Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

Sam Russell

@brayhead
Your image does not display correctly - or at all.

bk

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes and if a sub standard bus connects is delivered to Dublin sw which has very little impact on journey times then metro 2 won’t be delivered as the nta will play the, well we’ve already put resources and funds into that corridor, card.
By contrast I’m pretty sure 6 or 7 sites that won’t involve major cpo activity, (unlike bus connects) for stations, can be found from ssg to knocklyon.

With respect tom1ie, you have been listening to LXFlyer too much! You seem to have convinced yourself that BusConnects won't work through the SW corridor. But there is simply no evidence to support that.

6 or 7 Metro sites will absolutely require extensive CPOing of peoples homes through that area. It would simply be impossible not to be given the nature of the area. Your kidding yourself if you don't think it wouldn't face significant opposition.

Also you would have national level opposition to a 3b Metro project growing to a 4.5 to 5bn project. It just simply wouldn't be accepted and would likely kill the whole project.

Is that honestly what you want, to kill Metro in Dublin?

tom1ie wrote: »

Sw is such a mature developed area yet at the same time your saying sw dosent have the density to support a metro (maybe not you bk but a previous poster maybe). Spaces for stations will be easier to find on a sw route than the space required for the gl tie in especially at charlemount. Beechwood won’t be too easy nor milltown.

SW definitely has the density to support Metro. That isn't the point.

The point is that it is already a mature and well developed area. There is no major property developments planned for this area and little space for it.

We are currently facing a housing crisis and the priority for the moment is to build infrastructure to areas with the highest potential for property development. To SDZ's.

There is little or no potential for new housing on the SW corridor. I know you will say Stocking Lane, but it really isn't a significant site. All you need to do is look at Google Maps with terrain turned on and you will easily see it is right at the base of the Dublin Mountains, little space there. Then go look at the Luas Green line and look at the area it will likely be extended through to Bray and you will see it has vastly more development potential. If you look at Google Maps it really is very obvious.

Now I do agree that already well developed areas like SW and NE also deserve to get high quality public transport. But it clearly isn't a priority over opening up new areas.

Sorry, I know you don't want to hear that. But it is just the reality.

tom1ie

bk wrote: »

With respect tom1ie, you have been listening to LXFlyer too much! You seem to have convinced yourself that BusConnects won't work through the SW corridor. But there is simply no evidence to support that.

6 or 7 Metro sites will absolutely require extensive CPOing of peoples homes through that area. It would simply be impossible not to be given the nature of the area. Your kidding yourself if you don't think it wouldn't face significant opposition.

Also you would have national level opposition to a 3b Metro project growing to a 4.5 to 5bn project. It just simply wouldn't be accepted and would likely kill the whole project.

Is that honestly what you want, to kill Metro in Dublin?



SW definitely has the density to support Metro. That isn't the point.

The point is that it is already a mature and well developed area. There is no major property developments planned for this area and little space for it.

We are currently facing a housing crisis and the priority for the moment is to build infrastructure to areas with the highest potential for property development. To SDZ's.

There is little or no potential for new housing on the SW corridor. I know you will say Stocking Lane, but it really isn't a significant site. All you need to do is look at Google Maps with terrain turned on and you will easily see it is right at the base of the Dublin Mountains, little space there. Then go look at the Luas Green line and look at the area it will likely be extended through to Bray and you will see it has vastly more development potential. If you look at Google Maps it really is very obvious.

Now I do agree that already well developed areas like SW and NE also deserve to get high quality public transport. But it clearly isn't a priority over opening up new areas.

Sorry, I know you don't want to hear that. But it is just the reality.

With respect bk if you look at my previous posts in the bus connects forum you will see I made my mind up about bus connects regardless of anyone else’s point of view. The dogs in the street can see that bus connects is a non runner for the sw corridor.

There are sites on the sw corridor that would not require the cpo and demolition of homes for station. I listed two already. Saying otherwise is scaremongering.

How do you know the extra money simply wouldn’t be accepted? Maybe people will see this as a more inclusive plan for a much bigger area of Dublin. It would certainly gain more political backing. It’s your point of view that says it wouldn’t be accepted.
Of course I don’t want to kill metrolink. I want a system that is inclusive and that means providing rail pt to areas that don’t have it as opposed to providing it to areas that already have 2 rail lines (dart and gl) plus a very good bus service already and a planned brt route.

I listed more areas than stocking lane which you have conveniently overlooked. There are many more. Although I agree there is a bigger scope for housing on the green line. However as I have said previous this housing will be served by,
Gl
Brt (bus connects)
Dart.
Massive amounts of housing will be opened up in north county Dublin so your argument about the sw corridor not having housing potential doesn’t really matter as there will be lots of housing potential delivered by metrolink as a whole anyway.

Your correct sw does deserve to get high quality public transport. I’m glad your finally coming around to my way of thinking. :pac:

marno21

tom1ie wrote: »

Your correct sw does deserve to get high quality public transport. I’m glad your finally coming around to my way of thinking. :pac:

I don't think anyone is doubting this. What we are saying is:

1. Decent public transport for the SW should not come at an expense to exising proposed public transport solutions

2. The best way of achieving decent PT for the SW in the short/medium term is using the bus as the NTA have no intention of building more than one Metro between now and 2035. There is already enough of a struggle with the existing Metro. It's an awful cost and there isn't really scope to do more than one Metro at once

The NTA are proposing the following between 2016 and 2035:

DART Expansion to Drogheda, Hazelhatch and Maynooth, and along the PPT line with additional stations (before 2027)
DART Expansion with interconnector tunnel on as of yet undecided route (after 2027)
Metro North + Metro South (Metrolink) Swords-Sandyford (before 2027)
Luas expansions to Finglas, Bray, Poolbeg and Lucan (after 2027)
Significantly improved bus services along 16 core radial corridors and several orbital routes (before 2027)

If all of the above gets done, we will have a significantly improved public transport network. We can't do everything in the short/medium term, and if we can manage to achieve the above, including schemes which have been dragging on for years, we will have something to appreciate. We can build more Metros etc after that.

tom1ie

marno21 wrote: »

I don't think anyone is doubting this. What we are saying is:

1. Decent public transport for the SW should not come at an expense to exising proposed public transport solutions

2. The best way of achieving decent PT for the SW in the short/medium term is using the bus as the NTA have no intention of building more than one Metro between now and 2035. There is already enough of a struggle with the existing Metro. It's an awful cost and there isn't really scope to do more than one Metro at once

The NTA are proposing the following between 2016 and 2035:

DART Expansion to Drogheda, Hazelhatch and Maynooth, and along the PPT line with additional stations (before 2027)
DART Expansion with interconnector tunnel on as of yet undecided route (after 2027)
Metro North + Metro South (Metrolink) Swords-Sandyford (before 2027)
Luas expansions to Finglas, Bray, Poolbeg and Lucan (after 2027)
Significantly improved bus services along 16 core radial corridors and several orbital routes (before 2027)

If all of the above gets done, we will have a significantly improved public transport network. We can't do everything in the short/medium term, and if we can manage to achieve the above, including schemes which have been dragging on for years, we will have something to appreciate. We can build more Metros etc after that.

I understand this plan, I really do and I agree with the vast majority of it. However I just can’t envisage bus connects making a difference to the sw, routes 10, 11, 12 will be completely watered down and traffic restrictions in certain areas will just not work.
Luas to Lucan is a waste of time and money. This is an area bus connects will work. Save the money on the Lucan Luas, save the money on routes 10,11,12, borrow extra money from Europe at the historically low rates and bring the tunnel sw.
I can’t see myself budging on this one, but I will say I really just hope some form of metro system is built for Dublin. We need it badly.

Sam Russell

If the tunnel were to go SW, where would it surface? Is there an adequate corridor that could accommodate the Metro II above ground?

You could plan for a station every km, but better if they are on the surface.

CatInABox

My main problem with changing the route from the Green Line Luas to the south west corridor is that it's simply not possible in the time frame that all of us would want. Sending the NTA back to the drawing board on the southern portion of the project isn't a three or four month delay, it's a three or four year delay, or more. In that time, the NTA might not prioritise the Metro project, as they'll have the Dart Expansion to do, and it's entirely possible that they could refocus their planning on the Dart Underground.

It's entirely possible that a three year delay to the Metro may knock it further back in terms of planning than the Dart Underground, in which case they'll have to make a choice, progress with Metro North and get the plans back out in four years, or progress with Dart Underground, which they could get out in a much shorter time.

Everybody gets that the south west corridor needs a metro, or at least some form of majorly improved public transport, but delaying a project that is very advanced and also much needed, is just not the way to do it.

strassenwo!f

It makes sense to use the northside part of the metrolink proposal to try to start to enhance development of southside areas which don't currently have a LUAS or metro, and for which it has been determined that no LUAS line is feasible. Walkinstown, Harold's Cross, Rathmines, Terenure, etc.

The main issue with Dublin's Green line is that it has no competition, unlike in other developed cities (transport-wise) where people have a choice which service to use, and it is thus under some pressure.

The obvious, and relatively easy, thing to do would be to build a competing metro line along the N11, which would reduce the pressure on the Green line but would be a political disaster. So that's not going to happen any time soon.

Realistically, the northside metro should continue to the southwest, introducing new areas to a rapid direct connection with the city, while making sure that important areas like Cherrywood retain that direct connection.

Kellyconor1982

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Metro

Interesting how even Panama City have longstanding goals of increasing their lines.

I can see both sides of the argument re doing the green line first and having one proper metro line built along their current plans or making changes to the first line having it going sw before then doing the green line as to their current plans down the line.

However, there simply needs to be some kind of timeline given even if it is metro lines being built in the 2040s.

I would be happy if by 2040-2045 we had the metro 1 (green line), metro 2 going sw towards tallaght through rathmines, terenure, rathfarnham, knocklyon and on to tallaght and the dart underground built with an expansion of the luas network.

By 2050, it should be a target to build a metro 3 going orbital around the city akin to the original metro west and look at further possibilities for metro lines.

Crazy talking about such timeframes but this is Ireland and nothing happens fast.

strassenwo!f

It is still very unclear how much money will need to be spent upgrading the LUAS green line in the area south of the canal to a metro, if that is indeed what happens with this proposal.

Hopefully, there will be some properly costed analysis of what would be involved in starting a metro line to the southwest of the city, say to Rathmines or Rathgar, and/or Harold's Cross. Such a line or lines would make a very big difference to areas which don't currently have such a service. Gradual extensions over the years would transform other suburbs of Dublin.

I see many negatives with the current proposal, and few positives for the whole city. Cherrywood currently has a direct service to/from the city and to/from major locations like Grangegorman. Under this new plan, there will be no direct service to/from either of those locations.

To the city the journey will involve a trip on the rump LUAS, then a change at Sandyford. A change, where currently there is none.

To Grangegorman it will involve a journey on the rump LUAS to Sandyford, a trip on the metro, and then a change again back onto the LUAS at somewhere like Charlemont. Two changes, where currently there is none.

How is any of this an improvement, when the proposed 'metro' in the interim section is not going to be noticeably faster than the current LUAS?

There has been no proper assessment of the possibility of running increased numbers of trams along the LUAS Green line. We know that there are going to be increased numbers of the longer trams, which will certainly increase the capacity, and an increase of tram throughput from an average of every 4 minutes (currently) to an average of every 3 minutes would increase capacity by 25%, negating the need for a Green line upgrade for many years.

Efficient use of the expensive tunnel boring machine(s) also needs to be considered, and it is hard to see how this would happen by connecting to a line which is already functioning very well, at Charlemont Bridge, rather than being utilised to deliver high quality public transport to areas of the city which don't currently have this.

antoinolachtnai

There is an obvious enough way to guess a basic costing to build a second underground metro similar in length to the northern part of the metro. It will cost about the same as the northern part of the metro, somewhere between 2 and 3 billion.

I don't think you are right about speed from beloved Cherrywood to Grangegorman. It will be appreciably faster, especially when the traffic is heavy. You will skip the heavy traffic in the city centre.

I think the possibility of increasing numbers on the Luas has been done to death. NTA claim they can put 8000 people per direction per hour on the line. In practice, I don't think this is really possible. There is just too much contention with traffic.

Why couldn't the TBM stay in the ground at Charlemont and go on toward Rathmines or Crumlin or whatever you want as well as linking to the Green Line?

marno21

Is it groundhog day in here?

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It is still very unclear how much money will need to be spent upgrading the LUAS green line in the area south of the canal to a metro, if that is indeed what happens with this proposal.

Hopefully, there will be some properly costed analysis of what would be involved in starting a metro line to the southwest of the city, say to Rathmines or Rathgar, and/or Harold's Cross. Such a line or lines would make a very big difference to areas which don't currently have such a service. Gradual extensions over the years would transform other suburbs of Dublin.

I see many negatives with the current proposal, and few positives for the whole city. Cherrywood currently has a direct service to/from the city and to/from major locations like Grangegorman. Under this new plan, there will be no direct service to/from either of those locations.

To the city the journey will involve a trip on the rump LUAS, then a change at Sandyford. A change, where currently there is none.

To Grangegorman it will involve a journey on the rump LUAS to Sandyford, a trip on the metro, and then a change again back onto the LUAS at somewhere like Charlemont. Two changes, where currently there is none.

How is any of this an improvement, when the proposed 'metro' in the interim section is not going to be noticeably faster than the current LUAS?

There has been no proper assessment of the possibility of running increased numbers of trams along the LUAS Green line. We know that there are going to be increased numbers of the longer trams, which will certainly increase the capacity, and an increase of tram throughput from an average of every 4 minutes (currently) to an average of every 3 minutes would increase capacity by 25%, negating the need for a Green line upgrade for many years.

Efficient use of the expensive tunnel boring machine(s) also needs to be considered, and it is hard to see how this would happen by connecting to a line which is already functioning very well, at Charlemont Bridge, rather than being utilised to deliver high quality public transport to areas of the city which don't currently have this.

The costings for the Green Line upgrade are in the Metrolink documentation

There will be no costed analysis of a SW Metro. It's not in policy and will not be considered while this remains the case.

Cherrywood will instead gain access to the airport, the DART lines, parts of North Dublin, and the city centre via something that isn't a pathetic trundling tram

Why should the light rail network in Dublin be dictated by a minority of people travelling from Cherrywood to Grangegorman?

The capacity improvement is one major difference, who wants to be on a jam packed tram?

The street sections of the Green Line are at capacity, the old Harcourt Line element isn't. Incorportaing the old Harcourt Line element in a higher capacity system makes sense.

"negating the need for a Green line upgrade for many years" & "which is already functioning very well"

This upgrade will be complete in 2027. At that stage it will be pretty evident why it's being done.

Sam Russell

strassenwo!f wrote: »

To the city the journey will involve a trip on the rump LUAS, then a change at Sandyford. A change, where currently there is none.

To Grangegorman it will involve a journey on the rump LUAS to Sandyford, a trip on the metro, and then a change again back onto the LUAS at somewhere like Charlemont. Two changes, where currently there is none.

How is any of this an improvement, when the proposed 'metro' in the interim section is not going to be noticeably faster than the current LUAS?

Why this fascination with a trip from Cherrywood to Grangegorman? I do not think it is a likely journey for a large number of passengers, but let us look at it.

1. Changing at Sandyford will be a seamless 'cross the platform - you carriage awaits' change causing little to no delay. The Metro will be quicker through the network than the tram, particularly in the CC.

2. Have you looked at access to Grangegorman? It is equidistant from three Metrolink stations as it is from the current nearest Luas stop, so stay on the Metro and get off at the most appropriate stop. Grangegorman is a huge campus.

This nonsense journey was cited by Michael McDowell who wants to run in the next GE and is stirring up the locals with fake news and his own facts, in true populist fashion.

Many of the issues you raise are spurious nonsense. There is no way a SW Metro will be proposed, designed or costed until the construction of Metrolink is well under way. An extension to Donabate will occur first, as will Busconnect.

salmocab

The SW spur only exists on this thread really, I’m pretty sure that there has been no real official talk of it beyond some politicians suggesting it instead of the green line upgrade as part of a let’s build it differently but in a way that is politically advantageous to me and my set of crayons.

Alvin Holler

Sam Russell wrote: »

2. Have you looked at access to Grangegorman? It is equidistant from three Metrolink stations as it is from the current nearest Luas stop, so stay on the Metro and get off at the most appropriate stop. Grangegorman is a huge campus.

While I agree that metrolink would more than likely offer a better service to Grangegorman due to more frequent service and considerably faster from Charlemont to O'Connell St, you're incorrect about metro link being as close as the Luas. DIT Broadstone and Grangegorman are the two Luas stops right beside where the major development is taking place.

It's about a 10min walk from the proposed Mater stop to Broadstone, 15 to Grangegorman. Not site what other metrolink stations you think are options, you could walk from O'Connell St. It'd probably be 15 mins to Broadstone.

So for the handful of people who would be travelling from Cherrywood to Grangegorman, you'd switch at Sandyford and O'Connell St.

Sam Russell

Alvin Holler wrote: »

While I agree that metrolink would more than likely offer a better service to Grangegorman due to more frequent service and considerably faster from Charlemont to O'Connell St, you're incorrect about metro link being as close as the Luas. DIT Broadstone and Grangegorman are the two Luas stops right beside where the major development is taking place.

It's about a 10min walk from the proposed Mater stop to Broadstone, 15 to Grangegorman. Not site what other metrolink stations you think are options, you could walk from O'Connell St. It'd probably be 15 mins to Broadstone.

So for the handful of people who would be travelling from Cherrywood to Grangegorman, you'd switch at Sandyford and O'Connell St.

Well, according to Google, the time to walk from Whitworth Rd to DIT is 19 mins, and to walk from Broadstone Luas stop is 19 min, and from Grangegorman Luas stop is 21 mins. Now maybe there are or will be short cut routes for pedestrians, but not according to Google maps.

It would be quicker to get off the Metrolink at Whitworth and walk.

strassenwo!f

I would like to respond to all of the earlier comments related to my post on the previous page, but I do not wish to dominate the discussion. However, one comment, by the poster marno21, stands out as being particularly obnoxious, namely his reference to the LUAS Green line as 'a pathetic, trundly tram'.

A lot of money was spend on building this tram line, another load of money was spent on extending it to Cherrywood, and another great deal of money was spent on extending it across the city to Broadstone.

It has made a major difference to the city.

While it is not as fantastic as either marno21 or I would like, it is my opinion that enough money has been invested, for the moment, in that corridor. Other options, like increasing tram throughput, need to be looked at.

But other important southside corridors which would benefit from a trundly tram have been identified as corridors where a trundly tram is not an option. It is clear that only a metro is feasible, if the country wishes to eventually reduce the shocking travel times between the city and suburbs in the southwest along those corridors.

As I said above, a lot of money has been invested in the tram line between Broadstone and Cherrywood, and that should be fine for the moment, with small extra additions like more trams on the line.

It would make sense to me if this new corridor on the northside (the airport and Swords) were to be linked with (an) entirely new corridor(s) on the southside, to deliver rapid public transport to whole new areas which can't realistically be served by pathetic, trundly trams.

Alvin Holler

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, according to Google, the time to walk from Whitworth Rd to DIT is 19 mins, and to walk from Broadstone Luas stop is 19 min, and from Grangegorman Luas stop is 21 mins. Now maybe there are or will be short cut routes for pedestrians, but not according to Google maps.

It would be quicker to get off the Metrolink at Whitworth and walk.

Ha, never rely on Google maps. Just looked at it there and the route from Grangegorman is wrong, it's across the road from the current DIT buildings so a lazy 2 minute walk rather than 21. You can't actually walk the way Google send you.

The buildings near the Broadstone stop are currently under construction so the long walk Google send you on now is technically correct. Although as the stop is called DIT Broadstone, this will be zero minutes walk from DIT.

Dats me

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I would like to respond to all of the earlier comments related to my post on the previous page, but I do not wish to dominate the discussion. However, one comment, by the poster marno21, stands out as being particularly obnoxious, namely his reference to the LUAS Green line as 'a pathetic, trundly tram'.

A lot of money was spend on building this tram line, another load of money was spent on extending it to Cherrywood, and another great deal of money was spent on extending it across the city to Broadstone.

It has made a major difference to the city.

While it is not as fantastic as either marno21 or I would like, it is my opinion that enough money has been invested, for the moment, in that corridor. Other options, like increasing tram throughput, need to be looked at.

But other important southside corridors which would benefit from a trundly tram have been identified as corridors where a trundly tram is not an option. It is clear that only a metro is feasible, if the country wishes to eventually reduce the shocking travel times between the city and suburbs in the southwest along those corridors.

As I said above, a lot of money has been invested in the tram line between Broadstone and Cherrywood, and that should be fine for the moment, with small extra additions like more trams on the line.

It would make sense to me if this new corridor on the northside (the airport and Swords) were to be linked with (an) entirely new corridor(s) on the southside, to deliver rapid public transport to whole new areas which can't realistically be served by pathetic, trundly trams.

Strassenwolf, you've been at this for months.



With green line demand due to reach 11,000 passengers per direction per hour in the next couple of decades (Metrolink is 9 years away, if everything goes smoothly and the likes of you don't get your wish in sending it back to planning) and 13,000 by 2057, withLuas capacity locked at 8,000 (and that's with all trams upgraded to 55m), PLEASE outline how the capacity can be sufficiently increased (the line now runs through the city centre, and trams are already running as often is possible through this portion) without upgrade to Metro standard.


This is all laid out in the introduction to the public consultation document: http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/metrolink-nta-tii-public-consultation-document.pdf.


Read up on what you're posting about before calling mods "obnoxious".

marno21

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I would like to respond to all of the earlier comments related to my post on the previous page, but I do not wish to dominate the discussion. However, one comment, by the poster marno21, stands out as being particularly obnoxious, namely his reference to the LUAS Green line as 'a pathetic, trundly tram'.

A lot of money was spend on building this tram line, another load of money was spent on extending it to Cherrywood, and another great deal of money was spent on extending it across the city to Broadstone.

It has made a major difference to the city.

While it is not as fantastic as either marno21 or I would like, it is my opinion that enough money has been invested, for the moment, in that corridor. Other options, like increasing tram throughput, need to be looked at.

But other important southside corridors which would benefit from a trundly tram have been identified as corridors where a trundly tram is not an option. It is clear that only a metro is feasible, if the country wishes to eventually reduce the shocking travel times between the city and suburbs in the southwest along those corridors.

As I said above, a lot of money has been invested in the tram line between Broadstone and Cherrywood, and that should be fine for the moment, with small extra additions like more trams on the line.

It would make sense to me if this new corridor on the northside (the airport and Swords) were to be linked with (an) entirely new corridor(s) on the southside, to deliver rapid public transport to whole new areas which can't realistically be served by pathetic, trundly trams.

I did not describe the Green Line as a pathetic trundly tram, I described the Cross City section as a pathetic trundly tram, particularly the part from Harcourt Street to Broadstone. That section is a totally inappropriate solution to an issue that needs addressing.

Luas Cross City was the straw that broke the camels back when it came to half baked solutions to transport issues in Dublin.

strassenwo!f

This was the entire post:

marno21 wrote: »

Is it groundhog day in here?

The costings for the Green Line upgrade are in the Metrolink documentation

There will be no costed analysis of a SW Metro. It's not in policy and will not be considered while this remains the case.

Cherrywood will instead gain access to the airport, the DART lines, parts of North Dublin, and the city centre via something that isn't a pathetic trundling tram

Why should the light rail network in Dublin be dictated by a minority of people travelling from Cherrywood to Grangegorman?

The capacity improvement is one major difference, who wants to be on a jam packed tram?

The street sections of the Green Line are at capacity, the old Harcourt Line element isn't. Incorportaing the old Harcourt Line element in a higher capacity system makes sense

"negating the need for a Green line upgrade for many years" & "which is already functioning very well"

This upgrade will be complete in 2027. At that stage it will be pretty evident why it's being done.

The most relevant part is this:

marno21 wrote: »

Cherrywood will instead gain access to the airport, the DART lines, parts of North Dublin, and the city centre via something that isn't a pathetic trundling tram

At present, the connection between Cherrywood and the city centre is most efficiently made by the LUAS Green line.

It seemed to me, based on the post, that you were referring to that Cherrywood - city centre connection as a 'pathetic trundling tram'. There was no indication that you were only referring to the new city centre section.

By the by, you should also remember that a direct service to the airport is irrelevant. Almost nobody on the Southside is travelling to the airport on a daily basis, so a direct connection from any area on the southside to the airport is not important. You'd like to eventually have a one-change network where a public transport user on the southside could get to the airport with one change, or maybe none if they're lucky, but it is certainly not an important factor in the planning of this stuff. Or, at least, you'd hope it's not.

In my opinion, enough money has been invested in the Broombridge - Cherrywood corridor for the moment, what with the initial LUAS, the extension to Cherrywood, and then the cross-city LUAS line to Broadstone.

That corridor is still not yet perfect, I know, but there is a fairly decent plan to build a metro from Swords to the city along an entirely new northside route. It needs a tweak, or maybe two, to make it really good, and I believe the opportunity should be grasped to have that line make a very big difference to areas of the southside which don't yet have rapid rail.

antoinolachtnai

This would be great if you were putting forward an alternative plan to build a metro in South Dublin for less than the cost of the upgrade of the Green Line to Sandyford to metro grade.

But you aren't.

Nothing about Metrolink precludes keeping the TBM underground at Charlemont and heading towards the southwest.

PS: You will get faster to almost any destination north of St Stephen's Green Cherrywood post metrolink. You will gain more time by avoiding traffic than you will lose from changing from tram to train.

marno21

I have repeatedly said everything I need to say on this issue but I will re-emphasise:

strassenwo!f wrote: »

In my opinion, enough money has been invested in the Broombridge - Cherrywood corridor for the moment, what with the initial LUAS, the extension to Cherrywood, and then the cross-city LUAS line to Broadstone.

The Metrolink upgrade of Charlemont-Sandyford is to deal with the capacity requirements that will be needed for when the scheme opens in 2027. Not building a required upgrade planned for 9 years time because everything is ok now is the type of shortsightedness we are trying to move away from.

strassenwo!f

Dats me wrote: »

With green line demand due to reach 11,000 passengers per direction per hour in the next couple of decades (Metrolink is 9 years away, if everything goes smoothly and the likes of you don't get your wish in sending it back to planning) and 13,000 by 2057, withLuas capacity locked at 8,000 (and that's with all trams upgraded to 55m), PLEASE outline how the capacity can be sufficiently increased (the line now runs through the city centre, and trams are already running as often is possible through this portion) without upgrade to Metro standard.

As I have mentioned before on this thread, there are many cities which have a higher throughput in particular areas than the 15 trams per hour (tph) in each direction currently being managed in Dublin on the Green Line.

One nice example would be Berlin, which has a well-developed tram network (mainly in what used to be East Berlin), where there are several sections where different lines share track, and throughputs are quite high.

Many of these are out in the suburbs, but a useful section to look at would be the bit between Landsberger Allee and Hackescher Markt, which goes via Alexanderplatz (pretty much the heart of the old DDR capital). Although Berlin as a whole has a slightly lower population density than Dublin, this bit of track runs through areas with densities as high as 15,000 people per sq. km. It's very central.

This section of track runs at street level through 10 stops - with each stop served by 3 tram numbers - and there are several places (perhaps a dozen?) where it has a junction with other traffic. Nevertheless, the throughput on that section, at peak times, is around 36 tph in each direction.

In Dublin, the best that currently seems to be manageable is 15 trams per hour in each direction, through a broadly similar landscape. And Dublin's only dealing with one line, so drivers don't need to be aware of what's going on on other tram lines as they enter that central section.

Why is it that in Berlin they can have a throughput of 36 tph on a central section shared by several lines, and in Dublin a throughput of 15 tph on just one line through a central section prompts cries of "Oh, it's so busy, we must upgrade to a metro"?

Increasing the throughput of the LUAS Green line in Dublin from 15 tph to 20 tph - still very comfortably below the tram throughputs being achieved in other cities, as illustrated above - would automatically increase the capacity of the line by 33%.

strassenwo!f

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

This would be great if you were putting forward an alternative plan to build a metro in South Dublin for less than the cost of the upgrade of the Green Line to Sandyford to metro grade.

But you aren't.

I hope I have made it pretty clear, in my posts on this thread, that Dublin needs to look very carefully at whether it wants to pile more investment into just one southside corridor, or to invest in other southside areas.

One of Dublin's major issues is traffic, and you can certainly say goodbye to anybody from Knocklyon, Terenure, Harold's Cross or Rathfarnham getting out of their car and onto a bus over the next 30-40 years - in other words their entire working lives - with the current proposal.

Dats me wrote: »

Nothing about Metrolink precludes keeping the TBM underground at Charlemont and heading towards the southwest.

But why waste money sending the TBM to Charlemont? As I showed in the post above, there seems no reason why the Green Line shouldn't continue, as is, for the moment.

Why not, when the TBM gets to St. Stephen's Green or thereabouts, engage it directly in its task of building directly to Harold's Cross or Rathmines?

Dats me wrote: »

PS: You will get faster to almost any destination north of St Stephen's Green Cherrywood post metrolink. You will gain more time by avoiding traffic than you will lose from changing from tram to train.

Yes, but you won't be reducing journey times for anybody else on the southside.

You'll be gaining more time, but people unserved by metro or LUAS won't be.

The punter on the LUAS Green Line will get there faster. The punter in Rathmines, Terenure, Harold's Cross and other southside areas will have to wait to 2057 for that to even to begin to happen.

I presume that's what you want, but is that what the Government of Ireland should be forking out for?

marno21

Journey times in Cork are as relevant to the Metrolink project as journey times to Terenure and Harolds Cross

The Metrolink project concentrates on a solution for the Swords-Airport-City Centre-Sandyford corridor. Anything else is outside the scope of the project.

Dats me

They are already running 20tph (every 3 minutes) if you think running any more trams through the city-centre portion is possible, you clearly haven't seen it in action.

Nice tangent about East Berlin though, I'm very happy for them.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

Journey times in Cork are as relevant to the Metrolink project as journey times to Terenure and Harolds Cross

The Metrolink project concentrates on a solution for the Swords-Airport-City Centre-Sandyford corridor. Anything else is outside the scope of the project.

Totally agree Marno, but this is the "alternate route" thread, if we can't break out the crayons here, where can we?

I don't agree with Strassenwolf at all, I think the only show in town is the corridor as proposed, but I'd prefer all this fantasy stuff to be here rather than in the main thread.

strassenwo!f

marno21 wrote: »

Journey times in Cork are as relevant to the Metrolink project as journey times to Terenure and Harolds Cross

The Metrolink project concentrates on a solution for the Swords-Airport-City Centre-Sandyford corridor. Anything else is outside the scope of the project.

Marno, we have to see if it's appropriate to devote money to improving a line which is already good, and which can be improved as illustrated above, over spending money on working on a new strategy.

strassenwo!f

Dats me wrote: »

They are already running 20tph (every 3 minutes) if you think running any more trams through the city-centre portion is possible, you clearly haven't seen it in action.

Nice tangent about East Berlin though, I'm very happy for them.

Well, they are doing that in Berlin. If Dublin were to run 20tph it would be slightly over half over what is being doing in that city. They're doing it. With 36 tph they're doing it. With 15 tph, Ireland is crying out for an upgrade to a metro.