The mess on the Grand Canal

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

Teenagers are awful for it in Dublin. I used to live on Marino Crescent and it's absolutely filthy with rubbish on the park side, due to teenagers going around there at lunch time from school. It would take a lot to change the mindset of Irish people to not rubbish our cities and countryside, a mammoth change culturally, I wouldn't even know how we'd begin.

Start by banning students from leaving school grounds. Reintroduce permission to leave on the understanding that it’ll be revoked if further littering occurs.

Pete_Cavan

fatknacker wrote: »

Difference between a crowded pub and being with people outside on the grass where you can sit, relax and enjoy the sun. I happen to like both. I can afford both. But on a sunny day I'd prefer to not be inside in a busy and noisy pub and queue for ages to get drinks or use the toilet or standing outside jostling for space to put my pint down somewhere when I can just find somewhere to sit and enjoy a few cans / bottle of wine for a fraction of the price.

Who have I asked to facilitate me to do this? I live in the city. I like a clean and tidy places too. I pay to live here. Thousands come to the city to socialise on a sunny day. How is a couple of bins and toilets that we can all use going to affect pockets.

But it's not just a couple of bins and toilets is it? The bin and toilet capacity would have to be very large and even then, there will still be plenty of people who will leave their rubbish to blow around, pissing in hedges and leaving the toilets a disgrace for the next person to use and some poor soul to clean up. Same as people who refuse to clean up after their dogs despite bins being provided.

And then there are the law abiding citizens, why should they have to compete for space with large numbers of illegal drinkers? Providing bins and toilets will only attract more and more people to these spots, probably resulting in them being busier than the pubs you complain about and creating more problems. Maybe if people would actually go to pubs on days like that, more outdoor capacity would be provided.

hatrickpatrick

Deleted User wrote: »

Start by banning students from leaving school grounds. Reintroduce permission to leave on the understanding that it’ll be revoked if further littering occurs.

And have them under mandatory house arrest at the weekends, I suppose. :rolleyes:

The solution to genuine gratuitous littering is to fine those responsible and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law if they refuse to clean up. But in my view, it should be just as much a defense in court that one tidied up as best one could in the absence of any empty bins in the locality, as it is to state that one only boarded a train without a ticket because the ticket machine was out of order, there was nobody in the office, and people have to live their lives regardless. That would not only deal with the genuine litterbugs, but it would also incentivise the councils to provide the necessary facilities for outdoor living.

It certainly seems to have worked on Iarnrod Eireann. Ever since that case a few years ago when somebody got a fine overturned in court by pointing out that all the machines were out of order and the station was unmanned, with photographic evidence, I've certainly noticed (anecdotally of course) that when one of the machines breaks down it tends to be fixed within a day or so. Previous to this, there were times in Sandycove when the machines would be out of order for weeks, and coupled with the fact that the station is unmanned at least half the time, fare evasion was rampant. Sending the message that people who make no effort to clean up when they have the opportunity to do so, but that they must be provided with that opportunity, is good for everyone.

hatrickpatrick

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

But it's not just a couple of bins and toilets is it? The bin and toilet capacity would have to be very large and even then, there will still be plenty of people who will leave their rubbish to blow around, pissing in hedges and leaving the toilets a disgrace for the next person to use and some poor soul to clean up. Same as people who refuse to clean up after their dogs despite bins being provided.

It wouldn't have to be that large. Sandycove beach seems to do alright with a bunch of those massive blue steel barrels and two nearby public toilets. The only trouble I've ever heard of down there are idiots fighting (which ironically never seems to happen at the canal sessions) - I live locally and I've honestly never seen an abundance of litter or pissing in the street in the area. Put two and two together. One of the areas is provisioned for outdoor activities, one is not. The former area doesn't get overrun with mess, the latter does. It isn't rocket science.

And then there are the law abiding citizens, why should they have to compete for space with large numbers of illegal drinkers? Providing bins and toilets will only attract more and more people to these spots, probably resulting in them being busier than the pubs you complain about and creating more problems. Maybe if people would actually go to pubs on days like that, more outdoor capacity would be provided.

Because public drinking shouldn't be illegal, being drunk and disorderly in public should be. Having a beer is no less moral than having a picnic. Why should it be? And I can guarantee you that there is literally nothing which will entice young and broke folks to go to the pub en masse short of more or less halving the average price of a pint. And nor should it - by the European average, people in Dublin are getting utterly fleeced.

Pete_Cavan

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why do people insist that the provision of sanitary facilities in public is just about drinking? See my example about family picnics - exactly the same issue is encountered if someone brings their kids out to Stephen's Green for the day, there's nowhere to take them to go to the jacks other than private establishments.

Nobody is insisting public toilets is about drinking. The sad truth is that public toilets are regularly abused, attract drug use and anti social behaviour and are often left in a disgusting state. As with most things, there is a small number of people who have a huge negative impact on the majority.

hatrickpatrick

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Nobody is insisting public toilets is about drinking. The sad truth is that public toilets are regularly abused, attract drug use and anti social behaviour and are often left in a disgusting state. As with most things, there is a small number of people who have a huge negative impact on the majority.

And the correct response is to deal with those issues, not throw the baby out with the bathwater like we do with every. single. issue. in Ireland whenever something goes wrong.

I've already explained how the ones in Sandycove are self-cleaning. If vandalism is an issue, set up CCTV cameras near them and prosecute the f*ckers responsible. It's not difficult. Removing every good or useful thing in the world because there are gobsh!tes in the world as well would leave the world a barren wasteland FFS. It's not a solution and should never be considered one.

EDIT: This is not the toilet in Sandycove, but one in America which I suspect uses the same or a very similar mechanism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp1ZcAWhmFY

Anita Blow

HatrickPatrick has hit the nail on the head repeatedly here. The idea that we should be banning or discouraging people from enjoying public spaces in Dublin is farcical. Absolutely nobody condones littering, but the vast majority of these people drinking on the canals are capable of binning their litter the other 360 days of the year and would absolutely do so of bins were made available. I was on the canal 2 weeks ago and the few standard bins in the area were overflowing showing that people did try and bin their rubbish first.

Look at Trinity. On a sunny day they bring out a few portaloos and 3 large bins and the cricket pitch is left completely clean at the end of the day.
Dublin City Council would be saving money on overtime cleaning costs if they would simply provide bins and portaloos in the area on a sunny day.

TheRiverman

I live in rural Ireland and rubbish is frequently dumped in hedges,drains etc along the roadsides.General household,beer cans,****ty nappies etc.I even saw lawn cuttings dumped at the entrance to bogland,someone actually drove a distance with a car and trailer and then unloaded it about two metres off the edge of the road at the entrance to the bog.In this area 99.9%of the population are Irish,so I don't think foreigners can be blamed for the dumping.

Pete_Cavan

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It wouldn't have to be that large. Sandycove beach seems to do alright with a bunch of those massive blue steel barrels and two nearby public toilets. The only trouble I've ever heard of down there are idiots fighting (which ironically never seems to happen at the canal sessions) - I live locally and I've honestly never seen an abundance of litter or pissing in the street in the area. Put two and two together. One of the areas is provisioned for outdoor activities, one is not. The former area doesn't get overrun with mess, the latter does. It isn't rocket science.

I wish it was that easy but experience suggests otherwise. There are numerous posts in this thread about people ignoring bins and throwing rubbish away. It's not rocket science, more like social reengineering.

Drinking people create a lot of waste (generally 6 cans/bottles per person plus packaging), bins fill up quickly and when they do, rubbish goes on the ground. Self-cleaning toilets are slow, if there are large numbers of drinking people and queues, I am sure many will take other options. Both bins and public toilets are great but not with large numbers of drinkers.

We have many beautiful public places, I don't see why they should be open to drinking any the issues that come with it (and like it or not but experience shows issues do come). Particularly when we also have an abundance of places specifically set up to cater for drinking (not to mention peoples own place of residence)! People equating no drinking in public with banning or discouraging people from enjoying public spaces is just wrong.

Anita Blow

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Drinking people create a lot of waste (generally 6 cans/bottles per person plus packaging), bins fill up quickly and when they do, rubbish goes on the ground. Self-cleaning toilets are slow, if there are large numbers of drinking people and queues, I am sure many will take other options. Both bins and public toilets are great but not with large numbers of drinkers.

Do what plenty of other European cities do and set up mobile urinals. You can have up to 6 urinals from on station and it's used to great success in public spaces in cities like Amsterdam. No attempt has even been made by Dublin city council to facilitate this so it's a bit early to say there's no other option when evidence from other European cities tells us otherwise.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We have many beautiful public places, I don't see why they should be open to drinking any the issues that come with it (and like it or not but experience shows issues do come). Particularly when we also have an abundance of places specifically set up to cater for drinking (not to mention peoples own place of residence)! People equating no drinking in public with banning or discouraging people from enjoying public spaces is just wrong.

So Ireland should be an exception in Western countries where people can either drink at home or in an overpriced pub and nowhere else?
People drink in Hyde park in London, in Millenium Park in Chicago, the Waterfront in Toronto and the list goes on. Their councils anticipate this and provide suitable amenities (toileting, bins) with no issue.

The problem by the canals these past couple of weeks is not that there has been an abundance of toilets which go unused, or tons of big bins which were left empty. The canals had neither and while littering is atrocious it is equally atrocious that the council made no subsequent attempts to minimise it.

mattser

Anita Blow wrote: »

Do what plenty of other European cities do and set up mobile urinals. You can have up to 6 urinals from on station and it's used to great success in public spaces in cities like Amsterdam. No attempt has even been made by Dublin city council to facilitate this so it's a bit early to say there's no other option when evidence from other European cities tells us otherwise.


So Ireland should be an exception in Western countries where people can either drink at home or in an overpriced pub and nowhere else?
People drink in Hyde park in London, in Millenium Park in Chicago, the Waterfront in Toronto and the list goes on. Their councils anticipate this and provide suitable amenities (toileting, bins) with no issue.

The problem by the canals these past couple of weeks is not that there has been an abundance of toilets which go unused, or tons of big bins which were left empty. The canals had neither and while littering is atrocious it is equally atrocious that the council made no subsequent attempts to minimise it.

No. I see bins outside chippers every where I go, and these scuts religiously throw the litter on the ground. It's nothing else but defiance, and nothing short of coming down hard with fines is going to change anything. It's a brat mentality, and alcohol makes it worse.

Anita Blow

mattser wrote: »

No. I see bins outside chippers every where I go, and these scuts religiously throw the litter on the ground. It's nothing else but defiance, and nothing short of coming down hard with fines is going to change anything. It's a brat mentality, and alcohol makes it worse.

Who are you talking about? The vast majority of people out drinking along the canal on a sunny day are normal people out after work who aren't "scuts" and would never litter if facilities were available. I was at the canal 2 weeks ago. There were no bins apart from the 3 fixed ones which were overflowing and on my walk up Camden st toward town the bins along there were overflowing too.
How far are people expected to carry their rubbish before Dublin City Council carries some responsibility to provide facilities to bin it?

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

Anita Blow wrote: »

Who are you talking about? The vast majority of people out drinking along the canal on a sunny day are normal people out after work who aren't "scuts" and would never litter if facilities were available. I was at the canal 2 weeks ago. There were no bins apart from the 3 fixed ones which were overflowing and on my walk up Camden st toward town the bins along there were overflowing too.
How far are people expected to carry their rubbish before Dublin City Council carries some responsibility to provide facilities to bin it?

I can't believe you're trying to excuse people leaving rubbish there. There's no excuse for it, regardless of what the bloody council do or don't do.
You're right, it's not a scumbag crowd, it's more of a trendy crowd, repeat t-shirts etc. These are not the types I'd associate with littering, but they've proved me wrong.
I for one would rather go home with the rubbish than leave it lying around our fair city. Be part of the problem or part of the solution.

mattser

Anita Blow wrote: »

Who are you talking about? The vast majority of people out drinking along the canal on a sunny day are normal people out after work who aren't "scuts" and would never litter if facilities were available. I was at the canal 2 weeks ago. There were no bins apart from the 3 fixed ones which were overflowing and on my walk up Camden st toward town the bins along there were overflowing too.
How far are people expected to carry their rubbish before Dublin City Council carries some responsibility to provide facilities to bin it?

You ask who am I talking about, and then answer your own question in the same post. The "vast majority" are not the problem. They won't leave litter behind. It's the sizeable minority... the brats....who would rather throw their cheap beer cans in the canal as a sign of defiance. Bins or no bins.

Anita Blow

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

I can't believe you're trying to excuse people leaving rubbish there. There's no excuse for it, regardless of what the bloody council do or don't do.
You're right, it's not a scumbag crowd, it's more of a trendy crowd, repeat t-shirts etc. These are not the types I'd associate with littering, but they've proved me wrong.
I for one would rather go home with the rubbish than leave it lying around our fair city. Be part of the problem or part of the solution.

Here's where in both of my previous posts I specifically said I was not excusing littering:

Anita Blow wrote: »

Absolutely nobody condones littering

Anita Blow wrote: »

littering is atrocious it is equally atrocious that the council made no subsequent attempts to minimise it.

Feigning outrage and calling people scumbags but not coming up with practical solutions does nothing to help the situation.
People should bring their litter home, absolutely. But the reality is when city planners and the council have made it as difficult as possible to dump your rubbish and fail to prepare for this predictable event every year then people will end up leaving their rubbish behind.

People here don't even seem to want to attempt to manage the situation. All that has been suggested by some is to ban gatherings in natural outdoor amenities and that people should only socialise in pubs or at home. That is a critically depressing idea. All myself and some others have suggested is that
A) Portable toilets be provided as is done in other capital cities and as is done in Trinity College which is left with no litter issues on sunny days
Dumpster bins along the canals on these days to make it as easy as possible for people to bin their rubbish.
C) A deposit scheme to encourage others to recycle empty cans/bottles

All of these are done in other countries and people are able to socialise in their city's outdoors on nice days and yet here some meet these suggestions with derision.

joeysoap

Ridiculous I know, but if toilets were provided, cleaned regularly and kept clean. And a charge of say 40c for upkeep. And we had a bottle levy of say 20c a bottle ( and cans).

And you could pay for the visit with empty’s. Two birds with one stone.

I know - ridiculous idea.


The earlier posts regarding the bin collections were not taking into account the EU rules on dumping now. Ok the bin companies make money (no point otherwise) but they are subject to fairly hefty charges for landfill. Not saying the local authorities would not be as efficient but it was different times.

Ban drinking in unlicensed areas. I’m not a Dub, but it pains me to see the rubbish left by the canal. As I said in an earlier post, Gardai and security men were on duty at the most affected area. I think it’s Portabello, but am unfamiliar with street names. Instead of the crowd gathering in one area, they were much more spread out.

Pete_Cavan

https://goo.gl/images/ojMZXR

Three bins in the photo and Street View shows two further council bins within 25m. Five bins seems adequate for such a small area yet the rubbish far exceeds capacity. The volume of rubbish created by those drinking sessions is just unreasonable. And piling it up beside the bin is not a mitigating factor, someone has to pick up the beer soaked mess and items can get blown around. I don't see why the council should have to cater for this level of rubbish on the few sunny days we have and with only a few days notice.

https://goo.gl/images/7uDGdd

How many toilets are needed to cater for this number of people? And what sort of state would they be in after? Accommodating the drinking is only endorsing it and will attract even bigger crowds, requiring more toilets and more bins. Then there is the footpaths and cycle way blocked, people who would otherwise use the space being put off by the large number of people drinking. But apparently the pubs are too crowded and queues for toilets too long!

What good actually comes from this? Some people save a few quid by not paying pub prices for beer while the council picks up the rest of the cost? Hardly seems fair.

theyoungchap

Anita Blow wrote: »

Who are you talking about? The vast majority of people out drinking along the canal on a sunny day are normal people out after work who aren't "scuts" and would never litter if facilities were available. I was at the canal 2 weeks ago. There were no bins apart from the 3 fixed ones which were overflowing and on my walk up Camden st toward town the bins along there were overflowing too.
How far are people expected to carry their rubbish before Dublin City Council carries some responsibility to provide facilities to bin it?

If you visit a national park in Australia, you are told a few house rules on entry, and number 1 being "if you bring it in to the park, you bring it home with you". The second one being "use the toilets only as your bathroom". We were told these entering several national parks, I suspect it is the same for all of them and these rules were adhered to be EVERYBODY.

But Aussies feel a sense of civic pride which Irish people don't.

The other big difference is how we drink. Irish people want a roaring p1ss up on the canal, in other countries they can have a drink or two and go home with their rubbish with them. The drinking which happens on the canal turns a generally family-friendly amenity into a chaotic outdoor pub which is not family friendly. And an unfriendly dinner for swans, ducks, pigeon's, rats, etc because we just leave our mess there.

And people need to stop saying it is the "minority" - it is not the minority. No minority could leave a mess on that scale behind, so stop trying to defend them on that basis.

And lastly, if we put a skip down there, I can bet you it would attract rubbish bags, tv's, mattresses from a 1-mile radius. Because we are a nation of scumbags who wouldn't pay 15 euro to dump a car load of stuff in Ringsend.

This nonsense has to end.

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

^^^
The Aussie's don't go home after one or two drinks, they're almost as bad as us. If you tried this sort of carry on in Nanny State Australia, it'd be broken up in no time and lots of fines would be issued. The police and laws I found to be quite strict down there.
Anyway...
If there were skips and if it was felt that they were being accommodated, bigger crowds would show up. We can't be accommodating en masse knacker drinking. If you want to have a few cans in the sun, find somewhere quieter and put your rubbish in a bin afterwards.

theyoungchap

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

^^^
The Aussie's don't go home after one or two drinks, they're almost as bad as us. If you tried this sort of carry on in Nanny State Australia, it'd be broken up in no time and lots of fines would be issued. The police and laws I found to be quite strict down there.
Anyway...
If there were skips and if it was felt that they were being accommodated, bigger crowds would show up. We can't be accommodating en masse knacker drinking. If you want to have a few cans in the sun, find somewhere quieter and put your rubbish in a bin afterwards.

It is true re the Aussies, but the least they do is respect their national parks. We do not have that same level of respect. Having said that, I've never seen the sort of madness that happened on the canal happening there.

hatrickpatrick

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

^^^
The Aussie's don't go home after one or two drinks, they're almost as bad as us. If you tried this sort of carry on in Nanny State Australia, it'd be broken up in no time and lots of fines would be issued. The police and laws I found to be quite strict down there.
Anyway...
If there were skips and if it was felt that they were being accommodated, bigger crowds would show up. We can't be accommodating en masse knacker drinking. If you want to have a few cans in the sun, find somewhere quieter and put your rubbish in a bin afterwards.

What's wrong with en masse drinking in public spaces, IF those spaces are left tidy afterwards? If residents don't like it, then don't live within the boundary of a capital city in a major European country, simple as. Same as when people b!tch about concerts in Croker.

hatrickpatrick

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What good actually comes from this? Some people save a few quid by not paying pub prices for beer while the council picks up the rest of the cost? Hardly seems fair.

A huge number of people have a huge amount of fun in the city that they live in. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

mattser

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What's wrong with en masse drinking in public spaces, IF those spaces are left tidy afterwards? If residents don't like it, then don't live within the boundary of a capital city in a major European country, simple as. Same as when people b!tch about concerts in Croker.

A large proportion of people around Croker ( Drumcondra, Phibsboro, etc ) are very elderly, and have lived there all their lives.
Are you suggesting they up sticks so they don't interfere with the money grabbers and filthy litter louts ?

GreeBo

Anyone who thinks that public toilets, automated or otherwise wouldn't be destroyed within a week is living in a dream land.

They would be full of needles and some mad lad would just take a **** on the floor or in the sink.

We can't have nice things here.

Interested Observer

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What's wrong with en masse drinking in public spaces

What a stupid question. It's hugely disruptive to everyone else who doesn't want to go on the piss in this public space. It basically makes the space unusable to anyone else. Either go on the piss in public or leave Dublin, genius stuff.

theyoungchap

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What's wrong with en masse drinking in public spaces, IF those spaces are left tidy afterwards? If residents don't like it, then don't live within the boundary of a capital city in a major European country, simple as. Same as when people b!tch about concerts in Croker.

So people shouldn't be entitled to buy a house in a city, beside a lovely amenity like a canal and not expect people to leave litter everywhere or urinate in their garden and the justification is "well don't buy a house in a city"?

I give up.

showpony1

Interested Observer wrote: »

What a stupid question. It's hugely disruptive to everyone else who doesn't want to go on the piss in this public space. It basically makes the space unusable to anyone else. Either go on the piss in public or leave Dublin, genius stuff.

its the irish culture

hatrickpatrick

mattser wrote: »

A large proportion of people around Croker ( Drumcondra, Phibsboro, etc ) are very elderly, and have lived there all their lives.
Are you suggesting they up sticks so they don't interfere with the money grabbers and filthy litter louts ?

I don't know what year Croker was built in, but given that it was the subject of a brutal massacre during the War of Independence, it's pretty safe to say that there was already a stadium there long before any of the current residents moved in.

It would be different if the area (or indeed Portobello) was a suburb which has been increasingly urbanised - I can absolutely sympathise with people who find themselves in that kind of situation. But if you choose to live in the city centre of a capital city, part of everyday life is that the city is a commercial and a public space as well as a private residential space.

I've already given you a personal example: I live beside a very busy park which has a loud, music-filled and carnival-esque outdoor market every Sunday. Personally I like the atmosphere, but my point is that if I didn't, it would have been fairly foolish of me to decide to live in a large town beside a huge open green space and somehow expect it not to be used for outdoor activities during decent weather.

Now of course, as I've repeatedly pointed out in this thread, that park and other nearby in my own neighbourhood has the foresight to provide about eight public toilets and an over-abundance of litter bins, so there's no problem with people wandering into my garden to take a piss. But if the park wasn't provisioned, I wouldn't call for this beautiful amenity to be closed to the public or for people to not be allowed to have a few beers in it at the weekend, I'd call for the council to provision it as an outdoor amenity, which is what it is. And if there was still a problem with littering and pissing despite the provision of such facilities, I'd be calling on the Gardai to target the specific individuals who are just antisocial assholes and choose not to avail of them.

But I wouldn't be calling for this public amenity to be closed or for certain enjoyable outdoor activities to be banned in it, because in my view that's just an absolute dick move, and an entirely unreasonable one given that the park was there long before I lived in this house, so it would be my and my family's own stupidity if we decided to live here while desiring a quiet, rural-esque life free of big crowds of people on sunny days.

hatrickpatrick

GreeBo wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that public toilets, automated or otherwise wouldn't be destroyed within a week is living in a dream land.

They would be full of needles and some mad lad would just take a **** on the floor or in the sink.

We can't have nice things here.

Why has this not happened in Dun Laoghaire? And don't give me any spiel about Dublin City being more full of scumbags than Dun Laoghaire, believe me there are plenty. What we do have here is a Garda presence which takes common sense into account - they won't hassle or break up a crowd of decent people enjoying themselves and having a few drinks unless that crowd begins to engage in the kind of antisocial behaviour you allude to, but by God if that crowd does indeed head down the path of gobsh!tery I can assure you that our local Gardai are all over them within minutes. That's the middle ground - rather than banning the activity altogether, target the troublemakers and leave everyone else to enjoy the area.

Ye should have a read of this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/8hpv5a/saw_a_teenage_girl_get_peppersrayrd_by_a_guard/

This is how our local Gardai deal with crowds on sunny days down at Sandycove beach. Everyone's free to hang out, listen to some music as long as it isn't too loud, and have a few beers by the sea - but the minute there's even a hint of aggro, the Gardai swoop in and remove the assholes. I witnessed this incident myself and as soon as the small group of douchebags involved had been "vanned", everyone else was able to get on with their session and continue having the craic. As I've said before, public bathrooms in the area and no reports of anyone taking a piss in anyone's front garden.

Why can't the city centre just do the same? Again, I don't believe for a second in this stereotype that the city centre is more prone to scumbaggery than a place like Dun Laoghaire, it would seem that we simply have a countyr council and local Garda presence which realises that there are options in between the extremes of "ban it altogether" and "stand idly by and do absolutely nothing about it when there's trouble".