Migration Megathread

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

No, but maybe the UK's Social Mobility Commission would know, one of their reports from 2017 found that 18 per cent of adult Muslim women are recorded as “looking after home and family” - three times as many as in the uk population as a whole.

But yes, let's both agree it would be for the best for them to make their own independent choices on their education, childbirth and access to employment opportunities.

I do agree, nice to see you have dropped the lies about people being sold halal meat in the supermarkets without their knowledge.

James Brown

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Thanks very much, yes every woman should be treated equally. The World is not perfect but every little bit helps. Hope you can do your bit too.



Keep an eye on? Not sure what, but really don't like what your suggesting with this. Are you implying mass surveillance of the public? That does not sound right.

Are you suggesting we shouldn't be wary of an entire people just because of the actions of a few?

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I do agree, nice to see you have dropped the lies about people being sold halal meat in the supermarkets without their knowledge.

What we certainly agree is that you have supplied lies and 'no evidence whatsoever' that 'almost everybody' (as you claimed) is aware.

- that most of the large supermarkets and moreso many, many of the larger fast-food chain outlets sell it across the uk, without any indication or information supplied to the customer, unless they make inquiries beforehand.

What do you put (i.e. estimate) put this magical 'almost everybody' at? 98% 95%, seems rather delusional to be frank.

4068ac1elhodqr

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Are you suggesting we shouldn't be wary of an entire people just because of the actions of a few?

That would be the goverments job, not mine, to make assesments on the '10's of thousands' across Ire & the UK (already deemed), to be at risk and of exposure to radical thinking.

All we can do is hope for a peaceful future for all, including better integration. Often this appears to be a significant challenge across Europe.

4068ac1elhodqr

MrFresh wrote: »

As a campaigner for women's rights are you opposed to laws which control what a woman can wear, such as a ban on the burka and hijab?

Interesting question. Is it a choice they always freely make,
Or is it often derived directly from community pressure or expectations?

Same with the workplace (females from these communities in the uk are x3 more likely to be 'stay at home' types). Is this also a 'free-will' choice?

Who really knows for sure, but a good question you have raised anyway.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

What we certainly agree is that you have supplied lies and 'no evidence whatsoever' that 'almost everybody' (as you claimed) is aware.

- that most of the large supermarkets and moreso many, many of the larger fast-food chain outlets sell it across the uk, without any indication or information supplied to the customer, unless they make inquiries beforehand.

What do you put (i.e. estimate) put this magical 'almost everybody' at? 98% 95%, seems rather delusional to be frank.

Well you seem to think all meat is halal (which was proven in my earlier link to be wrong) and the halal meat that is on sale not very well advertised that the meat is halal, tell me, when was the last time you were in a supermarket in the UK?

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Well you seem to think all meat is halal

Eh? Jibberish.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

...and the halal meat that is on sale not very well advertised that the meat is halal,

Yes not very well advertised, this is more apparent in regards to fast-food outlets. You claim 'almost everyone is aware' (without anything to support that claim) I disagree, it's really as simple as that, next.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

tell me, when was the last time you were in a supermarket in the UK?

Travel alot, and have lived/worked in numerous countries, so that would be fairly recently.

One of the largest food outlets has a prominent slogan on the end of it's uk tv/press ads, "all our beef comes from uk & Irish farms" It does not mention however, even in the small print how that is processed.

Seperately, another discount chain had to airbrush out the Greek cross from it's greek yought packaging imagery, in case it caused offence. I kid you not.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Eh? Jibberish.



Yes not very well advertised, this is more apparent in regards to fast-food outlets. You claim 'almost everyone is aware' (without anything to support that claim) I disagree, it's really as simple as that, next.



Travel alot, and have lived/worked in numerous countries, so that would be fairly recently.

One of the largest food outlets has a prominent slogan on the end of it's uk tv/press ads, "all our beef comes from uk & Irish farms" It does not mention however, even in the small print how that is processed.

Seperately, another discount chain had to airbrush out the Greek cross from it's greek yought packaging imagery, in case it caused offence. I kid you not.

So when you were in UK supermarkets you failed to notice halal counters or halal sections of shelves that served halal meat?

Do you have an issue with kosher food too? You only seem to concentrate your ire on halal for some strange reason yet never mention kosher food. Why's that?

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So when you were in UK supermarkets you failed to notice halal counters or halal sections of shelves that served halal meat?

Didn't notice any, perhaps you're in a some specific ethnic location where that is more commonplace and expected.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Do you have an issue with kosher food too? You only seem to concentrate your ire on halal for some strange reason yet never mention kosher food. Why's that?

Any food that causes unnessary animal suffering should be questioned, why wouldn't it be addressed also.

Likewise if you feel like picking on that other tradition you brought up, why not question their tradition of circumcision. Obvs not nearly as bad as FGM (illegal in Ireland, but as yet no ones been charged, although it happens).

Again (like halal) perhaps yet another tradition that perhaps many would consider unnecessary, even barbaric.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Re the bolded above, why would they need to give those details?

On their adverts? All I can tell you is why I think they 'wouldn't' - as it would impact sales greatly and greatly effect foot traffic to their stores.

The other question regarding airbrushing off crosses from greek youghurt packaging, do you feel that is 'unnecessary', is it 'bending over backwards'?

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Didn't notice any, perhaps you're in a some specific ethnic location where that is more commonplace and expected.

I live in what i would describe as the whitest town i have ever seen. Seriously its like dublin in the 80's.

Any food that causes unnessary animal suffering should be questioned, why wouldn't it be addressed also.

And yet you have never mentioned it before i bought it up.

Likewise if you feel like picking on that other tradition you brought up, why not question their tradition of circumcision. Obvs not nearly as bad as FGM (illegal in Ireland, but as yet no ones been charged, although it happens).

Again (like halal) perhaps yet another tradition that perhaps many would consider unnecessary, even barbaric.

I agree, any sort of mutilation of children for religious reasons (or any other that isnt medically required for that matter) should result in a long prison sentence.

On their adverts? All I can tell you is why I think they 'wouldn't' - as it would impact sales greatly and greatly effect foot traffic to their stores.

Or could it be that the animal is stunnwd and slaughtered in a humane way. I'll ask again, when you go to a restaurant do you quiz the waiter or chef as to how your steak was killed?

The other question regarding airbrushing off crosses from greek youghurt packaging, do you feel that is 'unnecessary', is it 'bending over backwards'?

I have no knowledge of this so i can't really comment, can you post a link so i can read up on it please?

4068ac1elhodqr

Perhaps this (airbrushing crosses) could also be classed on this theme of 'minority decision making, over a majority', in this case, the pretext is of being 'offensive'.



It's a very nice youghurt indeed, and greek product line range, just a bit strange regarding their eu-wide policy on package airbrushing.
So far, the decision doesn't appear to be been reversed.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Perhaps this (airbrushing crosses) could also be classed on this theme of 'minority decision making, over a majority', in this case, the pretext is of being 'offensive'.



It's a very nice youghurt indeed, and greek product line range, just a bit strange regarding their eu-wide policy on package airbrushing.
So far, the decision doesn't appear to be been reversed.

I suggest you write to Lidl and ask them about this as it's the first time i have heard about this.

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I live in what i would describe as the whitest town i have ever seen. Seriously its like dublin in the 80's.

In greater London is it? As white Ballymacaballyferkin you say?

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And yet you have never mentioned it before i bought it up.

Good on you focusing on this, it's such a small incidence rate of the overall population, and as such has no influence on main fast food outlets, so why bring it up? Well done anyway.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I agree, any sort of mutilation of children for religious reasons (or any other that isnt medically required for that matter) should result in a long prison sentence.

Agree, strange how no one in Ireland has been charged yet for the hundreds of yearly cases, hmmm.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Or could it be that the animal is stunnwd and slaughtered in a humane way. I'll ask again, when you go to a restaurant do you quiz the waiter or chef as to how your steak was killed?

HFA in the uk don't recognise this as sufficent. 27 council-run schools in LCC area don't stun their animals, and when the council voted to stop it, they were stopped from doing so.

Should I have to quiz every water? Should there be a symbol on the window or ideally on the menu, in the same way there is a symbol for nuts/wheat/milk/gluten/vegey/spicy and so on, this would be the most efficent solution.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I have no knowledge of this so i can't really comment, can you post a link so i can read up on it please?

See above, yes indeed many like you would have no knowledge of this occurance.

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I suggest you write to Lidl and ask them about this as it's the first time i have heard about this.

So you have no actual comment or view on this, cool stuff.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

In greater London is it? As white Ballymacaballyferkin you say?

Cheshire actually

Good on you focusing on this, it's such a small incidence rate of the overall population, and as such has no influence on main fast food outlets, so why bring it up? Well done anyway.

Surely animals being slaughtered inhumanely is you goal here though, to bring about awareness?

Agree, strange how no one in Ireland has been charged yet for the hundreds of yearly cases, hmmm.

If you have evidence for these cases i suggest you go to the guards and report the people involved, i know i wouldnt hesitate.

HFA in the uk don't recognise this as sufficent. 27 council-run schools in LCC area don't stun their animals, and when the council voted to stop it, they were stopped from doing so.

Well then the council need to take it up withnthe suppliers, if the parents dont like how the food is prepped then they should give their kids packed lunches.

Should I have to quiz every water? Should there be a symbol on the window or ideally on the menu, in the same way there is a symbol for nuts/wheat/milk/gluten/vegey/spicy and so on, this would be the most efficent solution.

So thats a no? Pretty much the same attitude people have when.out shopping on a saturday so.

See above, yes indeed many like you would have no knowledge of this occurance.

I don't get the outrage, maybe I'm just not as easily triggered as some.

Timberrrrrrrr

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

So you have no actual comment or view on this, cool stuff.

See my reply above.

4068ac1elhodqr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Cheshire actually

A very nice part of the world indeed.

And an usual choice of town to live in - with it as you said something along the lines of being: 'whiter than the whitest town in Ireland!'. Ah well.

I prefer a bit of 'diverse' true multi-culture myself (not two opposing ideologies or mono-cultures as such), but actual true diversity and thus speedy self-motivated integration.

More a bit of an european mix, and perhaps some aussie banter, canadian friendlyness, americano directness, kiwi querkyness, japanese politness, nepalese & Indian warmness, latino energy and so on...

ancapailldorcha

Right. Since we're back to bickering and one-upping, I am locking this.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Right. Since we're back to bickering and one-upping, I am locking this.

Mod: I'm re-opening this thread. Please ensure that posts are constructive and civil.

Sand

I've noticed that there has recently been an upsurge in antisemitism in Germany, with Merkel warning of 'spectres of the past'. These attacks are so prevalent that German Jews are now warned not to wear identifying symbols in public.

There is no reference to is carrying out these attacks, but given Merkel's reference to the past and the articles references to far-right politics, the reader is clearly supposed to understand that the perpetrators are indigenous Germans adhering to so called far right parties and groups. But no evidence is presented for this, and you have to presume in the absence of evidence it is highly unlikely that German kids go through decades of education and indoctrination regarding the holocaust and not be affected by it.

The most infamous example of these attacks was carried out unprovoked by 3 Arabic men on a Berlin street in 2018. In 2014, 3 Muslims attempted to burn down a synagogue on the anniversary of Kristallnacht. Again in 2018, there was controversy when 2 Muslim rappers received a German music award despite using antisemitic lyrics referencing the holocaust.

You could say these are anecdotal and cherry picked. The German government claims that 90% of antisemitic incidents in Germany are carried out by the 'extreme right', not Muslims, but that's entirely misleading. You have to remember the German government and media denied for almost a week that anything unusual had happened in Cologne's 15-16 New Year celebrations. The practise in Germany is to classify any unsolved incident as being carried out by the 'extreme right'. German Jews do not believe the government analysis that 90% of the attacks upon them are carried out by the extreme right. According to a study carried out by Bielefeld University in 2017 regarding the experiences of 533 German Jews, both the extreme right and extreme left commit roughly the same amount of attacks (the left carry out slightly more). Both however are minorities as perpetrators, and even combined. Muslims are hugely overrepresented, carrying out 48% of hidden/passive incidents, 62% of verbal harassment and 81% of physical attacks suffered by the respondents. Muslims only represent 5.4% of the population of Germany, and just 2.4% of its citizens. What Merkel wants people to believe is not borne out by the research. This is not spectres of the past, it is spectres of the future that Merkel and her ilk have inflicted upon Germany through their pursuit of mass migration into Germany and Europe.

In the wake of the earlier infamous attacks, Merkel was previously willing to acknowledge that there was a new strain of antisemitism in German amongst Germany's new migrant population. These 'new Germans' come from societies and cultures with deeply antisemitic views. Unlike indigenous Germans they likely feel no real connection to the holocaust: it was not their grandparents or great grandparents. The holocaust is not just receding into memory, it increasingly will have happened in another country. Is it that surprising that Germany is seeing an upsurge in antisemitism given they have welcomed people from antisemitic parts of the world to enter their country? Germany pursued as multikulti future, and they are seeing perfectly predictable ethnic strife as a result.

This could simply be the new normal for Europe's Jewish population in the era of mass migration into Europe. The German government seems only willing to exploit the issue for perceived electoral gain, drumming up fear about the so called far-right as a phantom menace. There does not seem to be much hope of a genuine solution until the problem is correctly identified.

MrFresh

As much as I'm sure it would suit people to have Muslims be responsible for all anti-semitism, it''s much more likely that it's a result of the rise of right wing parties. Yeah, a politician might get popular support because he is giving out about Muslims but nationalism doesn't stop at disliking Muslims. People who rally against Muslims and immigrants will just have to accept they are on the same side as the racists and ethnic nationalists.

ArthurDayne

Sand wrote: »

I've noticed that there has recently been an upsurge in antisemitism in Germany, with Merkel warning of 'spectres of the past'. These attacks are so prevalent that German Jews are now warned not to wear identifying symbols in public.

There is no reference to is carrying out these attacks, but given Merkel's reference to the past and the articles references to far-right politics, the reader is clearly supposed to understand that the perpetrators are indigenous Germans adhering to so called far right parties and groups. But no evidence is presented for this, and you have to presume in the absence of evidence it is highly unlikely that German kids go through decades of education and indoctrination regarding the holocaust and not be affected by it.

The most infamous example of these attacks was carried out unprovoked by 3 Arabic men on a Berlin street in 2018. In 2014, 3 Muslims attempted to burn down a synagogue on the anniversary of Kristallnacht. Again in 2018, there was controversy when 2 Muslim rappers received a German music award despite using antisemitic lyrics referencing the holocaust.

You could say these are anecdotal and cherry picked. The German government claims that 90% of antisemitic incidents in Germany are carried out by the 'extreme right', not Muslims, but that's entirely misleading. You have to remember the German government and media denied for almost a week that anything unusual had happened in Cologne's 15-16 New Year celebrations. The practise in Germany is to classify any unsolved incident as being carried out by the 'extreme right'. German Jews do not believe the government analysis that 90% of the attacks upon them are carried out by the extreme right. According to a study carried out by Bielefeld University in 2017 regarding the experiences of 533 German Jews, both the extreme right and extreme left commit roughly the same amount of attacks (the left carry out slightly more). Both however are minorities as perpetrators, and even combined. Muslims are hugely overrepresented, carrying out 48% of hidden/passive incidents, 62% of verbal harassment and 81% of physical attacks suffered by the respondents. Muslims only represent 5.4% of the population of Germany, and just 2.4% of its citizens. What Merkel wants people to believe is not borne out by the research. This is not spectres of the past, it is spectres of the future that Merkel and her ilk have inflicted upon Germany through their pursuit of mass migration into Germany and Europe.

In the wake of the earlier infamous attacks, Merkel was previously willing to acknowledge that there was a new strain of antisemitism in German amongst Germany's new migrant population. These 'new Germans' come from societies and cultures with deeply antisemitic views. Unlike indigenous Germans they likely feel no real connection to the holocaust: it was not their grandparents or great grandparents. The holocaust is not just receding into memory, it increasingly will have happened in another country. Is it that surprising that Germany is seeing an upsurge in antisemitism given they have welcomed people from antisemitic parts of the world to enter their country? Germany pursued as multikulti future, and they are seeing perfectly predictable ethnic strife as a result.

This could simply be the new normal for Europe's Jewish population in the era of mass migration into Europe. The German government seems only willing to exploit the issue for perceived electoral gain, drumming up fear about the so called far-right as a phantom menace. There does not seem to be much hope of a genuine solution until the problem is correctly identified.

I do recall that you spent much time on this forum arguing that people of different ethnic backgrounds and religions should never have mixed in the first place.

Why have you suddenly developed such great concern for the Jews of Western Europe when your own views would likewise seem to suggest that they should just head back to the Middle East and huddle in isolation, well away from anyone who looks, acts or prays differently?

splashuum

Last weeks Lyon bomb suspect has been identified as Mohamed Hichem. (Immigrant from Algeria).

Eric Cartman

MrFresh wrote: »

As much as I'm sure it would suit people to have Muslims be responsible for all anti-semitism, it''s much more likely that it's a result of the rise of right wing parties. Yeah, a politician might get popular support because he is giving out about Muslims but nationalism doesn't stop at disliking Muslims. People who rally against Muslims and immigrants will just have to accept they are on the same side as the racists and ethnic nationalists.

Racists and white supremacist / far right radicals are a hell of a lot smaller population than muslims in most of these countries, if the ‘far right’ can cause such a marked rise then all arguments about there are not being enough muslims to cause a problem for the lgbt/jewish/female community have to be thrown out.

Sand

MrFresh wrote: »

As much as I'm sure it would suit people to have Muslims be responsible for all anti-semitism

There is no evidence for or claim that that Muslims are responsible for all antisemitism.

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I do recall that you spent much time on this forum arguing that people of different ethnic backgrounds and religions should never have mixed in the first place.

Anyone who observes history can notice that multi-ethnic empires and countries fall apart in ethnic strife. To the extent that they can survive its by forging a homogeneous identity, after centuries of mayhem.

Anyone who claims to be surprised by an upswing in ethnic strife after having introduced mass migration into Europe is either too uninformed to contribute to the discussion, or dishonest.

Why have you suddenly developed such great concern for the Jews of Western Europe when your own views would likewise seem to suggest that they should just head back to the Middle East and huddle in isolation, well away from anyone who looks, acts or prays differently?

Why shouldn't I be concerned with the victims of ethnic strife, especially with the way things are trending? The policies you support create this strife. You consider it a price worth other people paying, I don't.

ArthurDayne

Sand wrote: »

Anyone who observes history can notice that multi-ethnic empires and countries fall apart in ethnic strife. To the extent that they can survive its by forging a homogeneous identity, after centuries of mayhem.

Anyone who claims to be surprised by an upswing in ethnic strife after having introduced mass migration into Europe is either too uninformed to contribute to the discussion, or dishonest.

Yes -- I am well aware of your Canute-like views on the topic. I simply wanted to point out the fact that, if you are being consistent, you should simply be advocating that the Jews of Europe need only get the hell out and find an isolated place somewhere

So can you be consistent and just suggest that the Jews leave Europe? Or are you just another person who can never reconcile the abstract nature of their views with what they actually entail in practical reality?

Danzy

MrFresh wrote: »

As much as I'm sure it would suit people to have Muslims be responsible for all anti-semitism, it''s much more likely that it's a result of the rise of right wing parties. Yeah, a politician might get popular support because he is giving out about Muslims but nationalism doesn't stop at disliking Muslims. People who rally against Muslims and immigrants will just have to accept they are on the same side as the racists and ethnic nationalists.

The 2 leading groups in Europe for anti semitism in modern Europe are Islamists and then the Left.

According to an EU Agency study.

Midlife

Anyone know who the leading groups for anti-Islamic actions are?

Just seeing as we're being consistent. Otherwise this is just a cherrypickng of everything bad a muslim has done and basically return to a litany of conformation bias.

Are we discussing racism in Europe or are we just discussing bad things muslims have done?

Brian?

Midlife wrote: »

Anyone know who the leading groups for anti-Islamic actions are?

Just seeing as we're being consistent. Otherwise this is just a cherrypickng of everything bad a muslim has done and basically return to a litany of conformation bias.

Are we discussing racism in Europe or are we just discussing bad things muslims have done?

Pegida had themselves a little riot in Eindhoven yesterday. Protesting outside one of the mosques, in one of the best integrated cities in Europe. If we apply Sand at al logic we should be afraid of all white Dutch people now.

My uber drivers yesterday were Syrian and Yemeni. 2 men who incredibly grateful for the opportunity the Netherlands has given them and only want to contribute to society and raise their kids in safety. In my experience every Muslim I meet here is the same.

Do people think these honest, hard working people should be punished because of the actions extremists?

Brian?

Sand wrote: »

There is no evidence for or claim that that Muslims are responsible for all antisemitism.



Anyone who observes history can notice that multi-ethnic empires and countries fall apart in ethnic strife. To the extent that they can survive its by forging a homogeneous identity, after centuries of mayhem.

Anyone who claims to be surprised by an upswing in ethnic strife after having introduced mass migration into Europe is either too uninformed to contribute to the discussion, or dishonest.



Why shouldn't I be concerned with the victims of ethnic strife, especially with the way things are trending? The policies you support create this strife. You consider it a price worth other people paying, I don't.

Which empires fell apart because of ethnic
strife?

Europe has always had mass immigration.