Rent Prices/Cost of Living off the wall

jay0109

Pugzilla wrote: »

Lack of high rise buildings in Irish cities is one of the big problems.

True.

Open borders both within the EU and pretty much outside the EU are a major factor too.
Look at all those overcrowded houses you keep reading about in the papers...stacked with Brazilian 'students'. Or the housing lists ...a few years ago Fingals list was found to be 50% non-nationals (1/2 EU nationals and the other 1/2 former asylum seekers).

Dublin is a small but wealthy city in an open border zone of 500m people.
So when times are good we're going to have tens of thousands moving here both illegally and legally.
And when times are bad, some of them will leave and the flows in will stop leading to falling rents and negative equity. At which point landlords get into financial trouble (and maybe the banks too) and the Govt intervene.

So either way we're caught- a major shortage or a major glut of property. Thats the future

pwurple

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

pwurple wrote: »

Ah go way would you? An objection means nothing if its not valid. We had heaps of random objections when we were building, all overruled by planning. People can object away to their hearts content. 

I thought the Mé feiners were the bunch of people who buy luxury goods ahead of necessities. Those who buy 1000 euro smartphones.. or worse on a daft contract,  designer handbags, hair/grooming appointments costing what you'd feed a family of 4 on, cars on PCP, travel abroad on holiday every year, ridiculous faffy coffees, an addiction to cocktails, G+Ts or antipodean wine... and wah wah wah can't afford somewhere to live, don't have health insurance or a pension.  
They enjoy giving out about those who "have" a house of their own, failing to remember those people worked, spent on needs rather than wants, saved, and paid their taxes on every damn thing they own. 
General rule of thumb...  The self-made wealthy buy necessities first.

You should tell that to Elton John. The wealthy spend lots of money.

You seem to be implying here that the 20-30 year olds who cant afford houses are the ones spending like that. I doubt it given the fact that they wouldn’t have much disposable income.

Now during the boom house holders did spend like that as they had “equity in their property” and released it by remortgaging or just kept the credit card on the never never. After all what’s a 20k on a credit card if you have 200k equity in your house?

You misread. I said the wealthy buy necessities FIRST.  Is Elton John sleeping on the side of the road crying to the government for a free house in his gold chains? No, he already has somewhere to live. He is free to spend the rest of it however he wants.
And in my experience, plenty of the 20's and 30 year olds I work with spend it like water. Some are sensible and have the heads screwed on alright... live within their means, and set some aside as savings with a goal in mind.

Andy Magic

kaymin wrote: »

Your chip on the shoulder is misdirected. FG sold off all of the property assets to vulture funds who now hold the population to ransom with sky high rents. How else could Kennedy Wilson afford to pay its executives $20m a year. Blame the voters that voted in these clowns.

http://money.cnn.com/gallery/news/2015/10/28/top-paid-women-executives/7.html

Who do you think voted in these clowns? The exact people I was referring to!

Heres Johnny

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-bank-governor-warns-of-potential-fall-in-house-prices-1.3490498?mode=amp

There's the first warning shot from central bank. They may be trying to cool demand, who knows.
But the economic fundamentals are primed for a correction.
Brexit, supply coming on track albeit slowly and interest rates set to rise.
I'd say it's a probability now rather than a possibility there will be a market correction.

All those saying they can't buy due to high prices, I hope you had the foresight to save a few quid for a deposit.

Franz Von Peppercorn

pwurple wrote: »

You misread. I said the wealthy buy necessities FIRST.  Is Elton John sleeping on the side of the road crying to the government for a free house in his gold chains? No, he already has somewhere to live. He is free to spend the rest of it however he wants.
And in my experience, plenty of the 20's and 30 year olds I work with spend it like water. Some are sensible and have the heads screwed on alright... live within their means, and set some aside as savings with a goal in mind.

Of course he spends some of it it on “necessities”. He’s hardly going to spend 100k a month on shoes or whatever and then sleep rough.

I don’t get that with the 20 year olds I work with. The plus 50s are spending like water.

Franz Von Peppercorn

jay0109 wrote: »

True.

Open borders both within the EU and pretty much outside the EU are a major factor too.
Look at all those overcrowded houses you keep reading about in the papers...stacked with Brazilian 'students'. Or the housing lists ...a few years ago Fingals list was found to be 50% non-nationals (1/2 EU nationals and the other 1/2 former asylum seekers).

Dublin is a small but wealthy city in an open border zone of 500m people.
So when times are good we're going to have tens of thousands moving here both illegally and legally.
And when times are bad, some of them will leave and the flows in will stop leading to falling rents and negative equity. At which point landlords get into financial trouble (and maybe the banks too) and the Govt intervene.

So either way we're caught- a major shortage or a major glut of property. Thats the future

True the business cycle is amplified.

bri007

I don’t know many people who had a salary increase in the last 2-3 years, or if they have it wasn’t significant at all! I don’t know about every sector, but most friends and family work across different sectors and they have had no increases! I know one or two working in engineering who had increased but it wasn’t anything life changing or significant for getting a mortgage etc.

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

That's 3 years old also so will have gone up a decent bit since then given the economic climate.

onrail

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No. In some parts of the English speaking world and China.

Prices falling in Britain:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/10/celebrate-house-prices-falling-britain-property-values

I'll refine my comment - similar patterns of rent increases can be seen in several cities globally.

:rolleyes:

onrail

listermint wrote: »

That is ridiculous.


I mean why would you bother Auckland is a bit if a kip by southern hemisphere standards.not very many redeeming features

Wouldn't change it - love the place! More for the surroundings than the city itself, but give me Aucks over Sydney any day

Geuze

Heres Johnny wrote: »

30k will put you comfortably in the top half of the country. It won't mean your wealthy but most people in services sector or working in SMEs earn no more than that

Mean earnings for FT workers are 45k.

Median earnings are 40k approx.

Geuze

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Median earnings are not 40000, not a hope.
I'd say it's about 25000 at a push.

This is from my own observations as a financial advisor carrying out reviews for mortgages, pensions, investments etc....

Check the Eurostat data yourself, then.

The CSO publish mean earnings, but not median.

Eurostat publish the SES - Structure of Earnings Survey, latest version is 2014.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/labour-market/earnings/database

http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=earn_ses_annual&lang=en

Geuze

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

According to this it’s 32k

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861?mode=amp

Median earnings are estimated at €28,500 last year for all those at work. So half of those at work – 964,000 people – earned less than €28,500 and half earned more. For full-time workers, median earnings were estimated at €32,000 in gross income. The minimum adult wage of €8.65 an hour, unchanged since 2007, equates to an annual wage of €17,542

Makes the property prices seem even madder.

Note that this IT article is wrong. The writer estimated a figure.

While Eurostat actually publish median earnings, see the SES 2014 data.

2014 median earnings = 41,829 for FT staff across Industry, Construction and Services, excl. public admin

Macha

I live in Brussels and the cost of living is so much cheaper here. We pay €1000 for a lovely big 2-bed apartment in a good area.

Public transport is excellent and an unlimited monthly card costs €49 (€499/year) for all buses, trams and the metro. You don't need to own a car in this city unless specifically for your job so we don't have that expense. Oh and I don't spend 2 hours+ commuting.

How is this possible? It is a medium density city, with strong regulations around renting.

The crèche for my son costs €450/month, thanks to tax back support. How is this possible? Taxes are higher here and they value a woman's ability to work after she has children.

Dublin is such a sprawling, expensive mess, the longer we are away, the less likely it is we'll come back. And whenever I go back I see they are STILL building a low density lego houses, housing estates. How anyone thinks this is still good planning in 2018 is beyond me.

jay0109

Macha wrote: »

The crèche for my son costs €450/month, thanks to tax back support. How is this possible? Taxes are higher here and they value a woman's ability to work after she has children.

What are PAYE taxes like in Belgium? Are they really higher than here?

Macha

jay0109 wrote: »

What are PAYE taxes like in Belgium? Are they really higher than here?

Oh yes. Ireland's income tax rates are among the lowest in Europe and Belgium's are among the highest. They have 4 or more tax bands, starting at anything up to €10k being taxed at 25%, increasing so that anything above about €40k is taxed at 50%.

One year I figured out that I would pay €5000/year less income tax on my salary if I lived in Ireland.

BUT because the cost of living is so much lower here, we have MORE disposable income than in Ireland. Between rent and crèche alone, I reckon we save at least €15,000/year compared to Ireland.

And I don't know how you valorize having a 10 minute commute by bike compared to an hour stuck in a car but the extra time can spend with my son every day is priceless to me.

Bubbaclaus

Macha wrote: »

Oh yes. Ireland's income tax rates are among the lowest in Europe and Belgium's are among the highest. They have 4 or more tax bands, starting at anything up to €10k being taxed at 25%, increasing so that anything above about €40k is taxed at 50%.

And we hit 50% at 34k. So basically, we hit higher tax rates sooner, but in Belgium they expect all income earners to pay tax. Whereas in Ireland the squeezed middle are screwed over and people on lower incomes pay nothing.

MaxFlower

Macha wrote: »

........ How is this possible? Taxes are higher here and they value a woman's ability to work after she has children..........

I think that’s where we get it so wrong here. In reality, the taxes in Belgium are not higher as they spend the money they have collected from you on stuff that is useful to you so that you spend less of your disposable income buying it later. It’s a con to say we have low taxes when our public services (the reason for our taxes) is so second rate.

But we hate tax in this country for a number of reasons, just look at car sales after 08 emissions tax band or our cash economy for trades and services. That and the fact that tax collected is often poorly spent. Give me Belgium style tax system any day from what you are saying.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Geuze wrote: »

Note that this IT article is wrong. The writer estimated a figure.

While Eurostat actually publish median earnings, see the SES 2014 data.

2014 median earnings = 41,829 for FT staff across Industry, Construction and Services, excl. public admin

That’s also the mean

Moonbeam

Macha wrote: »

Oh yes. Ireland's income tax rates are among the lowest in Europe and Belgium's are among the highest. They have 4 or more tax bands, starting at anything up to €10k being taxed at 25%, increasing so that anything above about €40k is taxed at 50%.

One year I figured out that I would pay €5000/year less income tax on my salary if I lived in Ireland.

BUT because the cost of living is so much lower here, we have MORE disposable income than in Ireland. Between rent and crèche alone, I reckon we save at least €15,000/year compared to Ireland.

And I don't know how you valorize having a 10 minute commute by bike compared to an hour stuck in a car but the extra time can spend with my son every day is priceless to me.

Irelands income taxes are not low PAYE is but then there is PRSI and USC,based on this https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/belgium/index_en.htmwe is that all the income tax that you pay or is there more add ons like Ireland?
We payless income tax in Norway then we did in Ireland and education is free and creche subsidised.

Geuze

jay0109 wrote: »

What are PAYE taxes like in Belgium? Are they really higher than here?

Direct taxes are lower in Ireland than in most other countries.

http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-belgium.pdf

In contrast, Belgian direct taxes are among the highest in the OECD.


http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pdf


Note that PRSI is much higher in other countries, 4% here, 20% in Germany, but of course you get more services in other countries, like more generous ST un payments, and free GP care.

Geuze

Belgian PRSI seems to be 13.07% paid by the worker, versus 4% here.

Geuze

Belgian income tax

Income tax rates for 2017 (2018 return)

Bracket - Annual income (2017) - Rate

1 up to €11 070 = 25%

2 €11 070 – €12 720 = 30%

3 €12 720 – €21 190 = 40%

4 €21 190 – €38 830 = 45%

5 over €38 830 = 50%

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/belgium/index_en.htm

I knew income tax is high there, but these rates still surprised me.

Geuze

Moonbeam wrote: »

Irelands income taxes are not low PAYE is but then there is PRSI and USC

Ireland's very low social insurance rate at 4% means our direct taxes are low.

Also, a huge chuck of earners in Ireland don't pay any income tax.

Over 65s pay less income tax, as they get three tax reliefs that under 65s don't get.

Geuze

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s also the mean

2016 mean FT earnings = 45,611 (CSO)

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2016/


2014 median earnings = 41,829 for FT workers, Eurostat SES

Creol1

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

And we hit 50% at 34k. So basically, we hit higher tax rates sooner, but in Belgium they expect all income earners to pay tax. Whereas in Ireland the squeezed middle are screwed over and people on lower incomes pay nothing.

Noone pays 50% tax at 34k. It merely denotes the tax band and the actual rate of tax paid is far less due to substantial tax credits and reliefs.

And the "squeezed middle" is not backed up by evidence. Research has shown that, taking both direct and indirect taxes into account, those who pay the most tax are the top 10% of earners and the bottom 10%.

Geuze

Macha wrote: »

I live in Brussels and the cost of living is so much cheaper here. We pay €1000 for a lovely big 2-bed apartment in a good area.

Public transport is excellent and an unlimited monthly card costs €49 (€499/year) for all buses, trams and the metro. You don't need to own a car in this city unless specifically for your job so we don't have that expense. Oh and I don't spend 2 hours+ commuting.

Thanks for the info.

How much to buy that big 2-bedroom apt?

And how many sqm is it?

499 pa for unlimited transit is a real bargain, that is heavily subsidised by the central or local govt.

Heres Johnny

If anyone is on top tax rate and not paying into a pension and taking all tax reliefs available to them they are missing out. No need for someone on the mean or the median here to be paying very much tax at top rate at all.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Heres Johnny wrote: »

If anyone is on top tax rate and not paying into a pension and taking all tax reliefs available to them they are missing out. No need for someone on the mean or the median here to be paying very much tax at top rate at all.

I'm all for saving for a pension but if you're trying to get a house deposit together throwing 20% plus of your wage into a pension isn't going to work. Unless you earn massive money

ted1

Ireland is just under 3 times the size of Belgium with half of its population. The cost of providing services etc over a much greater land mass with only half the people is significantly more expensive.

Macha

If you have significant urban and rural sprawl, yes. If not it's a hell of a lot cheaper. Also there are significant inefficiencies here - there is a federal government, three regional governments plus some linguistic governments to boot. Then there are countless local authorities. Then there's the infamous Belgian red tape. I can't tell you the number of state agencies here, it's incredible.

I have unfortunately had to make a lot of use of the healthcare system here and it is absolutely fantastic. The Irish healthcare system is a mess in comparison.