why should it? Outdoor public spaces in the city should be kitted out for and designed to actually be used by people for things other than just "passing through".

Name one other city in Europe which doesn't have one single public toilet anywhere within it. I can't think of one. Down at Sandycove where I live, we never have any public urination problems despite the huge crowds of people who gather to drink and enjoy the sun together - why is this? Because there are several public toilets in and around the hotspots for social gatherings. Here's one of them:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.287344,-6.1150587,3a,24.5y,326.72h,82.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKqNhabgtW1sUssvsEcJ-Ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Regarding noise, I'd say the same thing to people that I say to people in the Croke Park threads - if you want a quiet, suburban style life then don't live in the middle of a capital city in a modern country. I live beside a large and very noisy outdoor market which takes place every weekend, but I don't complain about it because that's simple the price one pays for choosing to live in a busy area and not a remote or rural one.

The anti-public attitude by a lot of Irish people really amazes me, the idea that people shouldn't be able to use and enjoy public amenities. I'm not defending litter, but come on - Dublin is the capital city of Ireland and home to several million people. It is moronic that its outdoor spaces, such as the canal banks, are not equipped with the necessary facilities (seating, toilets, bins) for people to enjoy them for more than an hour at a time without having to go somewhere else to pee / throw away their stuff / sit down.

Ireland has a gigantic problem with "hostile design" as far as the utilisation of public spaces goes, and the situation at the canal over the weekend is a direct result of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_architecture

Most people in Ireland, particularly young people, simply do not want to live the way the powers that be want us to live. And it's very obvious that it's impossible for them to prevent it, so why can't they at least facilitate it properly?

Teyla Emmagan

hatrickpatrick wrote:

Most people in Ireland, particularly young people, simply do not want to live the way the powers that be want us to live. And it's very obvious that it's impossible for them to prevent it, so why can't they at least facilitate it properly?

We only have about 5 good days a year, we can't redesign the city around them. And there are more people living in Dublin than young people who want to go drinking. It's not too much to ask that people don't leave their rubbish outside your house and pee in your garden. People just need to have some respect and not act like a&&holes. If they behaved better the council might be more willing to facilitate 'outdoor living'.

mattser

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

We only have about 5 good days a year, we can't redesign the city around them. And there are more people living in Dublin than young people who want to go drinking. It's not too much to ask that people don't leave their rubbish outside your house and pee in your garden. People just need to have some respect and not act like a&&holes. If they behaved better the council might be more willing to facilitate 'outdoor living'.

Correct. Never mind the few hot days.

Every night the cartons/papers etc from the local fast food joints in our cities and towns and villages, are just flung on the ground. Despite there being a bin within arms reach in most cases.

A poster earlier in the thread, was told to fcuk off when they challenged one little sh1t about it.

Never mind the Gardai and Councils etc, the biggest reason for this behaviour is the self entitled perpetrators who have no pride and couldn't care less about their community.

dhaughton99

Repak would never allow a bottle return scheme, it would be messing with their agenda and profits.

“Overall, the empirical evidence and reviews considered in this report lead to the conclusion that there is no rationale or justification for introducing a deposit system in Ireland and that the costs involved would be significant, including the effects on Ireland’s existing packaging waste compliance infrastructure.”

https://www.repak.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/PMCA-Report-on-Deposit-and-Return-Scheme-in-Ireland-041217-FINAL.pdf

hatrickpatrick

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

We only have about 5 good days a year, we can't redesign the city around them. And there are more people living in Dublin than young people who want to go drinking.

I'm mking a more general point, that the city itself should have outdoor, public facilities rather than assuming that everyone in it either lives there or is on their way to a business premises of some kind. Most modern cities are designed like this, why does Ireland always have to be the exception when it comes to common sense public policy?

It's not too much to ask that people don't leave their rubbish outside your house and pee in your garden. People just need to have some respect and not act like a&&holes. If they behaved better the council might be more willing to facilitate 'outdoor living'.

Of course, I'm not condoning the assholes. But I disagree about the council being more willing, Dublin City Council have been like this for years and it's in stark contrast to other city councils in Ireland - I've already given one example, the difference between public amenities provided in Dun Laoghaire and the City Centre is ridiculous. Dun Laoghaire is a town which is really struggling at the moment and yet we have a more than adequate provision of bins and outdoor seating, and while we could certainly do with more public toilets at least we do have the few that are there, in the Peoples' Park and in Sandycove, as opposed to Dublin City Centre which has absolutely none.

This isn't just about young people either FFS, families trying to go out on a picnic in the city's green spaces will run into the same issues regarding a lack of bathroom facilities. In a modern capital city with several million citizens, it is simple ridiculous to leave sanitation entirely to private premises, end of story.

mattser

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm mking a more general point, that the city itself should have outdoor, public facilities rather than assuming that everyone in it either lives there or is on their way to a business premises of some kind. Most modern cities are designed like this, why does Ireland always have to be the exception when it comes to common sense public policy?



Of course, I'm not condoning the assholes. But I disagree about the council being more willing, Dublin City Council have been like this for years and it's in stark contrast to other city councils in Ireland - I've already given one example, the difference between public amenities provided in Dun Laoghaire and the City Centre is ridiculous. Dun Laoghaire is a town which is really struggling at the moment and yet we have a more than adequate provision of bins and outdoor seating, and while we could certainly do with more public toilets at least we do have the few that are there, in the Peoples' Park and in Sandycove, as opposed to Dublin City Centre which has absolutely none.

This isn't just about young people either FFS, families trying to go out on a picnic in the city's green spaces will run into the same issues regarding a lack of bathroom facilities. In a modern capital city with several million citizens, it is simple ridiculous to leave sanitation entirely to private premises, end of story.

100% agree with this part of your argument. In fairness the couple of times I've gone into a pub and asked to use the loo, I was allowed.
But you shouldn't have to beg to have a piddle.

Froshtbit

There i zero excuse for the litering you see in Dublin city at any time of the year. The area around Temple Street hospital,Dorset Street and Mountjoy Square.
There are bins, quite literally, everywhere. Tere must be one every 100 metres or so and still, rubbish is everywhere, dog-dirt, human-faeces household waste, syringes etc. It's ridiculous that people need to be encouraged to clean up after themselves with bins as convenient as they are.

At the canal, it's no different. WTF is wrong with people?

hatrickpatrick

mattser wrote: »

[/B]

100% agree with this part of your argument. In fairness the couple of times I've gone into a pub and asked to use the loo, I was allowed.
But you shouldn't have to beg to have a piddle.

Sandycove Beach, the Forty Foot and the little green, hilly area which spans the stretch from Newtownsmith as far as Sandycove Avenue are very frequently the setting for Portobello-esque outdoor drinking sessions by young folk during fine weather, and yet they never seem to get overrun by litter the way the city centre does. I was down at Sandycove the other day before heading into the canal, and when I came home in the evening there was no more than the usual amount of litter despite there having easily been several hundred people dancing and drinking in the sun for most of the day.

It's ridiculous to suggest that the difference in provision of public toilets and the abundance of regularly emptied public bins in Sandycove compared with the City Centre doesn't have at least some impact on this. Dun Laoghaire is an example of an area which has been explicitly designed for outdoor activities. The City Centre's public and green spaces are examples of areas which have explicitly not been designed for this, and that's what I object to. A modern capital city should not be an unwelcoming place for people who don't necessarily live or work immediately within its environs, or require them to unnecessarily become paying customers of (let's face it) exorbitantly expensive establishments in order to access basic sanitary facilities.

It's plain common sense, but that just seems to be completely absent from DCC.

Can anyone from other areas outside the remit of Dublin's City Council comment on whether their outdoor areas are properly provisioned for public use? Is Dun Laoghaire's foresight the exception here, or is DCC's complete lack of foresight the exception?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

L1011

dhaughton99 wrote: »

Repak would never allow a bottle return scheme, it would be messing with their agenda and profits.

“Overall, the empirical evidence and reviews considered in this report lead to the conclusion that there is no rationale or justification for introducing a deposit system in Ireland and that the costs involved would be significant, including the effects on Ireland’s existing packaging waste compliance infrastructure.”

https://www.repak.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/PMCA-Report-on-Deposit-and-Return-Scheme-in-Ireland-041217-FINAL.pdf

Repak's existence allowing retailers to skirt the requirements to take back product packaging is entirely at the gift of the State. They can easily find no reason to exist if they cause enough trouble.

That retailers are exempted from taking back unrecyclable packaging due to being Repak members is something that needs addressing as its patently ludicrous. Buy a fridge from most retailers* and its covered in styrofoam and plastic wrap that is no longer accepted in green bins.

*PowerCity are non-Repak and will take it back.

Dial Hard

Deleted User wrote:

There's no excuse for people littering and not taking their rubbish home with them.

This. If you brought it with you full then you can take it home with you empty. No excuses.

osarusan

I don't think they are going to put permanent infrastructure in place for a location that sees just a few days of that kind of activity each year.

(Perhaps they could develop other kinds of attractions in the area that would mean year-round visitors, and thus justify permanent infrastructure)

But I don't know why the council can't drop off a few bins, and maybe even portaloos, when it's obvious a boozing crowd is gathering.

That said, you'd still have some people littering and pissing around the place, because they are "mad bastards altogether."

hatrickpatrick

osarusan wrote: »

I don't think they are going to put permanent infrastructure in place for a location that sees just a few days of that kind of activity each year.

(Perhaps they could develop other kinds of attractions in the area that would mean year-round visitors, and thus justify permanent infrastructure)

But I don't know why the council can't drop off a few bins, and maybe even portaloos, when it's obvious a boozing crowd is gathering.

That said, you'd still have some people littering and pissing around the place, because they are "mad bastards altogether."

It would benefit the entire city though, I mean the canal is just one spot but the entire city is devoid of outdoor infrastructure. Why is it that we had it in the past, but we don't have it now? Dublin wasn't always this uninviting for day tourists:

Toilets: http://www.thejournal.ie/public-toilets-dublin-755462-Jan2013/

Bins: http://www.thejournal.ie/dcc-removes-public-bins-illegal-dumping-491596-Jun2012/

It's not rocket science. Remove such infrastructure, and habits and cleanliness will inevitably deteriorate. It's as simple and obvious as kicking something making it fall over. This is a failure of idiotic public policy as much as it is anything else. And again, Dublin City did it and it has resulted in problems - Dun Laoghaire did not do it and has far fewer problems. Despite both seeing huge amounts of congregation during good weather.

EDIT:

Each toilet block required staff – at one stage there were up to 400 people working as toilet attendants in the capital – and they, of course, needed to be paid. But by the 1980s, Ireland was in the grip of a recession, and Dublin City Council was looking at ways of tightening its belt. Such buildings, which had begun to attract drug users and other antisocial behaviour, were a drain on resources.

The ones in Sandycove are fully automated. Problem solved.

theyoungchap

So hatrickpatrick, you are blaming the lack of provision of toilets, bins, etc to combat public drinking which is illegal in the first place?
I was down in the 40 foot on Sunday evening, and the Gardai were there. There was a small amount of rubbish, but nothing dramatic.
What is needed in the city centre is more policing.
I bet one thing - if it cost 20c to use a public toilet on the canal, people would still p1ss in the canal because "ah sure we're great craic altogether the Irish".
In addition, there are people who walk/run/cycle/etc on the canal 360 days per year - they should not be pushed out on the 5 fine days because a crowd arrive for a p1ss up, of both types.

downtheroad

Back to the refund scheme on bottles and cans - I just found this link https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/introduce-a-deposit-refund-system-for-drinks-containers-now

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

I went to the canal last year on our one hot Saturday that we had, and I'm actually ashamed I went now with the hassle it causes. And then there's the bloody cringeworthy joe.ie articles about some mad b*stard who jumps into the canal!! What a legend!!
I do remember though that we simply took our rubbish when leaving, and although the bins were full, we easily found room in a different bin closer to whatever bar we went to next.
I'll never understand why people aren't taking their rubbish with them, I suppose this is Ireland where we have zero civic pride, but anyone in their right mind should not be attending these gatherings at this stage and the police should be shutting it down before it starts.
Littering makes me sick, but I just give up at this stage, the entire North Inner City is a cesspit because it's full of bloody animals, and anywhere near a school seems to be the same too. Ugh.

I used to drink in Brockwell Park in London when it was hot, and over there it's often in the summer, and I never saw any of this carry on. People wouldn't stand for it there. I don't know if it's some post colonial mentality we have here but the lack of respect for our surroundings is depressing.

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

I don't know if it's some post colonial mentality we have here but the lack of respect for our surroundings is depressing.

People listen to the pay for nothing brigade and expect Paul Murphy et al come and clear up their mess after them.

Chinasea

Proactive response from CoCo. Weather forecast good = increase activity , overtime, monitor, clean. Really not that difficult.

Provide more bins. Temporary ones for exceptional weather are perfectly acceptable. If you ain't going home after a 'picnic' are you saying we should bring our empties to the nite club?

Deposit refund system urgently needed.

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

Chinasea wrote: »

Proactive response from CoCo. Weather forecast good = increase activity , overtime, monitor, clean. Really not that difficult.

Provide more bins. Temporary ones for exceptional weather are perfectly acceptable. If you ain't going home after a 'picnic' are you saying we should bring our empties to the nite club?

Deposit refund system urgently needed.

Bring them to a bin. Bring them home. Jesus Christ how old are you that you expect someone to clean up your mess? What happens if you go camping somewhere remote? You just leave your rubbish there?

showpony1

I heard that last weekend the Gardaí were stopping people sitting with cans at the usual busiest spot across from the Barge pub, that is ruining the Irish culture imho.

Chinasea

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

Bring them to a bin. Bring them home. Jesus Christ how old are you that you expect someone to clean up your mess? What happens if you go camping somewhere remote? You just leave your rubbish there?

No need for the aggressive response.

We need more bins.

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

Chinasea wrote: »

No need for the aggressive response.

We need more bins.

We need people who clean up after themselves with an ounce of civic pride. Littering leaves me fuming, I'm sorry for directing my ire at your post!

tricky D

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

the entire North Inner City is a cesspit because it's full of bloody animals,

Mod note: No more of this kind of ranting as per charter. Next time sanctions will be used.
Do not respond to this on thread.