Migration Megathread

stefanovich

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I grew up in the UK close to a butchers, i remember every Tuesday evening the lorry pulling up outside and pigs herded off the lorry up the side lane to the slaughter area. Have seen/watched many being butchered by the knife.

It's also pretty obvious that some people havent witnessed chicken sheds or battery farms yet will happily eat eggs/chicken without caring where it came from.

They are generally covered in faeces and injected with salt water. Enjoy your chicken nuggets.

Timberrrrrrrr

stefanovich wrote: »

They are generally covered in faeces and injected with salt water. Enjoy your chicken nuggets.

I suggest you dont visit a mcdonalds or KFC anytime soon if halal is so terrible for you.

stefanovich

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I suggest you dont visit a mcdonalds or KFC anytime soon if halal is so terrible for you.

Halal is terrible. So are factory farmed chickens. On the rare occasion I eat meat it would be organic. I don't care that it is massively expensive as it'd be a rare treat.

Eric Cartman

stefanovich wrote: »

They are generally covered in faeces and injected with salt water. Enjoy your chicken nuggets.

I dont know how we got to meat but

1) Most meat in ireland isnt pumped with salt or chicken in concentrated operations like that, a lot of this is from the states where meat quality is a hell of a lot lower, we have some of the least invasive, best quality meat and dairy in the world.

2) When people think of halal they often think of some lad dressed like he's going to the mosque standing there with a machete and a quran in a filthy shed chasing a chicken round. Which im sure does happen in some countries ,

but the reality of it is here that commercial poultry operations had all mechanised and a load of chickens come off a truck, are taken onto a conveyor and people mount them upside down onto an automated conveyor that knocks them out using electrocution in a salt water bath and then they go by an automated blade that slits the throat and lets the blood drain into a trough, and continues on to be sprayed clean and plucked etc... .

then people from the islamic faith started coming to ireland, small butchers run in their community were still probably doing shed knife chase whatever, but then the islamic foundation of Ireland had a great idea and just started certifying poultry farms that were using this automatic knife method because its draining the bird and basically most of the way there to halal anyway. I think the only real deal is not being able to process pigs on the same site. But they basically hand out certs for what was the already done thing in poultry processing, some places use it as a sales pitch to increase revenue, others don't mention it or sign up to be certified as they feel it might hurt but sure its all the same.


chicken nuggets were always crap , Im a big fan of meat, never eat frozen, always from the butcher counter , traced source in Ireland , my butcher has never used the word halal to me as I don't care, but I've seen muslims ask and they can produce a sert for the poultry provider saying it is.

Have a look at a lot of supermarkets and you'll notice the pork and the fish won't be under the same fridge as the beef / chicken / turkey / lamb might all share , you won't see the word halal but it'll play by those and kosher rules and theyll verify when asked , they dont want to lose sales.

Brian?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pretty obvious some people haven't witnessed an animal be butchered by their throats being slit open.

It's really quite a sight to see. I had to change my lunchtime café because the restaurant close to it did it out back every day. Not halal but the same method. The noise, my God I can still hear it now.

I’d be interested to know where this is? It’s extremely difficult to get a licence to slaughter animals.

As someone else said, the vast majority of halal slaughter is done in the same meat processing plants as all other meats.

James Brown

There was a slaughter house near the rear of Vicar street, Dublin. You could hear a buzz saw and screeching pigs, might still be there. Not sure what the point is in regards to immigration?

4068ac1elhodqr

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Not sure what the point is in regards to immigration?

It was mentioned already, how a minority can over rule a majority, if they shout loud enough.

In the uk for example this can mean the foreclosure of sexual health/education classes in Birmingham. Many schools, fastfood outlets and supermarket outlets providing halal meat without informing the general public.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

It was mentioned already, how a minority can over rule a majority, if they shout loud enough.

In the uk for example this can mean the foreclosure of sexual health/education classes in Birmingham. Many schools, fastfood outlets and supermarket outlets providing halal meat without informing the general public.

Why should the public be informed? Should there be a big neon sign outside stating ***HALAL MEAT SOLD HERE*** ?

Ultimate Seduction

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Why should the public be informed? Should there be a big neon sign outside stating ***HALAL MEAT SOLD HERE*** ?

You know he meant people being sold halal meet without knowing.

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Why should the public be informed? Should there be a big neon sign outside stating ***HALAL MEAT SOLD HERE*** ?

If they knew, they would choose another product, service or simply shop elsewhere.

If it's a school meal or staff canteen however, you'd be unlikely to have that luxury of choice, without creating significant upheval.

One very large supermarket there sells 100% of it's lamb products at the meat counter as halal, very few people would realise this. If they did, they'd start ti ask questions, or simply buy it elsewhere.

This is same country that went apesh&* over farmers shooting crows to protect their livestock. What what they think of ritualistic animal sacrifice to (what the majority would consider), a fake/false idol.

Timberrrrrrrr

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

You know he meant people being sold halal meet without knowing.

They sold horse meat without people knowing, i don't think halal meat even enters peoples heads when out shopping and why would it?

James Brown

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

It was mentioned already, how a minority can over rule a majority, if they shout loud enough.

In the uk for example this can mean the foreclosure of sexual health/education classes in Birmingham. Many schools, fastfood outlets and supermarket outlets providing halal meat without informing the general public.

Anyone who asks would be told and any and all health and safety concerns need be addressed. It's my understanding that is specialist and not easy to come by, also I've seen it advertised. I also don't think it's not as cost effective as 'regular' butchery so unlikely to take over. If anyone has issue with from farm to table tracking, it's done these days and can be inquired about. Aside from favouring free range eggs I don't really pay much heed to whether or not my meat was a Muslim or Jewish convert before arriving on my table.
I get this is about the few getting their way but it smacks of scrapping the barrel to me. We survived having Jews prepare animals for slaughter in much the same way, so far!!
It should be noted governments make policy change all the time without consulting the public, except if it's deemed important enough to do so.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

If they knew, they would choose another product, service or simply shop elsewhere.

If it's a school meal or staff canteen however, you'd be unlikely to have that luxury of choice, without creating significant upheval.

One very large supermarket there sells 100% of it's lamb products at the meat counter as halal, very few people would realise this. If they did, they'd start ti ask questions, or simply buy it elsewhere.

This is same country that went apesh&* over farmers shooting crows to protect their livestock. What what they think of ritualistic animal sacrifice to (what the majority would consider), a fake/false idol.

Could you cite come sources for the bolded parts please?

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Could you cite come sources for the bolded parts please?

Could you ask sensible questions please?

A quicker more immediate litmus test for you (if really needed) would be to ask the average person on the street if they wanted a plate of halal meat, or similar looking regular meat, and await the response.

You'd only need to ask a couple of dozen average folks, before a clear correlation would appear.

If you can provide evidence that any average majority, of any western country would choose the halal meat as 1st choice feel free to supply. As it would be a nonsense.

ancapailldorcha

Post deleted. Any more jokes about pork will be met with a ban.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Could you ask sensible questions please?

A quicker more immediate litmus test for you (if really needed) would be to ask the average person on the street if they wanted a plate of halal meat, or similar looking regular meat, and await the response.

You'd only need to ask a couple of dozen average folks, before a clear correlation would appear.

If you can provide evidence that any average majority, of any western country would choose the halal meat as 1st choice feel free to supply. As it would be a nonsense.

You made claims so the onus is on you to back up your silly little claims with evidence, or you can just admit that they are just your opinion.

ancapailldorcha

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Could you ask sensible questions please?

A quicker more immediate litmus test for you (if really needed) would be to ask the average person on the street if they wanted a plate of halal meat, or similar looking regular meat, and await the response.

You'd only need to ask a couple of dozen average folks, before a clear correlation would appear.

If you can provide evidence that any average majority, of any western country would choose the halal meat as 1st choice feel free to supply. As it would be a nonsense.

If you're asked to substantiate your claims, the onus is on you to do so. Asking other people to do your research for you is unacceptable here.

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You made claims so the onus is on you to back up your silly little claims with evidence, or you can just admit that they are just your opinion.

Any sensible person can tell you outright that your somewhat silly counter-claim - that they (average citizen) would choose halal meat 1st, over regular normal humanely killed meat, is simply a nonsense.

I can't speak for whatever reality you live in, can only provide a reasonable and sensible explanation for you, that all.

Can also inform you the sky is blue and the grass in green. You're very welcome.



Yes it's a claim, fair enough. Is it an 'unreasonable claim' that's the question.

James Brown

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Any sensible person can tell you outright that your somewhat silly counter-claim - that they (average citizen) would choose halal meat 1st, over regular normal humanely killed meat, is simply a nonsense.

I can't speak for whatever reality you live in, can only provide a reasonable and sensible explanation for you, that all.

Can also inform you the sky is blue and the grass in green. You're very welcome.



Yes it's a claim, fair enough. Is it an 'unreasonable claim' that's the question.

We could argue most wouldn't know or care what it was. If you asked people would they like their animals butchered like they are and explain to them that process and offer a less upsetting(?) for the animal alternative likely they'd opt for the nicer form of butchery. It's a pointless line of debate really.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Any sensible person can tell you outright that your somewhat silly counter-claim - that they (average citizen) would choose halal meat 1st, over regular normal humanely killed meat, is simply a nonsense.

I can't speak for whatever reality you live in, can only provide a reasonable and sensible explanation for you, that all.

Can also inform you the sky is blue and the grass in green. You're very welcome.



Yes it's a claim, fair enough. Is it an 'unreasonable claim' that's the question.

Yes it is, i live in the UK, It may surprise you but halal meat in mcdonalds, kfc, suoermarkets ets is not a big secret, almost everyone is pretty much aware that the meat at the butchers counter in asda, morrisons, tesco etc is halal and they really don't care.

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yes it is, i live in the UK, It may surprise you but halal meat in mcdonalds, kfc, suoermarkets ets is not a big secret, almost everyone is pretty much aware that the meat at the butchers counter in asda, morrisons, tesco etc is halal and they really don't care.

Strongly disagree that '^almost everyone' that shops e.g. in Tescos is aware.
Can you provide proof of this claim?

My own reasnoable view is that:

i) It's more commonplace than assumed.
ii) The vast majority of people aren't infomed.

Importantly however, if they knew (most don't) and if they had a choice (which often isn't the case) would they choose an alternative?

My (not an unreasonable 'assumpation'), is yes they would choose the alternative.

Minority rule can such as this, can become more important is when it starts to impact upon sexual health education classes for other majorities in schools, all in the fear of causing offence.

Hope no one is offended by this post.

MrFresh

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

My (not an unreasonable 'assumpation'), is yes they would choose the alternative.

Why?

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Strongly disagree that '^almost everyone' that shops e.g. in Tescos is aware.
Can you provide proof of this claim?

My own reasnoable view is that:

i) It's more commonplace than assumed.
ii) The vast majority of people aren't infomed.

Importantly however, if they knew (most don't) and if they had a choice (which often isn't the case) would they choose an alternative?

My (not an unreasonable 'assumpation'), is yes they would choose the alternative.

Minority rule can such as this, can become more important is when it starts to impact upon sexual health education classes for other majorities in schools, all in the fear of causing offence.

Hope no one is offended by this post.

You mean apart from all.of the news articles?


Not as common as you think (even im shocked its not.as common as i myself thought)


https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/these-are-the-major-uk-supermarkets-which-sell-halal-meat-and-why-1-9105441/amp

the majority of Halal slaughter in the UK involves stunning according to the RSPCA.

A report from the animal charity in 2012 states that 90% of sheep and 97% of cattle slaughtered using Halal methods in the UK were stunned first.

Waitrose

Waitrose said that some of its lamb is halal but all of their other meat is non-halal.

A spokesperson said: "Some of our lamb is slaughtered after a Halal blessing, but in line with our strict policies, it is always pre-stunned."

Marks and Spencer

M&S said: "All meat sold at M&S is stunned prior to slaughter, regardless of origin. This adheres to our strict animal welfare policy.

"Because religious practice isn’t a part of our sourcing policy, we don’t show on our labels whether meat has been blessed or not."

Tesco

A spokesperson said: "We require all slaughter processes for Tesco own label products to meet our stringent animal welfare requirements, without exception. In every case, the animal is stunned before slaughter.

"We do however, in a small number of stores, sell branded meat or host concessions that sell un-stunned halal and kosher meat. This is to serve customers who specifically wish to purchase un-stunned meat. This meat is clearly labelled Halal or Kosher, so that our customers are able to make informed choices."

Morrisons

Some of the branded chicken, lamb and beef they serve is halal as is the New Zealand lamb.

Sainsbury's

A Sainsbury's spokesperson said:

Sainsbury's is cutting 2,000 jobs

"In line with our high welfare standards, all the animals used for our own brand meat are stunned prior to slaughter.

"Under no circumstances would any of our own brand meat be from an animal that has not been stunned prior to slaughter.

"The animal will always be treated humanely with the utmost respect.

"In New Zealand it is common for lamb to be blessed however we have never requested this and all of our own brand meat is from animals stunned prior to slaughter so it would be wrong to label our own brand meat as Halal.

"We do sell a selection of branded halal and kosher products in some stores, all of which is very clearly labelled."

Asda

A range of halal and kosher products are sold at Asda.

4068ac1elhodqr

MrFresh wrote: »

Why?

Why not?

Feel free to test this assumpation on the average person on the street, offer them two plates, but do clearly explain the differences.

One plate has animal meat that was killed instantaneously with a bolt to the head (or similar technique) in order to reduce pain, before processing.

The other was slowly bled to death, in a ritualistic sacrifical manner (to what may/may not be a flase idol). Mention too, that the RSPCA recognises this method causes unneccessary suffering to the animal.

Ask them also if they approve or disapprove of sexual health education classes in schools, while they ponder on their difficult choice on the meat.

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You mean apart from all.of the news articles?

There's plenty of news articles too on the advancement of quantum mechanics and cold fusion, wonder has the public read them all too. Why not?

The most viable method of informing would be before POS or at the actual POP point of purchase. This really doesn't exist in main supermarkets.

There are plenty of other stickers regarding lottery sales, paypoint/payment facilities and hygenie ratings. Not to mention mobile phone topup services, loyality cards etc phew! That's even before fully entering the supermarket...

Is one more small sticker too much to ask, even on an inside display or are they worried about impact on sales and their end of year fiscal balance sheet.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

There's plenty of news articles too on the advancement of quantum mechanics and cold fusion, wonder has the public read them all too. Why not?

The most viable method of informing would be before POS or at the actual POP point of purchase. This really doesn't exist in main supermarkets.

There are plenty of other stickers regarding lottery sales, paypoint/payment facilities and hygenie ratings. Not to mention mobile phone topup services, loyality cards etc phew! That's even before fully entering the supermarket...

Is one more small sticker too much to ask, even on an inside display or are they worried about impact on sales and their end of year fiscal balance sheet.

Did you even read what i posted?

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Did you even read what i posted?

Some wrapped products are stickered, is everything on the actual raw meat counter display labeled, do the staff warn you without asking, is the entrance labelled.

More so with McD's or any of the larger fast food outlets, have yet to see a sticker anywhere on the way in, or on the box/wrap/carton/product supplied.

It goes back to customer awareness, you claim 'almost everyone' is aware (without any supporting evidence), I'd simply question this claim.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Some wrapped products are stickered, is everything on the actual raw meat counter display labeled, do the staff warn you without asking, is the entrance labelled.

The link i provided and the replies from supermarkets give you this answer! Again I'll ask, did you read what i posted?

More so with McD's or any of the larger fast food outlets, have yet to see a sticker anywhere on the way in, or on the box/wrap/carton/product supplied.

Wellnas someone who doesnt eat fast food i don't know if they do or not, why not email them and ask instead of making assumptions?

It goes back to customer awareness, you claim 'almost everyone' is aware (without any supporting evidence), I'd simply question this claim.

Well the links i provided show that it's not as widespread as you have claimed. Animals are stunned and slaughtered humanely, the odd bit that has had an auld prayer book waved over it isn't really that big an issue is it?

MrFresh

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Why not?

Feel free to test this assumpation on the average person on the street, offer them two plates, but do clearly explain the differences.

One plate has animal meat that was killed instantaneously with a bolt to the head (or similar technique) in order to reduce pain, before processing.

The other was slowly bled to death, in a ritualistic sacrifical manner (to what may/may not be a flase idol). Mention too, that the RSPCA recognises this method causes unneccessary suffering to the animal.

So you think people would avoid halal meat due to cruelty concerns? Hasn't someone already described how the animals are stunned first and that most slaughterhouses are de facto halal anyway due to their methods of slaughter?

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Ask them also if they approve or disapprove of sexual health education classes in schools, while they ponder on their difficult choice on the meat.

Why?

Eric Cartman

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Why not?

Feel free to test this assumpation on the average person on the street, offer them two plates, but do clearly explain the differences.

One plate has animal meat that was killed instantaneously with a bolt to the head (or similar technique) in order to reduce pain, before processing.

The other was slowly bled to death, in a ritualistic sacrifical manner (to what may/may not be a flase idol). Mention too, that the RSPCA recognises this method causes unneccessary suffering to the animal.

Ask them also if they approve or disapprove of sexual health education classes in schools, while they ponder on their difficult choice on the meat.

I think it has to be differenciated by the meats.

Almost all chicken you’ll get in any supermarket here will be halal by the virtue of the irish islamic foundation certifying that the standard stun and automatic knife method meets their criteria, whether the abatoir is halal certified or the meat is marked halal or not, there will be no difference in what you get in a highstreet supermarket or most fast food.

With regards lamb or beef I would be sure that there is now little difference with automation. Beef doesnt seem to be too big an issue but I would only imagine somebody has had to automate the lamb fully as the sheer volume of it slaughtered and consumed would necessitate that its not a guy running round after a sheep with a knife and watching it bleed out, completely impractical.