Migration Megathread

Help!!!!

Midlife wrote: »

that's the point i was making, they go, as all immigrants do where there is cheap and available housing and then where there is cheap and available housing and people speak the same languge. So they form ghettos which are obviously a massive barrier to integration. Parallel socities and all that.

But you're acting like immmigrants inhabiting a particular area is unique to Islam and mosques.

Obviously it's not. There are still Irish parts of Boston, little Italy, Chinatown etc.

Islam has nothing to do with that. Policy does.

Nowhere did I say that. We were discussing Muslims so thats who I wrote about

oscarBravo

Help!!!! wrote: »

So you think its OK for them to come here & live like they do in the M.E./Asia or Africa?
They are choosing to come here so they have to live by our laws the same as we would if we went to their countries

That's a near-perfect strawman argument, well done.

If you can find the faintest hint of a suggestion in either the linked article or anything I've ever posted that it's OK for immigrants not to obey laws, feel free to point it out.

Help!!!!

Midlife wrote: »

I think his point is that on one hand you're saying you don't trust the gvt to integrate them properly and give out out about the PC bridage. That you have Mulsim friends who are fine and so on.

But on the other hand you're saying that over 5% of them spells trouble no matter what and they'll never integrate.

At least that'ss my reading of some of your comments.

I would be very surprised to find anyone who thinks every single person of any religion/race etc are bad if you read it that way, well thats up to you.
What I am saying that no matter how nice someone is theres plenty of examples worldwide where once the Muslim population got to 5% & above they started trying to change the country to suit them. Look at Belgium an Islamic political party won seats in the elections want to implement Sharia Law & turn Belgium into an Islamic state.
But I'm sure it will never happen here

oscarBravo

Help!!!! wrote: »

What I am saying that no matter how nice someone is theres plenty of examples worldwide where once the Muslim population got to 5% & above they started trying to change the country to suit them. Look at Belgium an Islamic political party won seats in the elections want to implement Sharia Law & turn Belgium into an Islamic state.

Everyone who stands for election - hell, everyone who votes - is "trying to change the country to suit them".

MrFresh

oscarBravo wrote: »

"Why can't those stupid foreigners just be less foreign?"

I read an interesting perspective on "integration" this morning. That is, I personally found it interesting; I have no doubt that those who have no interest in perspectives other than their own prejudices will find it less so.

People often use the word "integration" when they really mean "assimilation".

Help!!!! wrote: »

So you think its OK for them to come here & live like they do in the M.E./Asia or Africa?
They are choosing to come here so they have to live by our laws the same as we would if we went to their countries

Has anyone suggested they shouldn't have to live by our laws?

Help!!!!

MrFresh wrote: »

People often use the word "integration" when they really mean "assimilation".





Has anyone suggested they shouldn't have to live by our laws?

What about those that want to live by Sharia?

Help!!!!

oscarBravo wrote: »

Everyone who stands for election - hell, everyone who votes - is "trying to change the country to suit them".

So you'd be happy for them to get into power here & then bring in Sharia Law?
Wheres the integration/assimilation that we are told they are willing to do?

MrFresh

Help!!!! wrote: »

What about those that want to live by Sharia?

Let them at it. Once they don't breach our laws then how they live their lives is up to them. If it comes to a situation where there is a conflict between the two then Irish legislation is the winner.

Help!!!!

MrFresh wrote: »

Let them at it. Once they don't breach our laws then how they live their lives is up to them. If it comes to a situation where there is a conflict between the two then Irish legislation is the winner.

Your really willing to take a chance & go that far?

MrFresh

Help!!!! wrote: »

Your really willing to take a chance & go that far?

What chance am I taking exactly? The rules a person wants to live their life by is up to them, whether they are rules set by a religion or their own personal beliefs.

oscarBravo

Help!!!! wrote: »

So you'd be happy for them to get into power here & then bring in Sharia Law?

When you're done finding the post where I said it was OK for immigrants not to obey the law, you might start trawling for the post where I said I'd be happy about Sharia law being brought in.

Alternatively, you could stop frantically constructing straw men and actually make an effort to construct something that resembles a reasoned argument.

I don't want Sharia law. I also don't want communism, I don't want libertarianism, and I don't want the sort of Christian theocracy that in this country finds its purest expression in the fear that women might actually be able to avail of reproductive healthcare.

But not wanting something doesn't mean that I get to dictate that other people shouldn't put it forward as an electoral platform. I'm not worried about Ireland being subject to Sharia, or communism, or libertarianism, or Christian theocracy, because I don't think there's the faintest hope in hell that more than a tiny number of people will vote for any of them (with the possible tragic exception of the last, but even that is dwindling).

Belgium won't have Sharia law after its next election, or the election after that, or in fifty years' time. You really, seriously need to find some real world problems to worry about. Have you heard about climate change?

Midlife

midlife wrote:

But you're acting like immmigrants inhabiting a particular area is unique to Islam and mosques.

Help!!!! wrote: »

Nowhere did I say that. We were discussing Muslims so thats who I wrote about

.....

Help!!!! wrote: »

Once they have built a mosque they flock to that area, even if someone becomes well off they very rarely leave the area

.....

Apologies but you can understand from your own posts why I thought you were linking ghettos to Islam and mosques.

James Brown

Help!!!! wrote: »

So you'd be happy for them to get into power here & then bring in Sharia Law?
Wheres the integration/assimilation that we are told they are willing to do?

I'm a big believer in the vote. Sadly I disagree with our choice of government however, thems the breaks. If enough people want something and vote accordingly, so be it.
The world and nations change. It's nature. We strive to be civil about it.
If ever any crowd of any walk tries to force society, with menace, to dance to their tune, I'll go out and protest beside you.

Help!!!!

Midlife wrote: »

.....



.....

Apologies but you can understand from your own posts why I thought you were linking ghettos to Islam and mosques.

You had been commenting on a post where I had said that the buy up street after street of houses & I was stating that once a mosque is built more flock to that area.
Why take the post out of concept when it was you that had commented on the OP?

James Brown

Help!!!! wrote: »

You had been commenting on a post where I had said that the buy up street after street of houses & I was stating that once a mosque is built more flock to that area.
Why take the post out of concept when it was you that had commented on the OP?

Sheppard's Bush London. Hell's Kitichen, New York. Cabagge Town, Toronto. Irish immigrants flocked there.
Not to mention numerous Little Italys, (forget it Jack it's) China Towns.
People like to be among their own when settling in a foreign country. They want a taste of home. I don't see your problem.

Help!!!!

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sheppard's Bush London. Hell's Kitichen, New York. Cabagge Town, Toronto. Irish immigrants flocked there.
Not to mention numerous Little Italys, (forget it Jack it's) China Towns.
People like to be among their own when settling in a foreign country. They want a taste of home. I don't see your problem.

Never said there was a problem, the other poster had said
'I think we can agree that taking in massive amounts of people and ghettoising them in an area is a recipe for disaster'
Part of the was that they 'ghettoise' themselves, even when they are doing well financially they dont leave the area because its close to THEIR mosque.

James Brown

Help!!!! wrote: »

Never said there was a problem, the other poster had said
'I think we can agree that taking in massive amounts of people and ghettoising them in an area is a recipe for disaster'
Part of the was that they 'ghettoise' themselves, even when they are doing well financially they dont leave the area because its close to THEIR mosque.

I think it's natural and don't have an issue myself.

Brian?

Help!!!! wrote: »

So you'd be happy for them to get into power here & then bring in Sharia Law?
Wheres the integration/assimilation that we are told they are willing to do?

If they “get into power here” surely everything they do at that point is the democratic will of the people. Are you anti democratic?

It’s not really a worry though is it? The National Party want to create a Catholic theocracy in Ireland. The Anarchist party want to destroy hierarchical government and create a stateless anarchist society. Neither of those are going to happen. Because people in Ireland won’t vote for it, just like they won’t vote for a party advocating sharia law.

So some Belgians want sharia law, is it happening? No, because the vast majority of people didn’t vote for it.

Also, assimilation and integration as not the same thing. Integrating means becoming a part of society while maintaining a distinct identity. Assimilation means losing that identity completely. Muslims can easily integrate into Irish life and have done.

fash

Brian? wrote: »

If they “get into power here” surely everything they do at that point is the democratic will of the people. Are you anti democratic?

I am anti -democratic - what I am in favour of is liberal democracy - not democracy. Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner is not a system I wish to be a part of.
Your position (that 50 sheep should accept allowing 51 wolves in to vote on what is for dinner- because the decision on what would be for dinner would be "democratic" and surely those sheep aren't anti-democratic) is frankly silly.

fash

MrFresh wrote: »

Let them at it. Once they don't breach our laws then how they live their lives is up to them. If it comes to a situation where there is a conflict between the two then Irish legislation is the winner.

The "obey the law and everything is ok" is perfectly ok where you are seeking with small numbers of migrants who do not coalesce into groups. Once you have larger populations group dynamics begin to come into play.
Where there are differences between groups within a society, it is very easy for single individuals to drive wedges between those groups and use those wedges to cause significant problems for the entire of society - see the history of Northern Ireland for evidence of that.

The actions of individuals in such circumstances is outsized.

RandomName2

Brian? wrote: »

If they “get into power here” surely everything they do at that point is the democratic will of the people. Are you anti democratic?

It’s not really a worry though is it? The National Party want to create a Catholic theocracy in Ireland. The Anarchist party want to destroy hierarchical government and create a stateless anarchist society. Neither of those are going to happen. Because people in Ireland won’t vote for it, just like they won’t vote for a party advocating sharia law.

So some Belgians want sharia law, is it happening? No, because the vast majority of people didn’t vote for it.

Also, assimilation and integration as not the same thing. Integrating means becoming a part of society while maintaining a distinct identity. Assimilation means losing that identity completely. Muslims can easily integrate into Irish life and have done.

Sharia Law is practiced in parts of the UK. I don't ever remember the Sharia Law Party getting a majority in the House of Commons.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/678478/6.4152_HO_CPFG_Report_into_Sharia_Law_in_the_UK_WEB.pdf

MrFresh

RandomName2 wrote: »

Sharia Law is practiced in parts of the UK. I don't ever remember the Sharia Law Party getting a majority in the House of Commons.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/678478/6.4152_HO_CPFG_Report_into_Sharia_Law_in_the_UK_WEB.pdf

By choice though.

RandomName2

MrFresh wrote: »

By choice though.

I don't think anybody was suggesting Sharia Law being forced on non-Muslims. The proposition was the introduction of Sharia Law in Belgium, something which Islamic candidates in their election are publicly campaigning for. The argument that such candidates would have to form a majority in a given election in order that Sharia law be introduced in Belgium is baseless.

I am not even certain that non-Muslims have to (in theory) adhere to Sharia law in regimes where it is most strictly applied. Dhimmi (non-Muslim) communities typically have exercised legal autonomy to adjudicate their internal affairs in states that have practiced Sharia.

Incidentally, this may be an example of assimilation being worth the price. What people do and think in their own homes is largely their own business, and that's generally how it should be. When the state cedes authority over its central apparatuses, such as policing, judiciary, or primary education, the result is generally not a good one.

Brian?

RandomName2 wrote: »

Sharia Law is practiced in parts of the UK. I don't ever remember the Sharia Law Party getting a majority in the House of Commons.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/678478/6.4152_HO_CPFG_Report_into_Sharia_Law_in_the_UK_WEB.pdf

Did you read that report?

stefanovich

RandomName2 wrote: »

I don't think anybody was suggesting Sharia Law being forced on non-Muslims. The proposition was the introduction of Sharia Law in Belgium, something which Islamic candidates in their election are publicly campaigning for. The argument that such candidates would have to form a majority in a given election in order that Sharia law be introduced in Belgium is baseless.

I am not even certain that non-Muslims have to (in theory) adhere to Sharia law in regimes where it is most strictly applied. Dhimmi (non-Muslim) communities typically have exercised legal autonomy to adjudicate their internal affairs in states that have practiced Sharia.

Incidentally, this may be an example of assimilation being worth the price. What people do and think in their own homes is largely their own business, and that's generally how it should be. When the state cedes authority over its central apparatuses, such as policing, judiciary, or primary education, the result is generally not a good one.

You are forgetting the fact that Sharia law is repugnant nasty and intolerant and incompatible with western values and has no place here. If someone wants to live under Sharia law then go and live in Saudi Arabia or some other backwards country.

Midlife

stefanovich wrote: »

You are forgetting the fact that Sharia law is repugnant nasty and intolerant and incompatible with western values and has no place here. If someone wants to live under Sharia law then go and live in Saudi Arabia or some other backwards country.

I agree with the sentiment. Any religious based code is probably incompatible with our values. In this I include people like my Aunt and Uncle who told the family they'd have to go to confession having attended a same sex civil ceremony.

But people again need to take care not to judge all muslims alike. As far as I can tell this party calling for Sharia law in Belgium has two city councillers who got elected on things like wearing headscarves and halal meat, not promising Sharia law. In Brussels city with a 25% Muslim population, they recived less than 2% of the vote.

The anti-immigrant, anti-muslim commentary on all of this said the party got elected on a platform of introducing Sharia law and that demographics mean that Belgium will end up under Sharia law. Then we all need to be terrified as if we let in too many Muslims,it will happen to us.

The truth is very different. It's a fringe party. Their only two elected officials got elected on promises of religious freedom for Muslims, not restrective laws for everyone.

Yes, Sharia law is fooked but Muslims aren't voting for it.

stefanovich

Midlife wrote: »

I agree with the sentiment. Any religious based code is probably incompatible with our values. In this I include people like my Aunt and Uncle who told the family they'd have to go to confession having attended a same sex civil ceremony.

But people again need to take care not to judge all muslims alike. As far as I can tell this party calling for Sharia law in Belgium has two city councillers who got elected on things like wearing headscarves and halal meat, not promising Sharia law. In Brussels city with a 25% Muslim population, they recived less than 2% of the vote.

The anti-immigrant, anti-muslim commentary on all of this said the party got elected on a platform of introducing Sharia law and that demographics mean that Belgium will end up under Sharia law. Then we all need to be terrified as if we let in too many Muslims,it will happen to us.

The truth is very different. It's a fringe party. Their only two elected officials got elected on promises of religious freedom for Muslims, not restrective laws for everyone.

Yes, Sharia law is fooked but Muslims aren't voting for it.

What confuses me is that their religion dictates Sharia law is followed. So what you are saying is that your average Muslim is in fact not really practicing?

MrFresh

stefanovich wrote: »

What confuses me is that their religion dictates Sharia law is followed. So what you are saying is that your average Muslim is in fact not really practicing?

Not really that confusing is it? People practice their religion as much or little as they want. Same happens with Catholicism in this country.

Timberrrrrrrr

stefanovich wrote: »

What confuses me is that their religion dictates Sharia law is followed. So what you are saying is that your average Muslim is in fact not really practicing?

Yup, in the same way catholics are supposed to follow the 1 commandments, very few actually do and they just get on with life.

Midlife

stefanovich wrote: »

What confuses me is that their religion dictates Sharia law is followed. So what you are saying is that your average Muslim is in fact not really practicing?

I'm saying that I haven't seen anything that would suggest that a majority of an Isliamic immigrant commmunity would vote in Sharia law.

Obviously though, there are very strict muslims and not so strict muslims. Similarly, there are pre-vatican 2 masses in Ireland where women cover their heads and it's all in latin. No contraception, no reproductive rights etc. They're Catholics but over 90% of people in Ireland ticked the 'catholic' box in the last census so it's clearly a scale of how catholic you wish to be.

We can clearly see the difference between irish christianity and nutjobs in the US teaching creationism and waiting for the rapture. We don't however see these divisions in Islam so clearly and so tend to consider them all as one homogenous group.

Your average muslim is not some lunatic that wants less freedom and more repression. The religion isn't some catching disease that turns perfectly sane people mad. It's not like this is the thin edge of some wedge that's going to result in Europeans converting en masse and an entire continent throwing away all the things that make it possibly the best place in the world to be born.