Frustrated trying to get an alarm

KoolKid

Up selling is fine. trying to sell a customer something they don't want is not.
If a customer wants an un-monitored alarm that's fine. EN50131-1 standards allow for this & its also accepted by insurance companies.
If a customer wants an alarm with apps & doesn't want to be tied to a subscription service for the life of that system whats wrong with that?
The majority of manufacturers provide this service free of charge , so its hardly leaving you the installer of pocket. We have a mark up on the comms equipment don't we?

bilbot79

KoolKid wrote: »

You are only getting part of the story there as well I'm afraid.
In the event of a power cut or network down Siemens /Vanderbilt can notify you in less than a minute if you want.
GSD can notify you in 5 minutes.
GSD will also notify you instantly if network connection is lost after an alarm event or even entry time started.
On some of the paid options network fails are only notified after 5 hours 😲
Keep shopping around would be my advice.

Who cares? Power cuts hardly ever happen. This would be a totally irrational factor in the purchase. Why can't they just sell an unmonitored alarm that makes loud noises when someone breaks into your house?

KoolKid

bilbot79 wrote: »

Who cares? Power cuts hardly ever happen. This would be a totally irrational factor in the purchase. Why can't they just sell an unmonitored alarm that makes loud noises when someone breaks into your house?

Most can & will.

kub

bilbot79 wrote: »

Who cares? Power cuts hardly ever happen. This would be a totally irrational factor in the purchase. Why can't they just sell an unmonitored alarm that makes loud noises when someone breaks into your house?

How can you say that power cuts hardly ever happen? Just because that may be the case where you live, it does not mean it is the same nationwide. That is one of the reasons that ESB Networks have an App to show where there are power cuts.

hatchman

kub wrote:

How can you say that power cuts hardly ever happen? Just because that may be the case where you live, it does not mean it is the same nationwide. That is one of the reasons that ESB Networks have an App to show where there are power cuts.

So a clever criminal could use the app to target areas where the power is out?

kub

hatchman wrote:

So a clever criminal could use the app to target areas where the power is out?

He would probably need a helicopter to get around that quick

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

How can you say that power cuts hardly ever happen? Just because that may be the case where you live, it does not mean it is the same nationwide. That is one of the reasons that ESB Networks have an App to show where there are power cuts.

The don't really happen on a domestic application in conjunction with a break in.
They will usually just attack the panel after gaining entry.By that stage all your alerts have gone out, including smash & grab.( if you have a good system that does that). When you get that much information its then about getting the property attended to as quick as possible.
In 30 years I have only once seen the power cut during a break in at a domestic property. And even then it was because they were so dumb they pulled the fuse board off the wall thinking it was the alarm panel.:)

kub

KoolKid wrote:

The don't really happen on a domestic application in conjunction with a break in. They will usually just attack the panel after gaining entry.By that stage all your alerts have gone out, including smash & grab.( if you have a good system that does that). When you get that much information its then about getting the property attended to as quick as possible. In 30 years I have only once seen the power cut during a break in at a domestic property. And even then it was because they were so dumb they pulled the fuse board off the wall thinking it was the alarm panel.

Still I wouldn't be relying on a customers router to get a signal out.
Also it depends on what panel you have and where it is positioned.

Drifter50

Agreed, in 30 years I have rarely come across a residential break in where any real thought has gone in to the entry beyond smash grab and run

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

Still I wouldn't be relying on a customers router to get a signal out.
Also it depends on what panel you have and where it is positioned.

I think you have missed the whole point of the debate in favour of trying to sell paid for monitoring.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

I think you have missed the whole point of the debate in favour of trying to sell paid for monitoring.

Well with your earlier comment about Garda response to intruder alarm activations you are not doing the profession you are in many favours.

What you said is not true and I hope you actually know that.

Also you do not get the reality of actually running and owning a business, if you did you would have a better grasp on it you would be singing a different tune completly.

degsie

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

Well with your earlier comment about Garda response to intruder alarm activations you are not doing the profession you are in many favours.

No, I'm doing the the customer a favor by being honest as opposed to just trying to sell them ongoing commitments.
Garda response is at their discretion.I have plenty of Guards as customers who will tell you the same.

kub wrote: »

Also you do not get the reality of actually running and owning a business, if you did you would have a better grasp on it you would be singing a different tune completly.

I do run a company. As for what I own or have shares or interests in, you are not aware of my status there so please refrain from commenting.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

I do run a company. As for what I own or have shares or interests in, you are not aware of my status there so please refrain from commenting.

Well a look at the CRO website lists the directors of where you work and officially you are not listed there.
So wish away.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

No, I'm doing the the customer a favor by being honest as opposed to just trying to sell them ongoing commitments. Garda response is at their discretion.I have plenty of Guards as customers who will tell you the same.

A customer is someone who pays you for your service's.
Yours must not be much good if you have issues getting Garda response.

I have plenty of Gardai as customers and do plenty of work for them and they say otherwise to me.

You do recall their instance that their response was not to be discussed as per the verification criteria agreed in 2005?
So probably best for you to stop mentioning it and remove your earlier post.

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

Well a look at the CRO website lists the directors of where you work and officially you are not listed there.
So wish away.

That tells you Im not a director. I am not.
Again you do not know my interests or status connected to that (or any other company for that matter) So to suggest I don't run it correctly or don't have the same interests because I don't own it is simply wrong.

kub wrote: »

A customer is someone who pays you for your service's.
Yours must not be much good if you have issues getting Garda response.

Everyone knows Garda response to domestic alarms is not a priority & their own documentation even states a key holder must attend.

To effectively respond to a verified intruder alarm, the Garda Síochána require
that a key holder is informed and that they attend in the shortest time possible at
the premises.
1.7 Failure of a key holder to attend at a premises following a verified alarm will
result in the activation being recorded as a false alarm.

kub wrote: »

You do recall their instance that their response was not to be discussed as per the verification criteria agreed in 2005?
So probably best for you to stop mentioning it and remove your earlier post.

Do you mean this?

No Alarm Installation Company or Monitoring Centre shall, in or on any of their
stationery or advertising material, make any reference to An Garda Síochána or
infer that Garda response will result from all alarm activations.

Sounds to me thats what you are claiming.

Anyway this thread has been very informative to the OP that there are many other options available to people who don't want to be tied into payments.
If you've appeared here just to personally attack me because you disagree then work away. I won't be engaging further here.

altor

Effects wrote: »

In my own situation I will probably install a HKC alarm, do it myself and not put it on the insurance. I will probably go for the GSM monitoring so if the alarm is triggered I can quickly log in to the cctv remotely to see what's happening.

Regardless of having it on your insurance, if it is installed and working they will expect you to use it to protect your property.

Conar

altor wrote: »

Regardless of having it on your insurance, if it is installed and working they will expect you to use it to protect your property.

Are you sure about this?
I haven't seen anything that would imply this anywhere.

Effects

altor wrote: »

Regardless of having it on your insurance, if it is installed and working they will expect you to use it to protect your property.

And if I don't tell them I have an alarm they can't expect me to use it.

DavyD_83

Effects wrote: »

And if I don't tell them I have an alarm they can't expect me to use it.

I'm sure most insurance policies have a clause that states something about taking all reasonable precautions to avoid damage/theft, which could be used in cases where you leave a ladder against your wall, window open, alarm off, etc etc.
No policy will be able to include an exhaustive list of exact scenarios, but I'm sure most could be seen to imply that if you have an alarm you should use it if the insurer wanted to be difficult.

altor

Conar wrote: »

Are you sure about this?
I haven't seen anything that would imply this anywhere.

Effects wrote: »

And if I don't tell them I have an alarm they can't expect me to use it.

That is from an assessor.
It is up to the home or business owner to protect their property.
If you have a working alarm they also expect it to be used.

KoolKid

I thought this a strange one myself. So I ran it by assessors we work with and the answer was ABSOLUTELY NOT.
The reasons:
You are paying a loading for not having an alarm. The risk and policy cost is based on this element of security not being in place.
You can not be punished for not using something you are not claiming to have.
Using due care can not be an argument as the policy will specifically state you do not have an alarm.

altor

Only relaying what I was told by the assessor

Id advise anyone to check with your insurance company re this as we are getting conflicting advise from different assessors.

Effects

altor wrote: »

That is from an assessor.
It is up to the home or business owner to protect their property.
If you have a working alarm they also expect it to be used.

You're basically saying I'm better off from an insurance point of view if I just don't install an alarm on my home.

DavyD_83

Effects wrote: »

You're basically saying I'm better off from an insurance point of view if I just don't install an alarm on my home.

Why not just install, use, and declare your alarm to get the reduction in insurance cost and the added security (let's not get into debating this, Hans Gruber will get past anything) of having an alarm?

hatchman

DavyD_83 wrote:

Why not just install, use, and declare your alarm to get the reduction in insurance cost and the added security (let's not get into debating this, Hans Gruber will get past anything) of having an alarm?

Will the savings you make on your insurance pay for an alarm install and maintenance fees?

KoolKid

The savings on your home insurance will usually not even cover you for the required annual service. Not to mention the extra outs you are giving your insurance company.

DavyD_83

hatchman wrote: »

Will the savings you make on your insurance pay for an alarm install and maintenance fees?

Probably not, but I got impression from all the comments above that the scenario was where people have alarms but don't declare them to insurance. So the cost is already there, no?
Anyways, seems like op got himself sorted which is cool.
I'm out

altor

Effects wrote: »

You're basically saying I'm better off from an insurance point of view if I just don't install an alarm on my home.

For a insurance point of view you would need to ask them that.

The little discount they do offer is not worth the discount.

pilotsnipes

@Conar

This has been a very informative thread and I've just discovered that I'm walking the exact same path as you at the moment. Thanks for bringing up this issue.

I'm off to look for a new panel and installer now. Perpetual contracts and fewer features annoy me greatly too.

Cheers.

KoolKid

pilotsnipes wrote: »

I'm off to look for a new panel and installer now. Perpetual contracts and fewer features annoy me greatly too.

Cheers.

Good luck with it all. Remember shop around and get plenty of advice.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

If you have an alarm and declare it to insurance, are you covered if you're burgled but don't have the alarm on? Anyway, who pays attention to alarms going off? Are you safer not attending to an alarm?

KoolKid

At worst you may not be. At best they will use it as a bargaining tool in the event of a claim.

ctlsleh

If this helps anyone, I renewed my insurance and had an old alarm which we don’t use so I decided to remove it from the policy, I was told the Max I can insure contents for was 102K, so,to have to upgrade my alarm so that I can insure contents for more than that.........anyone bought a new alarm recently?
I’d like one that i can connect to home automation, Philips hue, phone app, maybe some video cameras etc

bk

ctlsleh wrote: »

If this helps anyone, I renewed my insurance and had an old alarm which we don’t use so I decided to remove it from the policy, I was told the Max I can insure contents for was 102K, so,to have to upgrade my alarm so that I can insure contents for more than that.........anyone bought a new alarm recently?

I'd say get quotes from other companies and also tell this company that you will be getting quotes from other companies and what is the best they can do to keep your business.

IME if you show them you are serious to move, they will normally be quick to do a deal.

Best to avoid having the alarm on your insurance. What if you forget to turn it on or it fails? It just gives them an excuse not to pay out.

ctlsleh wrote: »

I’d like one that i can connect to home automation, Philips hue, phone app, maybe some video cameras etc

There are some options, but the modern home automation stuff is still pretty immature in the Irish/UK market at the moment.

Siemens and GSD have free app control. Comfort Cytech Alarms has more home automation options.

Then there are the Yale and Honeywell DIY systems you can buy on Amazon. They have apps and with a bit of hacking can be somewhat made to work with SmartThings for some level of home automation.

In the US market there are a whole bunch of more advanced smart alarm systems coming from the likes of Google Nest, ADT SmartThings, Amazon, etc. though they haven't come to the Irish market yet.

KoolKid

Siemens VAnderbilt have some grat intergration options

https://www.spcsupportinfo.com/SPCConnectPro/spc-overview-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2/spc-integrations/home-automation-intergration/

GSD are also working on Alexa Integration.

bk

KoolKid wrote: »

GSD are also working on Alexa Integration.

If they happen to be listening here then they should work on IFTTT support first.

With IFTTT support, it can then easily work with Alexa, Google Assistant, SmartThings, Yonomi, etc.

From there doing native Alexa support is easy, while having at least something for all other platforms.

Effects

DavyD_83 wrote: »

Why not just install, use, and declare your alarm to get the reduction in insurance cost and the added securityof having an alarm?

Insurance company won't give me a reduction if I install the alarm myself, that's why.

bk

Effects wrote: »

Insurance company won't give me a reduction if I install the alarm myself, that's why.

Better off not declaring your alarm system at all on your insurance. What if you forget to turn it on or don't use it during the day or it has a failure? It just gives the insurance company an excuse not to pay out or pay out less.

The reduction is usually very small and not really worth it. Shopping around for other insurance companies or just telling them you will so often gets the same or better reduction IME.

KoolKid

I agree. The reduction in your home insurance wont even cover the annual service to maintain the standard. Not to mention the massive outs you are giving them.

Effects

bk wrote: »

Better off not declaring your alarm system at all on your insurance.

That's my plan. It'll be there for my own peace of mind.