Apple pulls out of data center in Athenry due to fcuked up planning and gob****es

AlekSmart

schmittel wrote: »

Brian Mc Donagh from Wicklow on his love of forests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7MptWbXAsU

Is there a "Freeman of Ireland" dimension to this production ?

The lad entering stage right at 1:04 looks vaguely familiar...

road_high

You can't paint a fence in this country these days without a big hullabaloo and serial objectors. In the past yes, things were too loose perhaps. But it's gone the other way now.

yrreg0850

bear1 wrote: »

You just need to look at an taisces record of appealing literally anything over 3 storeys.

An taisce also should be banned from appealing anything.

Totally agree
I think An Taisce appeal everything.

Boggles

There is talk about serial objectors - An Taisce have only taken 5 Judicial Reviews in the last 5 years all based on contravention of planning or various EU Directives – An Taisce won 3 of those and the other 2 are still before the courts.

Everything?

masculinist

kneemos wrote: »

These data centres consume massive amounts of power apparently,with little or nothing in return.

They support the ESB too . Everyone gets a piece of the action. And cities dont spring up overnight. Someones got to be the first to encourage the ESB etc to improve the infrastructure.

zom

Growing energy consumption is not something one can be proud anymore. Green nuts counting every CO2 unit we produce, will rather punish us for more usage.

dr.fuzzenstein

A lot of people are arguing "but what about the power consumption!"
Well, I have a mad idea. Why don't we employ some kind of device, a "meter" if you will, that is capable of measuring the electricity that is flowing into the Apple DC?
I'm sure if we divided electricity up into some kind of "units", we could then set a price for one of those "units".
Counting all those "units" displayed on the "meter", we can multiply them by the set price and arrive at a figure that Apple should pay us for electricity used.
If there was some kind of "green" tax, it could (by means of some fairly advanced mathematics) be applied to the price of electricity.
I know this sounds completely bananas, but I really think this could work!
That way it would be possible to supply Apple (or indeed anyone) with electricity, and not incur a massive financial loss!
I'm sure the boffins at the ESB will be able to construct some kind of electricity measuring device.
It's so crazy it might just work.

wexie

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

A lot of people are arguing "but what about the power consumption!"
Well, I have a mad idea. Why don't we employ some kind of device, a "meter" if you will, that is capable of measuring the electricity that is flowing into the Apple DC?
I'm sure if we divided electricity up into some kind of "units", we could then set a price for one of those "units".
Counting all those "units" displayed on the "meter", we can multiply them by the set price and arrive at a figure that Apple should pay us for electricity used.
If there was some kind of "green" tax, it could (by means of some fairly advanced mathematics) be applied to the price of electricity.
I know this sounds completely bananas, but I really think this could work!
That way it would be possible to supply Apple (or indeed anyone) with electricity, and not incur a massive financial loss!
I'm sure the boffins at the ESB will be able to construct some kind of electricity measuring device.
It's so crazy it might just work.

That sounds pretty complicated dude....I'm not sure that would ever work out

Fiery mutant

Boggles wrote: »

Or we end up with 12 off licenses in a row, watching them all close down until the largest multi chain one survives.

Well that is kind of like what we have now. Take O Connell street for example. The main thoroughfare in our capital city has been turned into a red light zone of fast food outlets and poundshops, where the only culture that can be seen is the local dregs with their trackies tucked neatly into their socks.

The plannning laws are like many other things in this country. ****3d.

Deise Vu

Isn't the CO2 emissions thing a bit of a red herring? Denmark apparently has 70% renewables, fair play to them. But unless they go to 100% then this data centre is just going to add the same requirement for power that it would have in Ireland but there will only be the same amount of renewable energy sources which they presumably are already using in full.

In fact, given that their weather is more extreme Winter and Summer than ours, I would have thought Denmark would require more power to retain a balanced temperature.

knipex

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

A lot of people are arguing "but what about the power consumption!"
Well, I have a mad idea. Why don't we employ some kind of device, a "meter" if you will, that is capable of measuring the electricity that is flowing into the Apple DC?
I'm sure if we divided electricity up into some kind of "units", we could then set a price for one of those "units".
Counting all those "units" displayed on the "meter", we can multiply them by the set price and arrive at a figure that Apple should pay us for electricity used.
If there was some kind of "green" tax, it could (by means of some fairly advanced mathematics) be applied to the price of electricity.
I know this sounds completely bananas, but I really think this could work!
That way it would be possible to supply Apple (or indeed anyone) with electricity, and not incur a massive financial loss!
I'm sure the boffins at the ESB will be able to construct some kind of electricity measuring device.
It's so crazy it might just work.

If you think the problem is solved by paying for the actual electricity consumed then .....

raspberrypi67

Greed...!!!

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

If they're making an objection on valid grounds, then it does not matter if the objector is a vested interest, a regular citizen, local of far afield.

The whole point is to ensure that all development is done by the book and is properly planned.
Nothing short of absolute disaster could come of removing/restricting peoples ability to object on legitimate grounds.

Let them object once and if that's dismissed it should be game over no dragging it through various different levels of court. One objection followed by possibly allowing one appeal but no more and no possible way for further objections from a person or persons who have had their objections dismissed (or anyone else who is objecting on similar grounds.

Also hugely important projects like the Apple one and other big MNCs should be fast tracked at a massively fast rate to ensure there are no hold ups for the companies involved.

Ubbquittious

Karen Late Rubber-stamp wrote: »

Also hugely important projects like the Apple one and other big MNCs should be fast tracked at a massively fast rate to ensure there are no hold ups for the companies involved.

They often are. After letting the big MNC go ahead then the planning crowd usually exact their revenge on some 1-man company just trying to start his business by haranguing him with all sorts of spurious requirements, block him because it might endanger the habitat of some animal that's in plentiful supply and come up with various other bullsh1t reasons to stop him so they can feel powerful again.


If he wants to appeal then he needs to lodge 100,000 quid to the high court while the planning crowd fights him tooth and nail with his own property tax money. All these megacorps are up on a pedestal and the benefits they bring are way overstated.

Hotblack Desiato

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'm sure if we divided electricity up into some kind of "units", we could then set a price for one of those "units".
Counting all those "units" displayed on the "meter", we can multiply them by the set price and arrive at a figure that Apple should pay us for electricity used.

That's completely unjust.
Apple's road tax pays for their electricity.

#Right2Leccy

Cantona's Collars

We don't see these folk dragging Starbucks through the courts for opening their 1 millionth store (exaggeration) within yards of their existing stores without going through proper planning procedures and adding to our huge waste problem.

zom

Deise Vu wrote: »

Isn't the CO2 emissions thing a bit of a red herring?

Wouldn't call half of billion of Euro "red herring":

Serious rise in Irish greenhouse gas emissions, figures show.
Expert warns of fines of up to €455m in 2020 as EU targets likely to be missed.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/serious-rise-in-irish-greenhouse-gas-emissions-figures-show-1.3306961

Boggles

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

We don't see these folk dragging Starbucks through the courts for opening their 1 millionth store (exaggeration)

You do actually.

I think there was 3 or 4 force-ably closed in the past couple of years, with more going to court.

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

within yards of their existing stores without going through proper planning procedures and adding to our huge waste problem.

They are basically pulling fast ones, they are pretending they are shops, so they don't need to apply.

But sure we should let MNCs have free reign. :rolleyes:

Cantona's Collars

Boggles wrote: »

You do actually.

I think there was 3 or 4 force-ably closed in the past couple of years, with more going to court.




They are basically pulling fast ones, they are pretending they are shops, so they don't need to apply.

But sure we should let MNCs have free reign. :rolleyes:

My point was Apple did this by the book yet 3 people managed to scupper the whole project while in Dublin city centre we see a multinational chain of coffee shops open on every corner with a 2 fingers to planning laws and as you said only a small percentage that opened were brought to task after the fact.

Ubbquittious

Ubbquittious wrote: »

If he wants to appeal then he needs to lodge 100,000 quid to the high court while the planning crowd fights him tooth and nail with his own property tax money. All these megacorps are up on a pedestal and the benefits they bring are way overstated.

Their importance is very much understated if anything, they are absolutely vital to the Irish economy we would be absolutely f*cked without MNCs. The more we can get in the better and if that needs more relaxed planning, tax incentives, grants etc etc then just do it and get them and their high value jobs here.

Deise Vu

zom wrote: »

Wouldn't call half of billion of Euro "red herring":



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/serious-rise-in-irish-greenhouse-gas-emissions-figures-show-1.3306961

I presume the polluter would pay for that? The point I am making is, from a green perspective, the world is going to get this Data Centre whether it is in Athenry or Denmark so why raise it as a point against Athenry. I presume Greens aren't interested in the fines, they want to stop the emissions? This isn't going to stop the emissions until Denmark is 100% renewable energy, which it isn't.

It is irrelevant is they have more renewable energy than us, they are already using all their renewable sources so the additional power is going to have to come from traditional sources. Plus, as I said earlier, Denmark gets much more extreme temperatures than we do, so more power is going to be required to ensure optimum temperature.

Boggles

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

My point was Apple did this by the book yet 3 people managed to scupper the whole project while in Dublin city centre we see a multinational chain of coffee shops open on every corner with a 2 fingers to planning laws and as you said only a small percentage that opened were brought to task after the fact.

By the book means that those 3 people can object, that's the law. The Supreme Court looked at it and decided that on a point of law they have a case.

In reality Apple threw a tantrum because they weren't willing to follow our laws through, so they took their ball and fooked off.

Now you can disagree with the law, but the law is the law. No one should be above it. Why Leo the leader of the country is sticking his head into matters of law is really the bigger question here, IMO.

As for Starbucks they don't need planning permission in all scenarios.

But it seems to me from what I read, they were pulling fast ones and are being brought to task over that, according to our laws.

City Centres are being turned into Spars / Coffee Shops / Pound Shops and that is down in a small way to planning laws, the real reasons are another debate entirely.

One way to combat that would be if the Councils didn't give planning to the MNC that wants to build the massive complex outside of the town.

But then you would have people screaming about backward planning stifling progress and jobs.

cnocbui

Boggles wrote: »

By the book means that those 3 people can object, that's the law. The Supreme Court looked at it and decided that on a point of law they have a case.

In reality Apple threw a tantrum because they weren't willing to follow our laws through, so they took their ball and fooked off.

Now you can disagree with the law, but the law is the law. No one should be above it. Why Leo the leader of the country is sticking his head into matters of law is really the bigger question here, IMO.

As for Starbucks they don't need planning permission in all scenarios.

But it seems to me from what I read, they were pulling fast ones and are being brought to task over that, according to our laws.

City Centres are being turned into Spars / Coffee Shops / Pound Shops and that is down in a small way to planning laws, the real reasons are another debate entirely.

One way to combat that would be if the Councils didn't give planning to the MNC that wants to build the massive complex outside of the town.

But then you would have people screaming about backward planning stifling progress and jobs.

Politicians make the laws, so they are perfectly entitled to stick their heads in. I wish they would do a lot more of it as Ireland's laws are way passed needing overhauling.

Boggles

cnocbui wrote: »

Politicians make the laws, so they are perfectly entitled to stick their heads in. I wish they would do a lot more of it as Ireland's laws are way passed needing overhauling.

No they aren't.

They pass legislation, they are more entitled to do that. Have you every lobbied your local TD in what specific laws you think need overhauling.

They should not be sticking their heads into matters currently in front of the courts, and they should certainly not be taking informal meetings with one side or the other.

Or should we just have a whip round, get Bertie back and stick up the tent again?

Are memories that short?

VinLieger

Boggles wrote: »

Are memories that short?

How some people are able to so easily forget the decades of piss poor planning this country went through due to politicians sticking their noses where they didnt belong baffles me.

Boggles

Deise Vu wrote: »

I presume the polluter would pay for that? The point I am making is, from a green perspective, the world is going to get this Data Centre whether it is in Athenry or Denmark so why raise it as a point against Athenry. I presume Greens aren't interested in the fines, they want to stop the emissions?

It is irrelevant is they have more renewable energy than us, they are already using all their renewable sources so the additional power is going to have to come from traditional sources. Plus, as I said earlier, Denmark gets much more extreme temperatures than we do, so more power is going to be required to ensure optimum temperature.

Denmark are the Lionel Messi of renewable energies.

Ireland are Glenn Whelan.

The Danes will surpass by some margin their EU targets, we quite frankly don't have a hope.

They are 90% self sufficient we are around 15%.

You might as well be comparing Messi to Whelan.

Deise Vu wrote: »

This isn't going to stop the emissions until Denmark is 100% renewable energy, which it isn't.

It's not about completely stopping emissions.

Fun Fact, at certain times Denmark is actually 100% green.

We can't be compared to them, but we can aspire to be them, at least in part.

Deise Vu

Boggles wrote: »

Denmark are the Lionel Messi of renewable energies.

Ireland are Glenn Whelan.

The Danes will surpass by some margin their EU targets, we quite frankly don't have a hope.

They are 90% self sufficient we are around 15%.

You might as well be comparing Messi to Whelan.



It's not about completely stopping emissions.

Fun Fact, at certain times Denmark is actually 100% green.

We can't be compared to them, but we can aspire to be them, at least in part.

Simple maths is not your thing is it? When Denmark is capable of 100% renewable energy, including the additional requirement for this Data Centre, then they can absorb the additional requirement. Unfortunately the Danes themselves estimate they will reach this target by 2050, by which time the technology for Data Centres and just about everything else will be almost certainly be completely different.

Boggles

Deise Vu wrote: »

Simple maths is not your thing is it? When Denmark is capable of 100% renewable energy, including the additional requirement for this Data Centre, then they can absorb the additional requirement. Unfortunately the Danes themselves estimate they will reach this target by 2050, by which time the technology for Data Centres and just about everything else will be almost certainly be completely different.

Simple comprehension is not your thing obviously?

What are you banging on about?

What has any of that got to do with Ireland incurring massive fines for missing emission targets?

micosoft

-

ninja 12

If only they built the Data Centre in Wicklow :rolleyes:

Ulster Bank seeking judgment for €22m against three brothers over unpaid 'data centre' loans

https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/ulster-bank-seeking-judgment-for-22m-against-three-brothers-over-unpaid-data-centre-loans-854000.html

No wonder he didn't want Apple to build anywhere else .

VinLieger

ninja 12 wrote: »

If only they built the Data Centre in Wicklow :rolleyes:


https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/ulster-bank-seeking-judgment-for-22m-against-three-brothers-over-unpaid-data-centre-loans-854000.html

No wonder he didn't want Apple to build anywhere else .

Well now we know for a fact the real reasons why the were objecting, scumbags

gctest50

ninja 12 wrote: »

If only they built the Data Centre in Wicklow :rolleyes:


https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/ulster-bank-seeking-judgment-for-22m-against-three-brothers-over-unpaid-data-centre-loans-854000.html

No wonder he didn't want Apple to build anywhere else .

Hardly the same people schmittel found ?

schmittel wrote: »

Brian Mc Donagh from Wicklow on his love of forests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7MptWbXAsU

.

marno21

ninja 12 wrote: »

If only they built the Data Centre in Wicklow :rolleyes:


https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/ulster-bank-seeking-judgment-for-22m-against-three-brothers-over-unpaid-data-centre-loans-854000.html

No wonder he didn't want Apple to build anywhere else .

What an absolute cluster****

Harry Palmr

Just in cased people are wondering what the connection with Athenry is

from the RTE report in the OP

However, a review of that decision was sought by three objectors, locals Mr Daly and Ms Fitzpatrick, and businessman Brian McDonagh in the High Court.

Last October, the High Court cleared the way for the project to proceed and the following month, the court refused to give the objectors permission to appeal its decision to the Court of Appeal.

jailing him would be nice.

Roger Hassenforder

VinLieger wrote: »

Well now we know for a fact the real reasons why the were objecting, scumbags

If there was ever a reason why planning process needs reform.
Jesus wept, what a "beaut"

VinLieger

How nice for the breaking news article to provide the 3 gentlemens addresses

VinLieger

They originally tried to hide their involvement

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/apple-remains-stuck-in-mud-in-fields-of-athenry-1.2845918

McDonagh does not appear on the list of original objectors in Athenry. There is one objection recorded, however, from a Dr Yeok See Ooi, who gave an address in Ballymount, Dublin. Dr Ooi gave no reasons for the objection.

Companies office records show McDonagh has operated businesses from an address close to the one given by Dr Ooi. A trawl of High Court documents reveals Dr Ooi was, in fact, McDonagh’s girlfriend. She is an ophthalmologist based in Wicklow, and appears to share his Delgany home.

ninja 12

gctest50 wrote: »

Hardly the same people schmittel found ?

.

Yup , looks like it .

VinLieger wrote: »

How nice for the breaking news article to provide the 3 gentlemens addresses

haha , I didn't notice that bit .

VinLieger wrote: »

They originally tried to hide their involvement

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/apple-remains-stuck-in-mud-in-fields-of-athenry-1.2845918

More than a bit underhanded :mad:

Capt'n Midnight

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Just in cased people are wondering what the connection with Athenry is

from the RTE report in the OP



jailing him would be nice.

Or locking him in a room with locals who would have got jobs, or provided services, so that everyone can have a frank and honest discussion, off camera.

Greaney

Oh no, if only somebody tried to warn us...

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/regulator-proposes-data-centrecurb-after-new-power-supply-riskwarning-40517887.html?fbclid=IwAR3KkbDYpS1VXjRC9ueMhIL6BSOsAhaWvVC658CG8KCkdSqQC3OVm6MZktw


https://www.businesspost.ie/energy/eirgrid-and-cru-warn-of-rolling-blackouts-if-action-is-not-taken-on-data-centre-growth-7f484021?utm_campaign=article&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=we

Ubbquittious

Greaney wrote: »

Oh no, if only somebody tried to warn us...

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/regulator-proposes-data-centrecurb-after-new-power-supply-riskwarning-40517887.html?fbclid=IwAR3KkbDYpS1VXjRC9ueMhIL6BSOsAhaWvVC658CG8KCkdSqQC3OVm6MZktw


https://www.businesspost.ie/energy/eirgrid-and-cru-warn-of-rolling-blackouts-if-action-is-not-taken-on-data-centre-growth-7f484021?utm_campaign=article&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=we

They'll probably still offer people generating solar power a piss-poor feed in tariff

listermint

Greaney wrote: »

Oh no, if only somebody tried to warn us...

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/regulator-proposes-data-centrecurb-after-new-power-supply-riskwarning-40517887.html?fbclid=IwAR3KkbDYpS1VXjRC9ueMhIL6BSOsAhaWvVC658CG8KCkdSqQC3OVm6MZktw


https://www.businesspost.ie/energy/eirgrid-and-cru-warn-of-rolling-blackouts-if-action-is-not-taken-on-data-centre-growth-7f484021?utm_campaign=article&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=we

If only they took a serious revamp of the electricity supply network here too. They've been shafting home generated solar for years with no FIT for residential customers basically taking it for free.

Greaney

Indeed, but never the less one of the objectors tried to highlight this & was mocked & vilified....

''The total demand of 3,800MW would equate to 70pc of the peak demand for electricity by the whole country which is around 5,500MW on a high-usage day in winter''.

Furthermore, every time it's brought up, our politicians say things like, 'oh that can be dealt with a district heating system'. But they're not actually interested in making the multinationals 'do' anything... it's just an answer for journalists:(

Thelonious Monk

All those cat gifs aren't going to host themselves. Why are we such a dumping ground for data centres though, is it just the low tax thing?

cnocbui

It's because Ireland is so consistently cold. The annual average temperature is 10°C. Normally data centres have to spend nearly as much for the electricity to power their airconditioning as they do on data. In Ireland, they can get away with cooling using ambient air for most of the year, dramatically cutting their running costs compared to being sited somewhere warmer.

Greaney

cnocbui wrote: »

It's because Ireland is so consistently cold. The annual average temperature is 10°C. Normally data centres have to spend nearly as much for the electricity to power their airconditioning as they do on data. In Ireland, they can get away with cooling using ambient air for most of the year, dramatically cutting their running costs compared to being sited somewhere warmer.

Yes, that was the spin, and yet.....

https://www.businesspost.ie/energy/eirgrid-and-cru-warn-of-rolling-blackouts-if-action-is-not-taken-on-data-centre-growth-7f484021?utm_campaign=article&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=web&fbclid=IwAR3RjIDCvPHP2UntoDwYdDRjhDMpmWRwfYDOhW72dytKmOm_qS578OxFvjg

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/regulator-proposes-data-centrecurb-after-new-power-supply-riskwarning-40517887.html?fbclid=IwAR1oXElH7kjUfHZvRCDDUxM3SUO2ygRx6vWTMKks0SFcPbU-APGxG-ruLPw

cnocbui

Greaney wrote: »

Yes, that was the spin, and yet.....

https://www.businesspost.ie/energy/eirgrid-and-cru-warn-of-rolling-blackouts-if-action-is-not-taken-on-data-centre-growth-7f484021?utm_campaign=article&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=web&fbclid=IwAR3RjIDCvPHP2UntoDwYdDRjhDMpmWRwfYDOhW72dytKmOm_qS578OxFvjg

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/regulator-proposes-data-centrecurb-after-new-power-supply-riskwarning-40517887.html?fbclid=IwAR1oXElH7kjUfHZvRCDDUxM3SUO2ygRx6vWTMKks0SFcPbU-APGxG-ruLPw

And your point is?

bucketybuck

cnocbui wrote: »

It's because Ireland is so consistently cold.

I don't know much about this topic, but I do know that there are plenty of colder places than Ireland in the world, and plenty others with similar temperate climates.

So why Ireland and not any of the other "cold" options?

sydthebeat

cnocbui wrote: »

And your point is?

agreed

neither of those two articles do anything to counter the point you are making.

in fact the increase in number if data centers (due to the reason you listed) is teh very reason those articles exist

cnocbui

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't know much about this topic, but I do know that there are plenty of colder places than Ireland in the world, and plenty others with similar temperate climates.

So why Ireland and not any of the other "cold" options?

You will probably find that the places that get colder in winter, have far warmer summer maximum temperatures, so you have to provision the centre with cooling hardware for these times, which would cost a lot. I doubt the handful of warm days in Ireland in a year would need more than a ground water based heat exchanger to cool the air on those few days.

My central heating is on a programmable thermostat set to 20°C. I never bother turning the CH on or off as one would with just a timer based system, it's just always on. It was ridiculous the number of times the heating came on for a short while over the last two 'summers'. (I'm in Tipp.)

The other thing a data centre needs is to be on or near major internet backbone fibre, and Ireland has a lot of the main Europe <--> US ones passing through so is ideal in that respect also.

There are alternatives with similar climates - Denmark being one, and it was chosen by Apple as the site for their second centre until they cancelled that one also.

There are other important factors like political and social security which Ireland also ticks boxes for.