Migration Megathread

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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Wellnas someone who doesnt eat fast food i don't know if they do or not, why not email them and ask instead of making assumptions?

So you claim ignorance, fair enough. I can tell the main fast food outlets don't provide that information at entrance, POS or end product package, so email really is not required in this instance.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Animals are stunned and slaughtered humanely, the odd bit that has had an auld prayer book waved over it isn't really that big an issue is it?

Are you saying that animals that are 'stunned' (and thus slaughtered more humanely) are halal? Because that really does not sound halal compliant, if stunned to death, before slaughter.

Nor does as you say "prayer book waved". We can assume there is a bit more to it, than that lazy description.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

So you claim ignorance, fair enough. I can tell the main fast food outlets don't provide that information at entrance, POS or end product package, so email really is not required in this instance.

Do you go to restaurants and have meat? Do you quiz the waiter on how your food was slaughtered before ordering?

Are you saying that animals that are 'stunned' (and thus slaughtered more humanely) are halal? Because that really does not sound halal compliant, if stunned to death, before slaughter.

Nor does as you say "prayer book waved". We can assume there is a bit more to it, than that lazy description.

I have linked an article where it clearly states the massive majority of meat in supermarkets are not slaughtered halal. Any that are is clearly labelled yet you scan past and go off on another tangent.

Can you please refute my evidence with evidence of your own that animals that are 'stunned' (and thus slaughtered more humanely) are not considered halal?

Honestly you're truly grasping at the shortest of straws here.

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Can you please refute my evidence with evidence of your own that animals that are 'stunned' (and thus slaughtered more humanely) are not considered halal?

"Stunning cannot be used to kill an animal", according to the (UK) Halal Food Authority (HFA), a non-profit organisation that monitors adherence to halal principles.

Stunning an animal prior to slaughter (although it occurs with a percentage of supermarket stock), generally falls short of requirements according to many organisations.

It happens with some of the stock in, higher volume, larger supermarkets. But that does not mean it is viewed as ideal, some may deem it barely acceptable, but also, many also do not. The HFA don't approve.

Then there is the issue with blessing. The public majority aren't given the choice, if their meat is ritualised, in the name of what they would simply consider, a false idol.

The UK"s Lancashire County Council recently voted to end halal meat in schools. (Unstunned) meat was served at 27 council-run schools, a vocal minority appealed the majority decision, and as such, it may now be overturned.

Some countries, including Denmark, have opted to ban non-stunning slaughter altogether.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

"Stunning cannot be used to kill an animal", according to the (UK) Halal Food Authority (HFA), a non-profit organisation that monitors adherence to halal principles.

Stunning an animal prior to slaughter (although it occurs with a percentage of supermarket stock), generally falls short of requirements according to many organisations.

It happens with some of the stock in, higher volume, larger supermarkets. But that does not mean it is viewed as ideal, some may deem it barely acceptable, but also, many also do not. The HFA don't approve.

Ok so back to the link i provided, the vast majority of meat sold in the major retailers is stunned before slaughter. Most muslims (from my experiences) in the uk are the same as catholics when it comes to strict adherence to their religion.

Then there is the issue with blessing. The public majority aren't given the choice, if their meat is ritualised, in the name of what they would simply consider, a false idol.

Why would anyone care? How do you know wether the Christian butcher that slaughtered the cow that supplied your steak didnt say a little prayer over it before killing it?

The UK"s Lancashire County Council recently voted to end halal meat in schools. (Unstunned) meat was served at 27 council-run schools, a vocal minority appealed the majority decision, and as such, it may now be overturned.

Some countries, including Denmark, have opted to ban non-stunning slaughter altogether.

Can i get a link to the bolded above please?

You seriously are clutching at straws here if you think the average person cares about food being "ritualised, in the name of what they would simply consider, a false idol."

4068ac1elhodqr

Whether it's the LCC council vote being appealed^, or overruled (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-42804166),
or schools (in Birmingham) forced to stop sexual health education lessons, due primarily to parental (not pupil) protest.

The point remains: a vocal minority, can and often does, dictate to the majority if it makes enough fuss.

Often the chap that gets served quickest at the bar is the one that pushes to the front, shouts the loudest and waves a 20 note at the barman/woman the most dramatically to get their attention.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Whether it's the LCC council vote being appealed^, or overruled (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-42804166),
or schools (in Birmingham) forced to stop sexual health education lessons, due primarily to parental (not pupil) protest.

The point remains: a vocal minority, can and often does, dictate to the majority if it makes enough fuss.

Often the chap that gets served quickest at the bar is the one that pushes to the front, shouts the loudest and waves a 20 note at the barman/woman the most dramatically to get their attention.

So nothing to back up your series of false claims so you just go off on another rant?

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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So nothing to back up your series of false claims so you just go off on another rant?

By all means enjoy your KFC/BK/McD/Subway/Supermarket 'blessed' meat, if it assits you with the energy your own more-ranty-rants, good chap.

Eric Cartman

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ok so back to the link i provided, the vast majority of meat sold in the major retailers is stunned before slaughter. Most muslims (from my experiences) in the uk are the same as catholics when it comes to strict adherence to their religion.




Why would anyone care? How do you know wether the Christian butcher that slaughtered the cow that supplied your steak didnt say a little prayer over it before killing it?




Can i get a link to the bolded above please?

You seriously are clutching at straws here if you think the average person cares about food being "ritualised, in the name of what they would simply consider, a false idol."

The funny thing is nobody seems to care either way. Various bodies in the muslim world will issue halal certs to processing plants that stun with little more than a cursory glance of how the blood is drained from the animal, making sure pork isnt processed in the same building and thats it.

the bar on what counts as halal is lapse
the bar on places caring if their meat is halal is pretty lapse
the advertising of meat as halal is pretty lapse.

I have a lot of issues with muslims and muslim migration to europe , but the halal thing is a complete non issue.

Also for the record there is currently no non stun abatoirs in Ireland, Noor Foods is the only fully 'halal' butcher company and theyve been shut by the hse before.

the idea of stunning an animal before death is also only in the last 20 years, its not a classic concept.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

By all means enjoy your KFC/BK/McD/Subway/Supermarket 'blessed' meat, if it assits you with the energy your own more-ranty-rants, good chap.

I told you already i don't eat fast food, as for someone saying a few words over it? Meh!

As i asked earlier, when you go to a restaurant do you quiz the waiter or chef on how the animal that will be supplying you meal was slaughtered?

You have been found wanting with your false claims, no need to have a hissy fit.

Eric Cartman

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I told you already i don't eat fast food, as for someone saying a few words over it? Meh!

As i asked earlier, when you go to a restaurant do you quiz the waiter or chef on how the animal that will be supplying you meal was slaughtered?

You have been found wanting with your false claims, no need to have a hissy fit.

I think these people may want to avoid cabernet sauvignon too
https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/08/23/blessing-of-the-grapes-celebrates-livermore-valleys-2017-harvest/
those blessed grapes are bad or something.

Sawduck

Reading this thread makes my head spin and my stomach hungry for some KFC chicken

4068ac1elhodqr

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The funny thing is nobody seems to care either way.

Again like Timber an uncited claim. If you make a false claim please provide evidence to supoprt it.

Also without awareness, people aren't always well informed enough to choose, and often a choice isn't available.

It does have parallels with sexual education classes, again a minority can in instances force a decision on the majority to stop these, by making enough noise.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Also for the record there is currently no non stun abatoirs in Ireland, Noor Foods is the only fully 'halal' butcher company and theyve been shut by the hse before.

From memory there was some fairly recent public protests mentioned in the press, may have been in the north at a large chicken processing plant, maybe moypark or somewhere like that.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the idea of stunning an animal before death is also only in the last 20 years, its not a classic concept.

The real question is it kinder, is it 'progress' (in ending animal cruelty). Indeed.

Guess it goes back to what's progress, what's good, and in the overall greater good, while not trying to upset anyone at the same time.

A forward looking country such as Denmark (which has banned non-stunning) might be correct and progressive. The alternative is regressive.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Again like Timber an uncited claim. If you make a false claim please provide evidence to supoprt it.

Also without awareness, people aren't always well informed enough to choose, and often a choice isn't available.

It does have parallels with sexual education classes, again a minority can in instances force a decision on the majority to stop these, by making enough noise.



From memory there was some fairly recent public protests mentioned in the press, may have been in the north at a large chicken processing plant, maybe moypark or somewhere like that.



The real question is it kinder, is it 'progress' (in ending animal cruelty). Indeed.

Guess it goes back to what's progress, what's good, and in the overall greater good, while not trying to upset anyone at the same time.

A forward looking country such as Denmark (which has banned non-stunning) might be correct and progressive. The alternative is regressive.

You made several false claims without providing evidence to support them, when shown that you were wrong with your claims you went off on a different tangent without having the decency to even admit that you were wrong.

MrFresh

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

By all means enjoy your KFC/BK/McD/Subway/Supermarket 'blessed' meat, if it assits you with the energy your own more-ranty-rants, good chap.

Would you really be bothered if someone had blessed the food you ate?

Eric Cartman

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Again like Timber an uncited claim. If you make a false claim please provide evidence to supoprt it.

Also without awareness, people aren't always well informed enough to choose, and often a choice isn't available.

It does have parallels with sexual education classes, again a minority can in instances force a decision on the majority to stop these, by making enough noise.



From memory there was some fairly recent public protests mentioned in the press, may have been in the north at a large chicken processing plant, maybe moypark or somewhere like that.



The real question is it kinder, is it 'progress' (in ending animal cruelty). Indeed.

Guess it goes back to what's progress, what's good, and in the overall greater good, while not trying to upset anyone at the same time.

A forward looking country such as Denmark (which has banned non-stunning) might be correct and progressive. The alternative is regressive.

its nothing like the sexual education classes, its slapping an approval label on a process that was already there, its like a certification rather than changing a process.

there was indeed protests , its not that they stopped stunning chickens, they just put a halal label on it and people went mad thinking they had spent millions completely changing how their factory works to sell a few kebabs.

I would agree that non stunning should be banned, its cruel, but what im saying is that at the moment the muslim councils etc... are actually being pretty lax on allowing stunning and still calling meat halal. People are protesting against a kind of slaughter that is a more strict definition of halal and just isnt happening here or outside of some exclusively smaller operations in the UK.

If you go in to supervalu tomorrow and buy 4 chicken breasts and a lamb shank, there is almost no chance those animals were not stunned.

Timberrrrrrrr

MrFresh wrote: »

Would you really be bothered if someone had blessed the food you ate?

Probably goes to mass at the weekend and eats little wafers that have been "blessed" though and doesnt think twice about it.

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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You made several false claims without providing evidence to support them, when shown that you were wrong with your claims you went off on a different tangent without having the decency to even admit that you were wrong.

You also made an unbacked claim ('almost everyone' is aware of halal meat being widely present in most supermakets) right after complaining about my reasonable assumption.

So you see no one is perfect, not even yourself, or I.

Perhaps if people didn't request evidence for every single reasonble assumption or comment, there would be more discussion, as less hot heads, don't you think? / Or is deflection a useful tool, perhaps.

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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Probably goes to mass at the weekend and eats little wafers that have been "blessed" though and doesnt think twice about it.

Nope, but that is unfounded, and unmoderated mockery. ah very classy indeed.
Well done you!

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

You also made an unbacked claim ('almost everyone' is aware of halal meat being widely present in most supermakets) right after complaining about my reasonable assumption.

So you see no one is perfect, not even yourself, or I.

Perhaps if people didn't request evidence for every single reasonble assumption or comment, there would be more discussion, as less hot heads, don't you think? / Or is deflection a useful tool, perhaps.

In my experience from living here in the UK, Yes most people are aware that halal meat is present in supermarkets, not to the extent you claimed but yes its present at the butcher counters. Are you even aware that many of the major retailers over here have an halal counter in their meat sections?

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

In my experience from living here in the UK, Yes most people are aware that halal meat is present in supermarkets, not to the extent you claimed but yes its present at the butcher counters. Are you even aware that many of the major retailers over here have an halal counter in their meat sections?

Strange how some people going on about halal meat, spend a lot time taking the piss out of vegans and vegetarians. A mate in the UK who is vegan had a few Tommy Robinson fans come into a Facebook group he's a member of for vegetarians going on about subway using halal meat. Agenda soon came apparent and they weren't to happy being told to **** right off.

ancapailldorcha

Sawduck wrote: »

Reading this thread makes my head spin and my stomach hungry for some KFC chicken

MrFresh wrote: »

Would you really be bothered if someone had blessed the food you ate?

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Probably goes to mass at the weekend and eats little wafers that have been "blessed" though and doesnt think twice about it.

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Nope, but that is unfounded, and unmoderated mockery. ah very classy indeed.
Well done you!

Enough of the petty sniping and nonsense please.

tretorn

There is simply no assimilation or integration possible with Muslims in western Society and Muslims for the most part, the men anyway, want to live according to their own customs because through these customs women can be denied their rights. Hence Muslims wanting to abide by Sharia Law, whats in sharia Law for women, hmmm, very little. In fact the Muslim religion and the Law in Muslim countries are one and the same, there is no separation.

The terrorists in Sri Lanka were educated, two of them were brothers from one of the wealthiest families in Sri Lanka, some of them had travelled to the Uk and the States while in Third Level education so it cant be claimed that they were marginalised and disadvantaged and all those pathetic excuses given for grown men to queue beside a breakfast bar full of children on holiday and all the while intending to blow everyone to Kingdom come.

The Sri Lankans are a lovely race and very dependent on tourism, they gave refuge to Muslims from Pakistan and now the locals want these mostly innocent refugees to leave,they certainly wont be letting anymore in. The security Service ignored detailed warnings given about these terrorists so who in their right mind would holiday in Sri Lanka again.

Does anyone else believe the terrorists are already in Ireland just like they were in other European countries and in Sri Lanka. I have no confidence that non nationals are being screened properly or being monitored, even the ones that have red flags raised. Look at how many sham marriages were taking place and how many non nationals are making total fools of those responsible for the safety and integrity of our taxi service. I think the terrorists are here already and just waiting for their orders and when they take action it will be carnage.

James Brown

tretorn wrote: »

There is simply no assimilation or integration possible with Muslims in western Society and Muslims for the most part, the men anyway, want to live according to their own customs because through these customs women can be denied their rights. Hence Muslims wanting to abide by Sharia Law, whats in sharia Law for women, hmmm, very little. In fact the Muslim religion and the Law in Muslim countries are one and the same, there is no separation.

The terrorists in Sri Lanka were educated, two of them were brothers from one of the wealthiest families in Sri Lanka, some of them had travelled to the Uk and the States while in Third Level education so it cant be claimed that they were marginalised and disadvantaged and all those pathetic excuses given for grown men to queue beside a breakfast bar full of children on holiday and all the while intending to blow everyone to Kingdom come.

The Sri Lankans are a lovely race and very dependent on tourism, they gave refuge to Muslims from Pakistan and now the locals want these mostly innocent refugees to leave,they certainly wont be letting anymore in. The security Service ignored detailed warnings given about these terrorists so who in their right mind would holiday in Sri Lanka again.

Does anyone else believe the terrorists are already in Ireland just like they were in other European countries and in Sri Lanka. I have no confidence that non nationals are being screened properly or being monitored, even the ones that have red flags raised. Look at how many sham marriages were taking place and how many non nationals are making total fools of those responsible for the safety and integrity of our taxi service. I think the terrorists are here already and just waiting for their orders and when they take action it will be carnage.

Thanks for moving this from one form of butchery to another.
Can I ask in all earnestness, what is your point, what do you think should be done in relation to immigrants, particularly those of the Muslim faith, what are you looking to happen? I get you're concerned, maybe afraid.

Timberrrrrrrr

tretorn wrote: »

There is simply no assimilation or integration possible with Muslims in western Society and Muslims for the most part, the men anyway, want to live according to their own customs because through these customs women can be denied their rights. Hence Muslims wanting to abide by Sharia Law, whats in sharia Law for women, hmmm, very little. In fact the Muslim religion and the Law in Muslim countries are one and the same, there is no separation.

The terrorists in Sri Lanka were educated, two of them were brothers from one of the wealthiest families in Sri Lanka, some of them had travelled to the Uk and the States while in Third Level education so it cant be claimed that they were marginalised and disadvantaged and all those pathetic excuses given for grown men to queue beside a breakfast bar full of children on holiday and all the while intending to blow everyone to Kingdom come.

The Sri Lankans are a lovely race and very dependent on tourism, they gave refuge to Muslims from Pakistan and now the locals want these mostly innocent refugees to leave,they certainly wont be letting anymore in. The security Service ignored detailed warnings given about these terrorists so who in their right mind would holiday in Sri Lanka again.

Does anyone else believe the terrorists are already in Ireland just like they were in other European countries and in Sri Lanka. I have no confidence that non nationals are being screened properly or being monitored, even the ones that have red flags raised. Look at how many sham marriages were taking place and how many non nationals are making total fools of those responsible for the safety and integrity of our taxi service. I think the terrorists are here already and just waiting for their orders and when they take action it will be carnage.

I have a consultant with my surgeon next week, i must mention this to him and ask how he manages to jeep the mask from slipping.

I'll also go ask the local pakistani lads that run the local Londis how they haven't managed to butcher me yet for coming into their shop and buying rashers and beers on a weekly basis.

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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I have a consultant with my surgeon next week, i must mention this to him ....

I'll also go ask the local pakistani lads that run the local Londis ...

That nice antidote, however would have been much better, if it was a 'she or them' you mentioned.

Wonder if females from some of these coummunites you mentioned are somewhat under-represented in workplaces.

A report from the UK Women and Equalities Committee, reveals Muslim women are three times as likely to be unemployed and looking for a job than women generally.

Would the majority of Muslim communities frown upon women working, particularing in public fronting services, and have a preference for them to focus on childcare at home?

Hopefully they can be encouraged towards independence, to take places in Universities, make their own reproductive choices, and be continue to be supported and protected by the various equal opportunity legistation that exists for all.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

That nice antidote, however would have been much better, if it was a 'she or them' you mentioned.

But my consultant isn't a she, if she was a she (and i see a lot of muslim women in the hospital) then i would have said she.

The 2 lads that run the shop are brothers and both single, you usually see them around the town most saturday nights having a few beers.

Wonder if females from some of these coummunites you mentioned are somewhat under-represented in workplaces.

A report from the UK Women and Equalities Committee, reveals Muslim women are three times as likely to be unemployed and looking for a job than women generally.

Would the majority of Muslim communities frown upon women working, particularing in public fronting services, and have a preference for them to focus on childcare at home?

Hopefully they can be encouraged towards independence, to take places in Universities, make their own reproductive choices, and be continue to be supported and protected by the various equal opportunity legistation that exists for all.

I don't know .... the thing is, neither do you.

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I don't know .... the thing is, neither do you.

No, but maybe the UK's Social Mobility Commission would know, one of their reports from 2017 found that 18 per cent of adult Muslim women are recorded as “looking after home and family” - three times as many as in the uk population as a whole.

But yes, let's both agree it would be for the best for them to make their own independent choices on their education, childbirth and access to employment opportunities.

James Brown

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

That nice antidote, however would have been much better, if it was a 'she or them' you mentioned.

Wonder if females from some of these coummunites you mentioned are somewhat under-represented in workplaces.

A report from the UK Women and Equalities Committee, reveals Muslim women are three times as likely to be unemployed and looking for a job than women generally.

Would the majority of Muslim communities frown upon women working, particularing in public fronting services, and have a preference for them to focus on childcare at home?

Hopefully they can be encouraged towards independence, to take places in Universities, make their own reproductive choices, and be continue to be supported and protected by the various equal opportunity legistation that exists for all.

I expect you're a great campaigner for womens rights the world over. I admire that. You must be super busy with the Jewish Orthodox, Polygamists in the U.S. with several wives some in their young teens and the like. Should we keep an eye on the lads working in McDonalds, American company, right here among us? Possibly staffed by Klan and militia types, right?

4068ac1elhodqr

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I expect you're a great campaigner for womens rights the world over. I admire that. You must be super busy with the Jewish Orthodox, Polygamists in the U.S. with several wives some in their young teens and the like.

Thanks very much, yes every woman should be treated equally. The World is not perfect but every little bit helps. Hope you can do your bit too.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Should we keep an eye on the lads working in McDonalds, American company, right here among us? Possibly staffed by Klan and militia types, right?

Keep an eye on? Not sure what, but really don't like what your suggesting with this. Are you implying mass surveillance of the public? That does not sound right.

MrFresh

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Thanks very much, yes every woman should be treated equally. The World is not perfect but every little bit helps. Hope you can do your bit too.



Keep an eye on? Not sure what, but really don't like what your suggesting with this. Are you implying mass surveillance of the public? That does not sound right.

As a campaigner for women's rights are you opposed to laws which control what a woman can wear, such as a ban on the burka and hijab?