Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

bk

And looking at that street where the trams merge in Karlsruhe, it is a very nice wide street, similar to O'Connell St and it seems to have three tram tracks on it, not just two. Though it looks like part of the triple track has now been removed to build the stations for the Metro (big holes in the ground on Google Maps).

Also it is interesting to note, that cars can't cross the tracks anywhere along this street, nor can taxis or buses.

strassenwo!f

Dats me wrote: »

Very fair, even if it was happening you can't compare non-segregated systems very usefully. It also seems as if it very probably isn't even happening in Berlin.

.

Check their website. It's happening

strassenwo!f

bk wrote: »

Wow I just looked at the article about Berlin and lots wrong with it:

http://www.lrta.org/TramForward/Topic5TFs.pdf

First of all it isn't about Berlin as you claim, it is about Karlsruhe, so again wrong there.

I didn't, at any stage, claim, state or imply that the article was about Berlin.

bk wrote: »

Also the people writing are a non-profit organisation in the UK looking to promote light rail, which is fantastic of course, more power to them, but it doesn't make them experts and it doesn't mean they can't exaggerate.

Here is the quote you are on about:



Note, this is very different to the Luas, this is 6 separate lines that happen to meet in the city center long one or two streets and then diverge again.

The frequency of each of these individual lines is just 10 minutes or 6 TPH. WAY lower then the Luas lines 24 TPH. The Luas Green Line has VASTLY more capacity then any of these individual lines.

There is a world of difference between running a tram at 36TPH along one or two streets slowly and then running at just 6 TPH along their rest of their route versus trying to run a tram at 36TPH along an entire route. They aren't at all comparable.

Yes, many cities with trams have developed several tram lines which meet in the centre. The tram lines compete with each other. Dublin hasn't done that.

bk wrote: »

As the Metrolink report clearly points out, the limitation is at the two at grade junctions at Dunville Avenue, etc. That is no surprise to anyone who follows transport infrastructure. Junctions are what limit the frequency and throughput of any system. It is the same reason why the NTA/Irish Rail wanted to close Merrion Gates and want to close other crossings on the Maynooth line, etc

Yes, the normal situation is that there are several lines which converge in the centre and share track. Dublin's failure to invest in quality public transport, and the fact that there is no suitable LUAS route to the southwest of the city, mean that all the eggs are put into one basket, namely the LUAS Green line.

bk wrote: »

24 TPH is a pretty incredible frequency for a single line and really it is at the extreme edge of what can be done with non-segregated junctions. I mean just look at Karlsruhe, their trams run at just a very low 6 TPH!

The situation with the Green Line is clearly not ideal. But it is what Dublin has got, and Dublin needs to sweat the Green Line a bit more before it needs to go underground.

bk wrote: »

BTW interestingly they are building a tunnel in Karlsruhe in the city center now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Karlsruhe

LOL yet another example of a tram line reaching capacity and being turned into an underground!!

Yes, of course In Karlsruhe they've covered most of the city with trams. Dublin hasn't.

strassenwo!f

I think there would be a lot to be gained by building an Adelaide Road - Wilton Place spur off the Green Line, particularly at peak times.

It might require demolition of that derelict house at the corner of Peter Place and Adelaide Road, but apart from that I can't see any other obstacles. The gradients at the junction with Leeson Street might be a problem, as might the iconic kiosk.

Wilton Place would be a tremendous location for a terminus, or an interim terminus, for many people. All the offices on Baggot Street upper and lower, Mespil Road, Burlington Road, Fitzwilliam Square, etc., would become much closer to rail transport than the current options of the Lansdowne Road DART station or the St. Stephen's Green LUAS. On Wilton Place itself there's almost nothing, and effectively no traffic (so construction there should not discommode anyone), but it is very close to the busy areas mentioned above.

If it were possible to build such a line, there might even be a case for running direct services between Broombridge and Wilton Place, using the current infrastructure and the suggested spur.

salmocab

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I am not a well-travelled person, but I've been in several cities in Europe where they are currently running well beyond the 20 tph that is currently being done on the Green line. One city which I do know reasonably well is Berlin - though I don't live in Germany - and they run 36 trams per hour, at peak times, along the very central section between Landsberger Allee and Hackescher Markt, with several (perhaps a dozen?) road crossings.


They're doing 36 tph

Berlin is not Dublin, you can’t compare two cities that aren’t built or developed the same. The section in Berlin that you claim takes 36 per direction per hour is almost definitely not the same road layout as harcourt street to phibsborough.

strassenwo!f

salmocab wrote: »

Berlin is not Dublin, you can’t compare two cities that aren’t built or developed the same.

You're entirely right. And I'm not saying they're the same. Most of the trams in Berlin are in the former East Berlin, but they've been in western Europe for nigh on 30 years now. They're running 36 tph now, as they probably did in the old GDR. But Berlin was the city I chose, because I happen to know the city reasonably well. Other cities in western Europe are achieving the same throughputs.

And, please remember, I'm not suggesting that Dublin should run 36 tph along any corridor. 27.5 tph along the Green Line should keep the system ahead of the metrolink projections for passenger demand until 2037, and 30 tph should keep it ahead of passenger demand until 2047. At that point, it would probably make sense to upgrade it to a metro.

I'd very much like if Ireland had the money to do all of this a lot sooner, and have two north-south metro lines, and the DART and Red LUAS, covering much of Dublin. Unfortunately, Ireland doesn't have that cash, so it is important to spend it wisely. While there is still much to be gained from the LUAS Green line, as the LUAS Green line, I feel it would be a mistake to upgrade it.

salmocab wrote: »

The section in Berlin that you claim takes 36 per direction per hour is almost definitely not the same road layout as harcourt street to phibsborough.

First of all, I'm not 'claiming' that there are 36 tph along that section in Berlin. There are 36 trams running in each direction along that section per hour. Several other cities in western Europe have similar throughputs.

Check the website for any of those tram stops in Berlin if you still doubt me.

Secondly, it is obvious that the two cities don't have the same layouts. One of the reasons why I'm not suggesting a tram every two minutes across O'Connell Bridge is that Dublin doesn't have a very developed rail transport system, while by and large other western European cities now do.

That's why I'm suggesting a spur to Wilton Place, or use of the siding in Saint Stephen's Green, to be useful but to avoid creating problems in the very centre of the city.

salmocab

Not sure why I’m bothering but as has already been explained it’s not just the central section that can’t handle those numbers. You can’t just dismiss Dunville rd and Stillorgan and say the cars can wait a bit longer, those junctions would need major works.

Dats me

Also, as has been linked above, it's €134m. Not like they're blowing a billion on it, it has to be upgraded regardless of whether you stick your head in the sand or not, facts or facts and it can be done very economically.

antoinolachtnai

salmocab wrote: »

Not sure why I’m bothering but as has already been explained it’s not just the central section that can’t handle those numbers. You can’t just dismiss Dunville rd and Stillorgan and say the cars can wait a bit longer, those junctions would need major works.

And where luas crosses Adelaide Road and Cuffe St? No spafe for a turnaround platform at St Stephens Green? There are major problems everywhere!

strassenwo!f

bk, I am posting this reply to your recent post on the other thread here, for obvious reasons.

I actually wasn't thinking about Karlsruhe at all, and I've never even looked at that system or been in the city.

No, although some other cities have the same level of throughput in parts, the place which springs most readily to mind is the stretch of tramline in Berlin between around Hackescher Markt and Landsbergerallee, via Alexanderplatz. 2 tram tracks, around 36 trams per hour at peak times, several road crossings.

Not a myth.

bk

strassenwo!f wrote: »

bk, I am posting this reply to your recent post on the other thread here, for obvious reasons.

I actually wasn't thinking about Karlsruhe at all, and I've never even looked at that system or been in the city.

This is unbelievable!

The document you linked to that mentioned 36 trams was talking about Karlsruhe, which I then looked into and found the truth. So you are now claiming it isn't Karlsruhe you were talking about!!!

What is the point in even talking to you, if you just making it up as you go.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

No, although some other cities have the same level of throughput in parts, the place which springs most readily to mind is the stretch of tramline in Berlin between around Hackescher Markt and Landsbergerallee, via Alexanderplatz. 2 tram tracks, around 36 trams per hour at peak times, several road crossings.

Not a myth.

Point me to just one RTPI or schedule for a single tram stop in any city you want with 36 trams per hour and I'll believe you, very simple.

I'm done proving you wrong time and time again. You know have zero credibility, it is now up to you to prove your pretty fantastical claims.

antoinolachtnai

This is very exciting. Can you send me details of the list of tram stations near Hackescher Markt that has a train arriving every 2 minutes? I was looking at the list earlier, but I can't quite find it.

https://citymapper.com/berlin/tram/stops?name=S%20Hackescher%20Markt&coords=52.522607%2C13.402358

hans aus dtschl

strassenwo!f wrote: »

bk, I am posting this reply to your recent post on the other thread here, for obvious reasons.

I actually wasn't thinking about Karlsruhe at all, and I've never even looked at that system or been in the city.

No, although some other cities have the same level of throughput in parts, the place which springs most readily to mind is the stretch of tramline in Berlin between around Hackescher Markt and Landsbergerallee, via Alexanderplatz. 2 tram tracks, around 36 trams per hour at peak times, several road crossings.

Not a myth.

Are you talking about the M2?
Tram map available for download here:
http://www.bvg.de/de/index.php?section=downloads&cmd=58&download=401
25 M2's altogether this hour counting both directions according to Google.
I'm not sure when/if it'd ever have higher frequency.

Edit: just to add, 25 M2's and M8's together up at Mollstrasse, if that's the one you mean.

bk

I just checked Memhardstraße, between 5pm and 6pm (6pm to 7pm) their time, just 21 trams in both directions. What fun

25 both directions at Spandauer Straße/Marienkirche

bk

Ok, the busiest tram station I can find in Berlin is S+U Alexanderplatz Bhf/Gontardstr. (Berlin).

49 trams per hour in both directions looking at the schedule for the stop at peak times, pretty impressive.

But that is still only 24.5 trams per hour per direction, no where near your claimed 36 and pretty much right on the money for how many trams that the TII folks say are the maximum for the Luas is.

Also worth noting that the longest trams they have is only 40 meters, but they make up just less then 1/10th of their tram fleet. The vast majority are 30m and 36m (old style communist double cars). So 24 x 54m Luas would be comparatively a lot more people.

It just goes to show how impressive the Luas actually is, how high spec relatively it is for a tram, but also how close it is to the absolute maximum operating capacity of a tram system and why it needs upgrading to Metro.

strassenwo!f

Try this website: https://fahrinfo.bvg.de

I put in a journey from Hackescher Markt to Mollstrasse/Otto-Braunstrasse, and counted the number of trams between 1600 and 1659 (peak time).

In fairness, they don't seem to be running as many as 36 trams on that section. They are only running 30 (thirty) in each direction.

I apologise to the board for my mistake.

However, as I said several times earlier on this thread, 30 trams per direction per hour would be sufficient to keep the LUAS Green line capacity ahead of the metrolink.ie projections for the years to 2047.

bk

strassenwo!f wrote: »

However, as I said several times earlier on this thread, 30 trams per direction per hour would be sufficient to keep the LUAS Green line capacity ahead of the metrolink.ie projections for the years to 2047.

You have long claimed 36, you are now claiming 30!

Also note that Berlin trams are smaller, so less capacity per tram. Luas being longer will have an effect on dwell time and the maximum capacity at the stops and the junctions along the way.

bk

Lets do a little maths here. The longest and highest capacity trams in Berlin are 40m long and have a capacity of 240 passengers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Berlin#Flexity_Berlin

Now note, they don't actually have many of these longer trams, most are shorter 30m models, but lets just be overly generous and say they are all 40m on this stretch, so here is the maximum capacity we have:

30 trams x 240 passengers = 7,200 people per hour per direction.

By comparison, the Luas, once it is all 54 meter trams will be:

24 trams x 340 people = 8,160 people per hour per direction.

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2017/minister-ross-gives-green-light-%E2%82%AC100m-green-line-project

. At the end of the Green Line capacity project the capacity will increase to approximately 8,160 passengers per direction per hour based on 24 trams per hour.

So even with less trams, Luas will actually still have higher capacity then this stretch in Berlin, and I suspect the reality in Berlin is less, due to lots of shorter trams.

salmocab

bk wrote: »

ROFLOL, you have long claimed 36, you are now claiming 30!

Also note that Berlin trams are smaller, so less capacity per tram. Luas being longer will have an effect on dwell time and the maximum capacity at the stops and the junctions along the way.

Longer trams also take longer to pass a given point so leave less time for traffic crossing, although as I said on the other thread you can’t compare two completely cities as if they can possibly function exactly the same.

bk

salmocab wrote: »

Longer trams also take longer to pass a given point so leave less time for traffic crossing, although as I said on the other thread you can’t compare two completely cities as if they can possibly function exactly the same.

Yes, which is why it is best to trust what the engineers at TII say in their reports, that 24 is the maximum for Luas given their long lengths and the junctions they have to interact with.

It is interesting to look at other cities, it is interesting to see just how high capacity Luas is even compared to a massive city like Berlin, that has higher frequency, but actually results in less capacity.

It is also worth noting that this section in Berlin is actually just a relatively short one km or so area in the city center where tram 4 lines merge. Those lines split again at both ends out side this area. By comparison the Green line is one very long line. So quiet different again.

strassenwo!f

There is a central section in Vienna, with several road crossings, which is running 33 (thirty-three) trams per direction per hour, and not the 36 I originally thought. My bad.:o

See it at www.wienerlinien.at

bk

strassenwo!f wrote: »

There is a central section in Vienna, with several road crossings, which is running 33 (thirty-three) trams per direction per hour, and not the 36 I originally thought. My bad.:o

See it at www.wienerlinien.at

Capacity of their longest trams, is just 209 people (they also have lots of shorter, old fashioned trams)

so best case scenario capacity is:

33 trams * 209 people = 6,897 people per hour

WAY less then the Luas.

You seem to have forgotten that capacity of a route is both frequency X capacity per vehicle. And that longer vehicles typically mean less frequency, but don't necessarily mean less capacity across a route.

Don't forget that DART is just every 10 minutes, but has a capacity of 16,000 per direction per hour.

Brian CivilEng

bk wrote: »

Don't forget that DART is just every 10 minutes, but has a capacity of 16,000 per direction per hour.

Sorry to butt in, just wanted to check this figure. Are you sure it isn't 8,000 per direction per hour, 16,000 total? 8 car DARTs have a capacity of 1400, 6 per hour gives 8400.

Dats me

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Sorry to butt in, just wanted to check this figure. Are you sure it isn't 8,000 per direction per hour, 16,000 total? 8 car DARTs have a capacity of 1400, 6 per hour gives 8400.

Aye I thought so, impressively with DART Underground Iarnród Éireann reckoned they could do 3 minute headway which would give 1,400 * 20 = 28,000 ppdph.


The also shows how impressive the Metro is, the concept engineering doc shows actually greater capacity than this if they run 90m trains every 90 seconds

bk

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Sorry to butt in, just wanted to check this figure. Are you sure it isn't 8,000 per direction per hour, 16,000 total? 8 car DARTs have a capacity of 1400, 6 per hour gives 8400.

Aye, you may well be right.

I've never really seen definitive numbers for DART like we have for Luas, just seating capacity for DART. Where did you get the 1,400 figure from?

The 16,000 number came from this interesting article:
http://www.irrs.ie/Journal151/151%20News.htm

This phase will see passenger capacity increase from 11,800 to 16,000 per hour in each direction

But now that I think on it, they are probably talking about the total capacity line, including DART, but also commuter and intercity trains. That might make sense then?

The more you learn about LUAS and other systems in other cities around the world, the more impressive you realise Luas actually is. A high spec tram with almost the same hourly capacity as a heavy rail DART and seemingly more capacity then the busiest routes in massive cities like Berlin and Vienna. Pretty cool.

And now imagine what it will be like if we get a Metro and DU

bk

Interesting, you are right, I see 1,400 here:

http://www.irrs.ie/Journal183/183%20News.htm

“The most heavily loaded train was the 08:00 Greystones-Malahide DART, on the section of line between Blackrock and Booterstown. It carried 906 passengers at that point. This service was operated using an 8-car DART, which has a capacity of 1,400 passengers (seats and standing) - this represents a 65% load factor.”

Brian CivilEng

I got the 1400 figure from the report on the 2017 railway census. It gives capacities for all the different configurations.

strassenwo!f

The LUAS Green Line has done a lot of good for Dublin, but I reiterate my earlier point that the volumes seen on the southside Green line are not comparable to what is seen in individual suburbs of other European cities, certainly big central European ones like Berlin, because there has been development of many tram (or underground) lines which effectively compete with each other, and often share track with each other in a central section of their city, where they can meet with S- or U-Bahns or trams to go elsewhere.

There is no rail-based option which competes with the Green LUAS, across a whole swathe of south Dublin, for a rapid journey into the city.

As Dublin does not (yet) have such a wealth of public transport infrastructure, and its traffic at places like O'Connell Bridge is consequently very heavy, it is very doubtful that such areas could sustain a tram throughput of 30 trams per hour in each direction (tphpd), such as parts of Berlin have, and I have never suggested this.

The main body of the LUAS Green line between Sandyford and Charlemont could surely deliver this level of service though, with only two minor crossings (at Stillorgan and Dunville Avenue). The car drivers there might have to wait a little bit longer to cross, but so be it.

It seems, to me, that a short section of LUAS track, between the Peter Place - Adelaide Road junction and Wilton Place (serving Baggot Street and Leeson Street) could be the answer. (I've mentioned it before on this thread).

This would possibly require demoltion of the derelict house at the corner of Peter Place and Adelaide Road, and I'm obviously not sure exactly how this would be done - it might be a direct Adelaide Road - Leeson Street Bridge - Wilton Terrace - Baggot Street Bridge route, or it might be an Adelaide Road - Leeson Street Bridge - Fitzwilliam Place - Cumberland Road -Wilton Terrace - Baggot Street route. Or something else.

In any case, that arrangement would provide a LUAS service, at peak times, to and from an area, right beside the canal, which is busy at those peak-times.

And it should only be 1 km, 2 km maximum, to achieve a direct tram connection between Peter Place on the Green Line and areas like Leeson Street and Baggot Street which are very busy at peak times. This area certainly takes a lot of the of the people getting off at St. Stephen's Gree on the current LUAS arrangement.

The Green Line already has the direct connection across the city. Add in a direct LUAS link to areas like Leeson Street and Baggot Street and it would surely be even better.

The current arrangement is that 20 tpdph travel through the city centre. In the event that such an arrangement, with a line to/from the centre and a line to/from Baggot Street were built, the authorities might start with an 18:4 ratio, with 18 trains going through the city, and a tram every 15 minutes to Baggot Street Bridge, to see how it worked out.

It would obviously depend on how public tansport infrastructure develops in the city, but on the current basis I'd be fairly confident that a ratio of 20 (city centre):10 (Baggot Street area) would be realistic, at peak times.

That arrangement should allow several new areas to be served, with relative ease, without the need for tunnelling.

It should also 'free up' the tunnel boring machine to serve other new areas in the city, particularly in the south-west.

CatInABox

Ah, I see that you've ignored every single point put to you over the last few pages and gone off on an entirely new tangent. Well done.

salmocab

This beggars belief at this stage, Dunville Ave couldn’t take a tram every 60 secs, it wouldn’t mean the cars would have to wait a bit longer it would mean the area becomes a bigger car park than the M50. With the red lights before and after a tram coming and the one way at a time nature of that crossing people wouldn’t be able to get out of their parking spaces with the build up of traffic.