The mess on the Grand Canal

Teyla Emmagan

Chinasea wrote:

We need more bins.

The City Council are removing bins throughout the city because of householders filling them up with domestic rubbish. Literally people who won't bother paying for a waste collection facility and instead leave the house every day with a plastic bag full of rubbish which they then try and stuff into the nearest public bin. Every householder IMO should have to prove that they have signed up to and use a refuse collection facility. What is wrong with people that they have a problem with paying for their waste to be removed!?! Maybe if we implemented that first we would be able to bring back bins around our city.

kildare lad

I read on an earlier post about " we need more bins" theres plenty of bins around, people are just too bloody lazy to walk to one, i went into insomnia yesterday to get a hot chocolate and have a read of the paper. Theres a spar right beside it and all the teenagers from school go there on their break to get rolls etc.. So as i was going into insomnia there was 10 to 15 teenagers outside eating their rolls. After i finished my drink and had a read of the paper. I went outside and all the teens had went back to school. they left all their rubbish on the ground. Im not lying when i say theres literally a bin 10 feet away from where they stood.

And so what if theres no bins around if you go to the park or canal, can people not put their rubbish in a bag and bring it home or is it to inconvenient for them. Maybe they should start showing kids in school, videos of all the whales and dolphins that are dying in our oceans, because of plastic bags. The whales end up eating the bags because they confuse the swollen plastic bags with squid. Its sickening how people are so lazy and ignorant when it comes to cleaning up after themselves.

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

Teenagers are awful for it in Dublin. I used to live on Marino Crescent and it's absolutely filthy with rubbish on the park side, due to teenagers going around there at lunch time from school. It would take a lot to change the mindset of Irish people to not rubbish our cities and countryside, a mammoth change culturally, I wouldn't even know how we'd begin.

hatrickpatrick

kildare lad wrote: »

And so what if theres no bins around if you go to the park or canal, can people not put their rubbish in a bag and bring it home or is it to inconvenient for them.

I keep asking this and nobody's actually addressed it - if you live in a suburb which is a 20-30 minute train or bus journey out of the city, and your plan for the day is to have some beers by the canal in the afternoon/evening and then walk five minutes around the corner to Coppers, Whelans, Diceys or one of the many other local establishments, would you suggest that these people should journey all the way home to dispose of their rubbish and then journey all the way back into town, for no reason other than that the city is not properly fitted out for use by "tourists" (meaning anyone who is visiting the city centre but doesn't actually live there)?

Ethically, sure, you probably have a point, but the issue is that it's ridiculous for a city to be so uninviting towards visitors, that you can't dispose of waste or take a f*cking piss without either leaving the city or entering a private business premises. It means that fundamentally the city is unwelcoming to visitors. Is this a good thing for the capital city of a country which prides tourism as one of its important economic activities?

In all honesty, that's really what this whole issue is about. Most modern cities are designed with infrastructure so that people who don't live in the city can still use and enjoy it. This should not be left up to the private sector (AKA, businesses allowing non-customers to use their bathrooms and bins out of the goodness of their heart) to provide - that's literally one of the main purposes of having a local government. The failure of Dublin City Council to provide basic amenities so that the city can be used and enjoyed without the involvement of private business is ideologically and pragmatically moronic, which is something that needs to be addressed - canal sessions or no canal sessions.

EDIT: To give a personal example here, I'm currently brewing my own beer so it's in my interest to collect empty beer bottles and save a bit of cash on the next brew. The previous weekend when there was a canal sesh, I went out to a club on Harcourt Street immediately after the canal, and I live in Dun Laoghaire. So I collected my bottles into a bag and hid the bag in a shrubbery beside a building on Stephen's Green, then collected it later on in the night on my way to the Nitelink bus.

Are you seriously suggesting that everyone in the city should do this if they don't live in the actual city and are staying out for the entire day and night, including visiting business premises where they wouldn't be allowed to bring bottles inside? Or are you suggesting that the lifestyle of leaving one's home early in the day and not returning home until late at night, after socialising in several different places and business establishments, should simply be abandoned by people who enjoy it, because the city can't handle the fact that people who do this need somewhere to take a piss and recycle a couple of cans?

_Dara_

Howth at the end of a warm day is absolutely foul too.

fatknacker

I'd imagine if there were bins and toilets provided then they'd get used. Most people don't want to act like animals.

theyoungchap

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I keep asking this and nobody's actually addressed it - if you live in a suburb which is a 20-30 minute train or bus journey out of the city, and your plan for the day is to have some beers by the canal in the afternoon/evening and then walk five minutes around the corner to Coppers, Whelans, Diceys or one of the many other local establishments, would you suggest that these people should journey all the way home to dispose of their rubbish and then journey all the way back into town, for no reason other than that the city is not properly fitted out for use by "tourists" (meaning anyone who is visiting the city centre but doesn't actually live there)?

Ethically, sure, you probably have a point, but the issue is that it's ridiculous for a city to be so uninviting towards visitors, that you can't dispose of waste or take a f*cking piss without either leaving the city or entering a private business premises. It means that fundamentally the city is unwelcoming to visitors. Is this a good thing for the capital city of a country which prides tourism as one of its important economic activities?

In all honesty, that's really what this whole issue is about. Most modern cities are designed with infrastructure so that people who don't live in the city can still use and enjoy it. This should not be left up to the private sector (AKA, businesses allowing non-customers to use their bathrooms and bins out of the goodness of their heart) to provide - that's literally one of the main purposes of having a local government. The failure of Dublin City Council to provide basic amenities so that the city can be used and enjoyed without the involvement of private business is ideologically and pragmatically moronic, which is something that needs to be addressed - canal sessions or no canal sessions.

If there were public toilets put on the canal, they would probably have homeless people sleeping in them. Not necessarily the solution. The solution is to ban this illegal activity and let people go drink in a pub, beer garden, etc like they do for the other 360 days of the year. If they don't want to drink in a pub, go drink in their back garden and p1ss wherever they want and leave rubbish on the grass there.

fatknacker

_Dara_ wrote: »

Howth at the end of a warm day is absolutely foul too.

Well now there are loads of bins along the harbour in Howth. I retract my last post about animals :pac:

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I keep asking this and nobody's actually addressed it - if you live in a suburb which is a 20-30 minute train or bus journey out of the city, and your plan for the day is to have some beers by the canal in the afternoon/evening and then walk five minutes around the corner to Coppers, Whelans, Diceys or one of the many other local establishments

Well first of all, as far as I know it's illegal to drink in public. Secondly, as I stated earlier, I went last year to this canal thing, and took my rubbish with me until I found a bin on the street that I could use. You'll find one somewhere nearby.
I don't want to live in a police state, and a few cans in the park is fine, but why should DCC be expected to accommodate illegal drinking gatherings of this size? It's gotten out of hand. They are not the problem here, the people throwing rubbish around because they want to go to Diceys are the problem.

_Dara_

Remember that video that came out during the Euros in 2016 of the lads going around picking up their cans whilst singing "Clean up for the boys in green"?

I remember thinking "Yeah, half of you wouldn't do that at home!".

Question for people, has drinking outside the Barge on a hot day always been a thing? Or has it become much more popular in recent years?

fatknacker

theyoungchap wrote: »

If there were public toilets put on the canal, they would probably have homeless people sleeping in them. Not necessarily the solution. The solution is to ban this illegal activity and let people go drink in a pub, beer garden, etc like they do for the other 360 days of the year. If they don't want to drink in a pub, go drink in their back garden and p1ss wherever they want and leave rubbish on the grass there.

Yeah that's cool. Except pubs are already packed and pints cost €5/6. Same or more for a crappy glass of wine.

Most people don't have back gardens to go to.

I would be delighted to see a toilet that is staffed by someone and would easily pay a euro to use it. It's far cheaper than a pub, still.

hatrickpatrick

theyoungchap wrote: »

If there were public toilets put on the canal, they would probably have homeless people sleeping in them. Not necessarily the solution.

*facepalm*

So in other words, because the city can't solve its moronic shortage of social housing, the knock on effect is that it can't have public facilities either. Wonderful.

Why doesn't this happen in Sandycove and Dun Laoghaire, which as I've repeatedly pointed out have at least two (and I think possibly three) public toilets which are regularly used by everybody locally on sunny days, and are in no way unpleasant to use? There's one in Sandycove, several in the Peoples' Park and one on Dun Laoghaire pier - the pier one I'm not 100% sure if it's currently open to use, but it certainly used to be when I was younger. None of them have any issues whatsoever with junkies or homeless people, despite Dun Laoghaire's reputation as a methadone hotspot.

The solution is to ban this illegal activity and let people go drink in a pub, beer garden, etc like they do for the other 360 days of the year. If they don't want to drink in a pub, go drink in their back garden and p1ss wherever they want and leave rubbish on the grass there.

Firstly, there's absolutely no reason it should be illegal, this was a moronic decision by DCC and I for one am glad that it's flouted openly to the point of being unenforceable.
Secondly, as long as the price of food and drink is so exorbitant in business establishments within the city centre, there will be a demand for people to bring their own into town and have outdoor picnics.
Thirdly, and most importantly, this issue does not just apply to people drinking alcohol. As I've said before in the thread, what is a family with children supposed to do if they decide to bring the whole family to Stephen's Green for an outdoor picnic, with food prepared at home? Currently, their only option is to use a toilet in one of the private business premises nearby - I tend to use McDonalds on Grafton Street if I'm hanging around in the city during the day despite not actually being a paying customer of any business. Do you not find this a moronic solution? Why should private businesses have to provide public facilities to non-customers, just because the city council can't provide something which every other modern country in the world provides, for the sake of convenience for tourists and visitors?

hatrickpatrick

fatknacker wrote: »

Yeah that's cool. Except pubs are already packed and pints cost €5/6. Same or more for a crappy glass of wine.

Most people don't have back gardens to go to.

I would be delighted to see a toilet that is staffed by someone and would easily pay a euro to use it. It's far cheaper than a pub, still.

It doesn't even have to be staffed, TBH. If you're ever in the Sandycove neck of the woods, have a look at the one at the bottom of Sandycove Avenue West - it's fully automated, basically when you've finished using it, it seals up for a period of 60 seconds and fills with sterilised water or something similar, so that it basically gets automatically cleaned between each use (or several uses if it's a busy day). As I've said in the thread, Sandycove beach is regularly the scene of Grand Canal - esque outdoor drinking sessions by young people, and I have literally never seen anyone wander into someone's garden to take a piss - because there's a giant public toilet literally right there, and also a free-to-use urinal around the corner from the Forty Foot.

theyoungchap

Why is it unenforceable? Gardai walk down the canal, fine people drinking in public. Simple. Have seen it happen at the 40-foot - that is why it does not happen out there.

BeerNut

_Dara_ wrote: »

has drinking outside the Barge on a hot day always been a thing? Or has it become much more popular in recent years?

I moved to the area in the summer of 1995 and it was a thing then. Dunno if that counts as "always", though it feels like it

theyoungchap

fatknacker wrote: »

Yeah that's cool. Except pubs are already packed and pints cost €5/6. Same or more for a crappy glass of wine.

Most people don't have back gardens to go to.

I would be delighted to see a toilet that is staffed by someone and would easily pay a euro to use it. It's far cheaper than a pub, still.

You might, plenty wouldn't. I can guarantee you, if it cost a euro to use a jacks on the canal the scumbags would p1ss in the canal still.
The price of drink is alright for the other 360 days of the year is it, but for the 5 days of sun the solution is to thrash the joint?

If you can't afford to drink in a pub, the solution is not to destroy our city. Sit in your front room and drink if so. If you walk down Harcourt street any day of the week, there is broken bottles, cans etc strewn there - is that alright too because "drink is too expensive"?

Pete_Cavan

Why do some people think the state should facilitate their outdoor drinking? Pubs will sell you alcoholic drinks, clean up after you, provide toilets, many even offer outdoor spaces in which to drink. I don't see the logic in paying less for only the alcoholic drinks and then expecting the state to provide everything else. This perverse sense of entitlement is the cause of many of our problems.

fatknacker

Of course none of it is alright. People should be allowed to enjoy the sunshine and not be forced indoors to have a drink and socialise. BAN EVERYTHING doesn't work.
Knackers gonna knack, but the rest of us shouldn't be punished because of a few knackers.

Bins and toilets. Not that difficult to muster up.

Hell, I'd even settle for a concealed drain that I can squat over. I've lived in Asia. I'm not fussy.

theyoungchap

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why do some people think the state should facilitate their outdoor drinking? Pubs will sell you alcoholic drinks, clean up after you, provide toilets, many even offer outdoor spaces in which to drink. I don't see the logic in paying less for only the alcoholic drinks and then expecting the state to provide everything else. This perverse sense of entitlement is the cause of many of our problems.

Maybe the government should slap 2 euro on every can/bottle of beer and in response clean up, provide toilets in public spaces, and recycle their cans/beer, just to promote this illegal activity!

You cannot say it was a "few knackers" fatknacker - that mess was created by the majority, NOT the minority.

fatknacker

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why do some people think the state should facilitate their outdoor drinking? Pubs will sell you alcoholic drinks, clean up after you, provide toilets, many even offer outdoor spaces in which to drink. I don't see the logic in paying less for only the alcoholic drinks and then expecting the state to provide everything else. This perverse sense of entitlement is the cause of many of our problems.

I said earlier, I'm happy enough to pay to use a toilet if necessary.

People seem to like to sit in large groups and drink outside when the sun is belting down. What's wrong with that.
Pubs are noisy, crowded and expensive. Ladies' toilets have 10 minute queues and are usually filthy on a busy day/night. I don't think pubs should be expected to provide toilets for everyone either. I'm sure the landlords would agree.

fatknacker

theyoungchap wrote: »

You cannot say it was a "few knackers" fatknacker - that mess was created by the majority, NOT the minority.

No you're saying people will act like knackers regardless of a few bins and toilets being provided.
I'm saying yes also, but they would be in the minority. Skangers exist regardless. Others will use bins and toilets if they're there. If they're not, then...

theyoungchap

fatknacker wrote: »

No you're saying people will act like knackers regardless of a few bins and toilets being provided.
I'm saying yes also, but they would be in the minority. Skangers exist regardless. Others will use bins and toilets if they're there. If they're not, then...

I did not suggest that at all. People will use bins, yes. Yes, people will use toilets. But I bet you anything, that if 20c was asked for, people would still p1ss in the canal, and a bigger majority than you seem to think.

If you read back to my first post on this, it was largely saying we need a deposit scheme which would eradicate 75-80% of this mess in an instant, and it might make people think a little bit about the rest of their rubbish.

But sure Irish people love to blame the cause, rather than fix it themselves and show some civic pride.

Pete_Cavan

fatknacker wrote: »

I said earlier, I'm happy enough to pay to use a toilet if necessary.

People seem to like to sit in large groups and drink outside when the sun is belting down. What's wrong with that.
Pubs are noisy, crowded and expensive. Ladies' toilets have 10 minute queues and are usually filthy on a busy day/night. I don't think pubs should be expected to provide toilets for everyone either. I'm sure the landlords would agree.

What's wrong with people drinking outside in large groups is the state they leave the place in, I thought that was well established! Seems ironic that you don't like pubs as they are crowded but will sit in a large group elsewhere, pubs are expensive but you willing to pay separately for some of what they provide (alcohol, toilets), not willing to contribute towards the space provided or the clean up? If public toilets were provided, they would probably have longer queues than toilets in pubs (serving, as they do, the general public and not just pub customers). It all boils down to "I should be allowed do whatever I want and others should facilitate me in this" (nevermind them pubs specifically set up to allow me to do these very things, I will find reasons why they aren't good enough).

fatknacker

theyoungchap wrote: »

I did not suggest that at all. People will use bins, yes. Yes, people will use toilets. But I bet you anything, that if 20c was asked for, people would still p1ss in the canal, and a bigger majority than you seem to think.

If you read back to my first post on this, it was largely saying we need a deposit scheme which would eradicate 75-80% of this mess in an instant, and it might make people think a little bit about the rest of their rubbish.

But sure Irish people love to blame the cause, rather than fix it themselves and show some civic pride.

I don't disagree with the bottle collecting scheme. But that is again putting it into the hands of people who will collect the bottles and it encourages laziness of others who will expect someone else to clean up after them...if they won't pay 20c for a toilet, they won't carry their bottles to a bottle bank either.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What's wrong with people drinking outside in large groups is the state they leave the place in, I thought that was well established! Seems ironic that you don't like pubs as they are crowded but will sit in a large group elsewhere, pubs are expensive but you willing to pay separately for some of what they provide (alcohol, toilets), not willing to contribute towards the space provided or the clean up? If public toilets were provided, they would probably have longer queues than toilets in pubs (serving, as they do, the general public and not just pub customers). It all boils down to "I should be allowed do whatever I want and others should facilitate me in this" (nevermind them pubs specifically set up to allow me to do these very things, I will find reasons why they aren't good enough).

Difference between a crowded pub and being with people outside on the grass where you can sit, relax and enjoy the sun. I happen to like both. I can afford both. But on a sunny day I'd prefer to not be inside in a busy and noisy pub and queue for ages to get drinks or use the toilet or standing outside jostling for space to put my pint down somewhere when I can just find somewhere to sit and enjoy a few cans / bottle of wine for a fraction of the price.

Who have I asked to facilitate me to do this? I live in the city. I like a clean and tidy places too. I pay to live here. Thousands come to the city to socialise on a sunny day. How is a couple of bins and toilets that we can all use going to affect pockets.

Again, as a woman I'd gladly pay from mine to use a toilet. I hate to have to go to pubs and ask permission to use theirs like I'm a child when I'm not a patron but I have no other choice. And this is regardless if I'm out drinking or not.

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fatknacker

You know, if anyone is looking to make a few bob, they could cycle around the city on a sunny day with a portaloo trailing behind them. They'd make a killing!

Or get a fleet. Rival Deliveroo with Deliverloo!

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theyoungchap

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I would love to see figures to back the claim that it cost 3x what it used to cost. That is totally untrue, and while you are at it compare the recycling percentage before and after privatisation.

If it was the way things were, we'd have 3x as many staff in the waste collection, collecting bins 10-3 (an hour to get out, an hour to get back to the depot before going home at 4), no collections bank holiday Monday's, etc, etc. It is not and was not more efficient.

I agree with your point re unscrupulous collectors. But anyway, that's another debate altogether.

The similarities between that and this are the same though - Irish people are filthy and don't want to pay for anything.

hatrickpatrick

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why do some people think the state should facilitate their outdoor drinking? Pubs will sell you alcoholic drinks, clean up after you, provide toilets, many even offer outdoor spaces in which to drink. I don't see the logic in paying less for only the alcoholic drinks and then expecting the state to provide everything else. This perverse sense of entitlement is the cause of many of our problems.

Why do people insist that the provision of sanitary facilities in public is just about drinking? See my example about family picnics - exactly the same issue is encountered if someone brings their kids out to Stephen's Green for the day, there's nowhere to take them to go to the jacks other than private establishments.

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