Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

LeinsterDub

webwayz wrote: »

The Metro North (MetroLink) should link with the Rail Line - so airport traffic can use the rail and metro to get to the airport from drogheda, dundalk, newry and belfast! also Dart users from the extension to balbriggan and lusk can get the metro to the airport, or DCU or mater hospital etc. Connectivity!

It's linking with Tara

bk

tom1ie, that is all based on the idea that BusConnects won't go through. While there will certainly be objections, all major projects have them, that doesn't mean those objections will be successful.

There were lots of objections to pretty much every motorway built throughout the country, there were objections to the M50 and then it's widening, there were objections to the port tunnel, there were objections to the street widening in Drumcondra for buses, there were objections to every Luas line and extension.

And yet, in the end, they all still got done, so while BusConnects will certainly be tough, I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

The other issue, is that you seem to think a SW tunnel won't face similar objections. At the moment people to the SW might say they would like a Metro and I'm sure they are. But if you actually start seriously planning for it, showing the many homes that will need to be CPO'd to build stations and people realise how much traffic disruption there will be for 3 to 6 years as trucks go to and from these station sites through these already highly congested streets, you will have just as many objections to a SW tunnel.

All major plans face objections, it is just the reality of them.

Now I think a SW tunnel should still be eventually done and such objections faced down. But so should the objections to BusConnects, Metrolink and the Green line tie-in, etc.

What we need to do is learn to be able to face down such objections and get on with these sort of projects. If we don't then a SW tunnel is just as unlikely to go through as BusConnects, etc.

bk

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's linking with Tara

And also at a new station at Whitworth Road. Metrolink looks to be very well connected with rail.

Qrt

bk wrote: »

And also at a new station at Whitworth Road. Metrolink looks to be very well connected with rail.

To be fair, I can't imagine many going from Balbriggan all the way to Tara to get to the airport, or all the way to Connolly, changing trains to Glasnevin (or Whitworth whatever it's called these days) and then another trip to the airport. Building an extension to the northern DART line should be planned, for the future anyway.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

And also at a new station at Whitworth Road. Metrolink looks to be very well connected with rail.

And a 5km across mostly green fields would connect it to Donabate. 7 km across open fields would connect it to Clongriffin. [from the Airport in this case]

Once building has started, I think these might be considered. The Airport is crucial to get right.

CatInABox

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's linking with Tara

Tara, and also at the Whitworth Road Station. Connectivity!

EDIT: Man, I'm slowing at reading my tabs.

bk

Qrt wrote: »

To be fair, I can't imagine many going from Balbriggan all the way to Tara to get to the airport, or all the way to Connolly, changing trains to Glasnevin (or Whitworth whatever it's called these days) and then another trip to the airport. Building an extension to the northern DART line should be planned, for the future anyway.

Sam Russell wrote: »

And a 5km across mostly green fields would connect it to Donabate. 7 km across open fields would connect it to Clongriffin. [from the Airport in this case]

Once building has started, I think these might be considered. The Airport is crucial to get right.

I agree completely. Land for a route should be reserved now and building started when Metrolink is nearing completion.

marno21

bk wrote: »

And also at a new station at Whitworth Road. Metrolink looks to be very well connected with rail.

The NTA & TII mentioned at an Oireachtas committee that integration with the heavy rail network and the Luas is one of the main components of the Metrolink scheme. It has excellent integration with the network

There was an awful push to get Metro North (old scheme) to go ahead over the last few years but this scheme is far superior in terms of integration. Building Metro North now would provide no integration with 3 rail lines. MN was heavily reliant on DART Underground going ahead for connectivity

roadmaster

Sam Russell wrote: »

And a 5km across mostly green fields would connect it to Donabate. 7 km across open fields would connect it to Clongriffin. [from the Airport in this case]

Once building has started, I think these might be considered. The Airport is crucial to get right.

Put in the Dart line and new stations you also open up a major land bank with good public transport

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

I agree completely. Land for a route should be reserved now and building started when Metrolink is nearing completion.

That should be done anyway.

tom1ie

bk wrote: »

tom1ie, that is all based on the idea that BusConnects won't go through. While there will certainly be objections, all major projects have them, that doesn't mean those objections will be successful.

There were lots of objections to pretty much every motorway built throughout the country, there were objections to the M50 and then it's widening, there were objections to the port tunnel, there were objections to the street widening in Drumcondra for buses, there were objections to every Luas line and extension.

And yet, in the end, they all still got done, so while BusConnects will certainly be tough, I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

The other issue, is that you seem to think a SW tunnel won't face similar objections. At the moment people to the SW might say they would like a Metro and I'm sure they are. But if you actually start seriously planning for it, showing the many homes that will need to be CPO'd to build stations and people realise how much traffic disruption there will be for 3 to 6 years as trucks go to and from these station sites through these already highly congested streets, you will have just as many objections to a SW tunnel.

All major plans face objections, it is just the reality of them.

Now I think a SW tunnel should still be eventually done and such objections faced down. But so should the objections to BusConnects, Metrolink and the Green line tie-in, etc.

What we need to do is learn to be able to face down such objections and get on with these sort of projects. If we don't then a SW tunnel is just as unlikely to go through as BusConnects, etc.

I don’t agree. How can bus connects be delivered in the next 10 years when it’ll be dragged through the courts, with political backing from local politicians looking for a vote. What we’ll end up with is a crap watered down version, the very fact that you have eluded to in the bus connects forum.
What are we supposed to do wait for 10 years and at the end be happy with a crap version of brt?

A metro line on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Stations can be moved and tbm portals can be moved to suit the situation at hand. Case in point na fianna.
How can a bus lane be moved if multiple objectors drag the project through the courts. That’s the difference.

Sam Russell

tom1ie wrote: »

I don’t agree. How can bus connects be delivered in the next 10 years when it’ll be dragged through the courts, with political backing from local politicians looking for a vote. What we’ll end up with is a crap watered down version, the very fact that you have eluded to in the bus connects forum.
What are we supposed to do wait for 10 years and at the end be happy with a crap version of brt?

A metro line on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Stations can be moved and tbm portals can be moved to suit the situation at hand. Case in point na fianna.
How can a bus lane be moved if multiple objectors drag the project through the courts. That’s the difference.

Only at the planning stage.

We are not even at the planning stage with Metrolink, just at 'emerging preferred route' which will be tweaked and adjusted before they get to 'preferred route'. Remember Metro North got a long way before it was cancelled and went for a completely new design from scratch.

Busconnect has the advantage of being able to built in stages, and each corridor can be planned separately. Crap designs can be cancelled without effecting other parts of the project. That is not the way with Metrolink. Once it starts construction it has to keep going.

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

Only at the planning stage.

We are not even at the planning stage with Metrolink, just at 'emerging preferred route' which will be tweaked and adjusted before they get to 'preferred route'. Remember Metro North got a long way before it was cancelled and went for a completely new design from scratch.

Busconnect has the advantage of being able to built in stages, and each corridor can be planned separately. Crap designs can be cancelled without effecting other parts of the project. That is not the way with Metrolink. Once it starts construction it has to keep going.

There is nothing stopping metrolink being built from swords to ssg. We know this route 100%. The only thing stopping the line from not going sw is the cba.
As I’ve previously said commuters are entitled to a proper pt service when they spend upwards of 90 mins on a bus regardless of the cba that route may provide.
Yes metrolink with gl tie in has a good cba and makes perfect sense.
Leaving vast swathes of Dublin with very poor bus services that bus connects will not improve (as it won’t be allowed to be built properly) is not acceptable.
Providing a proper pt service should take preference over improving an already good service regardless of cba.

bk

tom1ie wrote: »

A metro line on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Stations can be moved and tbm portals can be moved to suit the situation at hand. Case in point na fianna.
How can a bus lane be moved if multiple objectors drag the project through the courts. That’s the difference.

While stations can be moved, in the end they have to go somewhere and the SW is such a mature developed area, then one way or the other it has to go through someones house and they will be objecting and one way or another the trucks need to get to and from those sites on those roads.

No matter where you put it, there will be objections full stop.

The process for objections, DCC, ABP and then the courts is exactly the same for BusConnects and Metros unfortunately. Metros aren't some easy solution for objections.

bk

Let me stress this point. Metrolink is going to require the CPO of 100 homes. That is 100 family homes which will be completely bought, people moving out and knocked down. And many of these homes are in very wealthy and well connected areas.

By comparison, BusConnects will just require the CPO of a small bit of some people gardens. They won't lose their homes or be forced to move out, just some land. So by comparison it is much less impact.

If BusConnects can't get through, then their is little hope for Metrolink.

Consonata

bk wrote: »

Let me stress this point. Metrolink is going to require the CPO of 100 homes. That is 100 family homes which will be completely bought, people moving out and knocked down. And many of these homes are in very wealthy and well connected areas.

By comparison, BusConnects will just require the CPO of a small bit of some people gardens. They won't lose their homes or be forced to move out, just some land. So by comparison it is much less impact.

If BusConnects can't get through, then their is little hope for Metrolink.

On what basis can a CPO be overturned in the courts? How is it that it can be determined by how well connected you are like.

tom1ie

bk wrote: »

Let me stress this point. Metrolink is going to require the CPO of 100 homes. That is 100 family homes which will be completely bought, people moving out and knocked down. And many of these homes are in very wealthy and well connected areas.

By comparison, BusConnects will just require the CPO of a small bit of some people gardens. They won't lose their homes or be forced to move out, just some land. So by comparison it is much less impact.

If BusConnects can't get through, then their is little hope for Metrolink.

Yes and if a sub standard bus connects is delivered to Dublin sw which has very little impact on journey times then metro 2 won’t be delivered as the nta will play the, well we’ve already put resources and funds into that corridor, card.
By contrast I’m pretty sure 6 or 7 sites that won’t involve major cpo activity, (unlike bus connects) for stations, can be found from ssg to knocklyon.

tom1ie

bk wrote: »

While stations can be moved, in the end they have to go somewhere and the SW is such a mature developed area, then one way or the other it has to go through someones house and they will be objecting and one way or another the trucks need to get to and from those sites on those roads.

No matter where you put it, there will be objections full stop.

The process for objections, DCC, ABP and then the courts is exactly the same for BusConnects and Metros unfortunately. Metros aren't some easy solution for objections.

Sw is such a mature developed area yet at the same time your saying sw dosent have the density to support a metro (maybe not you bk but a previous poster maybe). Spaces for stations will be easier to find on a sw route than the space required for the gl tie in especially at charlemount. Beechwood won’t be too easy nor milltown.

strassenwo!f

Bray Head wrote: »

Not really. On a regional basis Ireland Southern and East has a GVA per person of €44,100. Darmstadt - the region Frankfurt is part of - is €44,800. Both are adjusted for adjusted for comparative prices. So basically the economic activity in the region each city is part of is quite similar.

Frankfurt is part of the state of Hesse, as are the cities Darmstadt, Offenbach, Hanau and Wiesbaden (the capital of the state) on the S-Bahn trains which share a pretty natural centre in Frankfurt. Mainz, the capital of a neighbouring state, and on the same S-Bahn network, is also part of that bundle of cities.

Bray Head wrote: »

Compared to Dublin, what Frankfurt has is a big legacy of public transport infrastructure and a regional government that is able to lay claim to a greater share of the economic activity there.

I am curious about this word 'legacy' here. There may well be a legacy element to the tram infrastructure being rebuilt after the War, and I'm afraid I have never looked into that. But it's very possible that the original tram network was rebuilt and incorporated into the current excellent network.

But I know that the entire U-Bahn network was a post-war thing, built broadly from the late sixties in the 80's and 90's, with later tweaks. The S-Bahn network, linking Frankfurt with its neighbouring cities, was also built gradually over the late seventies to the early nineties, with minor changes since then.

The network of S-Bahn, U-Bahn metros and trams in that city was developed over 30 or so years. It is clear that Dublin does not have similar resources to such a city, region or country.

Nevertheless, over the whole arc of the southside between the southside DART and the Hazelhatch line, it is depressing to read that Dublin doesn't plan to add a single new location served by rail transport over at least the next 22 years.

Kellyconor1982

I think busconnects is a good idea but there are routes where it is less likely to be a success and the sw corridor coming from the city is one such area.

I think most locals in places like terenure/rathfarnham would be far more supportive of the metro anyway but throw in the general nuiscance to them from busconnects and they will really roll in behind it. These are areas where there is significant affluence and it's hard to see how they won't have clout.

I think an sw metro is very viable now. If it terminated in Tallaght, that's the biggest suburban area in the city, moving on to a stop at firhouse/knocklyon/ballycullen which is a very populated area with a young population with green space in somewhere like ballycullen where you could easily put a station and a big p+r, then a stop in rathfarnham/terenure area (this would be harder to do admittedly and could be a hot potato)- pethaps a stop around bushy park would cause less discord, then a stop in rathmines which could be difficult again admittedly. The whole route could be 6 or 7 strategically placed stops on this corridor that would make a gigantic difference to the area and with park and ride facilities at the outlying stops, it could take a lot of traffic from places like Blessington off the road. The closeness of the route to the m50 will be very useful also and make it even more viable.

Before busconnects, i would have said it may be the late 2030s at the earliest before i could conceive this route having a metro 2. Now, i think it might have the impact of potentially bringing this possibility to the table more. A lot of the affluent people on part of this route will kick up a royal fuss about their gardens and metro 2 would cause a lot less aesthetic damage, albeit a major ****fest over the locations of certain stops in places.

If there is an area that will be next to get a metro, then i would see this as being next in line and desrvedly so.

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes and if a sub standard bus connects is delivered to Dublin sw which has very little impact on journey times then metro 2 won’t be delivered as the nta will play the, well we’ve already put resources and funds into that corridor, card.
By contrast I’m pretty sure 6 or 7 sites that won’t involve major cpo activity, (unlike bus connects) for stations, can be found from ssg to knocklyon.

Doesn't bus connects cover all major corridors in Dublin? Are you saying the NTA will never build rail again after ML?

Zebra3

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Nevertheless, over the whole arc of the southside between the southside DART and the Hazelhatch line, it is depressing to read that Dublin doesn't plan to add a single new location served by rail transport over at least the next 22 years.

Yes, but the Hazelhatch line which is way under its potential is looking at a huge upgrade and you seem to have forgotten there is a line already in between the two that opened in 2004, was subsequently extended and is also going to be upgraded.

LeinsterDub

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Nevertheless, over the whole arc of the southside between the southside DART and the Hazelhatch line, it is depressing to read that Dublin doesn't plan to add a single new location served by rail transport over at least the next 22 years.

There are new Dart stations planned and the Dart expansion will result in the current rail infrastructure actually being useful .

strassenwo!f

And where are these new stations planned, within that arc?

LeinsterDub

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And where are these new stations planned, within that arc?

They aren't misread your reference to Dublin as Dublin as a whole not just in that arc.

strassenwo!f

Yes, precisely.

Within that arc, Dublin does not plan to add a single new location served by rail (LUAS, metro or DART) for at least 22 (twenty-two) years.

CatInABox

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, precisely.

Within that arc, Dublin does not plan to add a single new location served by rail (LUAS, metro or DART) for at least 22 (twenty-two) years.

Hardly surprising. Up until recently, there was no concrete plans for ANY new rail station in Dublin, never mind the southwest corridor. The NTA are an organisation with a finite capacity. They simply can't do it all at once.

One of the problem that the southwest corridor has is that it is not going to get significantly worse. There's no major developments in the pipeline along that route. It's bad now, of course, there's no denying that, but traffic volumes aren't suddenly going to shoot through the roof. Compare that to the Green Line Luas route, where there's numerous major developments along the route.

tom1ie

CatInABox wrote: »

Hardly surprising. Up until recently, there was no concrete plans for ANY new rail station in Dublin, never mind the southwest corridor. The NTA are an organisation with a finite capacity. They simply can't do it all at once.

One of the problem that the southwest corridor has is that it is not going to get significantly worse. There's no major developments in the pipeline along that route. It's bad now, of course, there's no denying that, but traffic volumes aren't suddenly going to shoot through the roof. Compare that to the Green Line Luas route, where there's numerous major developments along the route.

Stocking lane, multiple developments in tallaght, developments at the back of scholarstown road and ballyboden way feed into the sw corridor, ie n81 up into templeogue and terenure. These are to name but a few. There is plenty of development in this area. Even as far in as sun drive and the inn in the park at Harold’s x.

tom1ie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Doesn't bus connects cover all major corridors in Dublin? Are you saying the NTA will never build rail again after ML?

I didn’t properly phrase that last post. What I meant was after the nta get a good bashing from the residents in the sw corridor as they don’t want to give up there front gardens, the nta will run a mile from metro sw.
What I’m saying is it’ll be easier to build a metro with strategically placed stations (eg in the rathfarnham stop on the outskirts of rathfarnham castle park. Plenty of integration with busses. Firhouse stop on green area of stocking lane etc etc) and then just run the tbm from ssg, where it’ll be already in the ground out to firhouse.

Bray Head

SW Corridor is pretty high density by Dublin standards, at least as far as Terenure. No golf courses, no big parks, very few playing pitches, houses with relatively small gardens. One downside is no major trip generator in the form of a hospital, university, big shopping centre or business park. But there is a lot of housing.

See also image. The density along this spine is as high as the Green luas line. This really should be the next piece of underground rail in Dublin.