Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

marno21

tom1ie wrote: »

I was talking about the lack of resources in the nta and maybe they should concentrate on one project at a time so that project can be delivered quickly. I believe that project should be bus connects.
Where the hell did I mention metro sw?

Well this is the Metro thread so maybe that's why I jumped to that conclusion :pac:

If the NTA are currently unable to adequately deal with Metrolink (which is shared with TII) and BusConnects then the Minister for Transport should adequately resource the NTA to deal with both projects (and all the other pies their hands are stuck in).

The NTA are getting 26 extra staff in 2019 and 26 in 2020 I believe which will help.

tom1ie

D.L.R. wrote: »

No, you missed my point there.

What I'm saying is I have no horse in the whole Green line upgrade vs Rathfarnham fantasy metro idea.

Read posts more carefully before you throw a wobbler.

Ah no I’m not throwing a wobbler, to me your post seemed like you ment something else. Maybe I misread, maybe it was a poorly constructed post, as another poster picked up on it aswell:P
Didn’t mean any harm anyway. By the way I’m not trumpeting a sw line over a gl upgrade. It’d be lovely to get but thats not gonna happen. I’m merely asking the question are the nta spread too thin, with too many projects on their plate. Do they need to prioritize a project that is going to benefit much more people.

tom1ie

marno21 wrote: »

Well this is the Metro thread so maybe that's why I jumped to that conclusion :pac:

If the NTA are currently unable to adequately deal with Metrolink (which is shared with TII) and BusConnects then the Minister for Transport should adequately resource the NTA to deal with both projects (and all the other pies their hands are stuck in).

The NTA are getting 26 extra staff in 2019 and 26 in 2020 I believe which will help.

I didn’t know that. Surely that’ll help but as usual we are behind the curve here and we are already seeing delays on all projects unfortunately.
As for the minister for transport giving a toss about pt in Dublin...........I’ll let you draw your own conclusions there!

strassenwo!f

D.L.R. wrote: »

As long as I can get the Dart to Tara and transfer to the Metro for Airport/Ranelagh, I couldn't care less where it ends up.

But the idea of ejaculating money into a metro tunnel to a less economically active part of the city, instead of a cheap metro upgrade of the green, is so utterly moronic it makes me question the mental health of this country's citizenry.

The NTA's apparent inability to slap down this hairbrained nonsense illustrates how the state's transport planning is just as inefficient and crap as the transport network itself.

This country hasn't got a bog.

But you're not ejaculating money. You're making it easier for people to go in and do a day's work.

Reducing the journey time from, say, Firhouse, to the city from 80 minutes to 25 would be a major improvement. Rapidly into the mix.

This would also be true for bus passengers going via Walkinstown cross: a massive reduction in journey times into and out of the city.

Either of those options outlined above would deliver massive reductions in journey times for people trying to get into and ou of the city. As shown on this thread (or mentioned even in this very post), journey times into and out of the city could be reduced by at least 50%, and probably more, and a southwest option would add many rapid, rail-based transport options around the southside.

Upgrading the current LUAS adds nothing.

The proposed southside part of the metolink is not going to provide noticeably quicker journeys into or out of the city, and it's not going to serve any new areas of southside Dublin.

lawred2

When is the first shovel in the ground?

Dats me

First shovel is scheduled 2021, so add delays onto that, realistically I'd say late 2022.

And Strassenwolf I'm not going to bother reading your posts since you don't read other people's but not going Green Line means there will be a 3,000 person gulf between travel demand (11,000) and capacity (8,000) by 2030, and terminating the line underground means a very expensive turnaround, I would say you'd only get about 1km past Portobello (assuming you replace the Charlemont stop) for the €350m the Green Line upgrade is going to cost.

All info above is from metrolink.ie including tunnelling costs which are in the tunnel configuration study before you ask.

If you actually think the Green Line upgrade is about improving Sandyford-Charlemont journey times then I don't even know what to say.

D14Rugby

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Can we cut out the personal abuse please.

You are joking right. The quote I replied to literally questions the mental health of everyone who disagrees with them and that's fine but my pointing out that saying once you get your way who cares about anyone else is self centered isn't? You're gonna have to explain that one.

Ahhh I get it now after reading your other posts. You agree with them, that's why. That's fine. Not like this thread is for discussing ALTERNATIVE routes for metrolink or anything.

strassenwo!f

Dats me wrote: »

First shovel is scheduled 2021, so add delays onto that, realistically I'd say late 2022.

And Strassenwolf I'm not going to bother reading your posts since you don't read other people's but not going Green Line means there will be a 3,000 person gulf between travel demand (11,000) and capacity (8,000) by 2030, and terminating the line underground means a very expensive turnaround, I would say you'd only get about 1km past Portobello (assuming you replace the Charlemont stop) for the €350m the Green Line upgrade is going to cost.

All info above is from metrolink.ie including tunnelling costs which are in the tunnel configuration study before you ask.

If you actually think the Green Line upgrade is about improving Sandyford-Charlemont journey times then I don't even know what to say.

I read every post on this thread

From the metrolink.ie figures there would be a potential gap of 3,000 (over the current numbers) in 2037, and a potential gap of 4,000 in 2047, if Dublin does nothing with the Green line.

We're not allowed to talk specifically here about what other cities are currently doing in terms of tram throughput, but a gradual increase in the Green line throughput should see the Green line through until the mid 2040's. An upgrade would be appropriate then.

CatInABox

strassenwo!f wrote: »

We're not allowed to talk specifically here about what other cities are currently doing in terms of tram throughput, but a gradual increase in the Green line throughput should see the Green line through until the mid 2040's. An upgrade would be appropriate then.

Just because you keep saying this, doesn't make it true.

Sam Russell

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I read every post on this thread

From the metrolink.ie figures there would be a potential gap of 3,000 (over the current numbers) in 2037, and a potential gap of 4,000 in 2047, if Dublin does nothing with the Green line.

We're not allowed to talk specifically here about what other cities are currently doing in terms of tram throughput, but a gradual increase in the Green line throughput should see the Green line through until the mid 2040's. An upgrade would be appropriate then.

It has been pointed out to you many times that the Green Line is currently leaving passengers on the platform due to overcrowding. It needs upgrading now, let alone in 2027 when Metrolink should start.

What are all the new house occupiers that will live in Cherrywood going to do to get to CC?

The GL currently runs the longest trams in the world, and runs at the maximum frequency possible according to the NTA. There is no where else to go but fully segregated running, with underground through the CC - that is Metrolink.

tom1ie

Genuine question here but are there any other country’s in the world with a tax paying population similar to rep of Ireland that have a city the same size population as Dublin, that are building a metro or have built a metro?

Idbatterim

The green line should be upgraded to metro. But I’m don’t for one second buy that they can’t eek out more capacity on the green line. Stopping the trams for minor road junctions is pathetic. They can also surely start delivering tram modules that are standing only ? If each team had even one of these it would surely largely increase capacity?

Rulmeq

tom1ie wrote: »

Genuine question here but are there any other country’s in the world with a tax paying population similar to rep of Ireland that have a city the same size population as Dublin, that are building a metro or have built a metro?

Copenhagen I think is very similar in size to Dublin (although probably more difficult terrain), and they are building a circular underground metro (I saw a doco on Discovery about it recently, so it may already be completed. Also they were going driverless - although the trains were kind of ugly looking.

Sam Russell

Idbatterim wrote: »

The green line should be upgraded to metro. But I’m don’t for one second buy that they can’t eek out more capacity on the green line. Stopping the trams for minor road junctions is pathetic. They can also surely start delivering tram modules that are standing only ? If each team had even one of these it would surely largely increase capacity?

more capacity on the green line

Trying to increase the capacity would require more frequent trams which is not possible in the city centre without giving them absolute priority, which in turn means banning cars.

modules that are standing only

That would only work for a high-floor vehicle as the bogies protrude into the carriage and so they put seats on top of them. The small buses in Nice, France have seating for about 20 and standing for 67 (or something like that). These are small, single-decker buses.

tom1ie

Rulmeq wrote: »

Copenhagen I think is very similar in size to Dublin (although probably more difficult terrain), and they are building a circular underground metro (I saw a doco on Discovery about it recently, so it may already be completed. Also they were going driverless - although the trains were kind of ugly looking.

Yes but Denmark has almost 1 million people more working and paying taxes, they also pay almost 60% tax, the highest in the oecd. My point being metrolink is going to cost 3 billion according to the metrolink website, if we go with the hispec option. Now history will tell us this is going to increase massively (children’s hospital, etc etc). Can Ireland afford this at the same time as spending 3 billion on bus connects, which benefits so many more people? Not to mention dart upgrade to commuter lines.
I think metrolink is a fantastic project but we are clearly trying to do too much all at once and we could end up with nothing at the end of the day or a half arsed mush mash.

lawred2

Rulmeq wrote: »

Copenhagen I think is very similar in size to Dublin (although probably more difficult terrain), and they are building a circular underground metro (I saw a doco on Discovery about it recently, so it may already be completed. Also they were going driverless - although the trains were kind of ugly looking.

Not really relevant when they spend their entire existence under ground

D.L.R.

Trams can't do the job of a metro :rolleyes:

"The longest trams in the world" - oh wow.. except street trams should be short :rolleyes:

This country is not capable of delivering a tunnel to SW Dublin. People need to get their heads out of their arses. We'd all love 6 metro lines, wouldn't that be lovely.

Currently NOTHING under construction in Dublin regards transport. But hey lets waffle on another few years about a metro line, sure we've been doing that for 40 years whats another 5 :pac::pac::pac:

This all talk no action mentality explains exactly why Dublin transport is dog sh1t.

Rulmeq

lawred2 wrote: »

Not really relevant when they spend their entire existence under ground

That doesn't mean you can't have nice ones. The ones in Porto look cool.

strassenwo!f

Sam Russell wrote: »

It has been pointed out to you many times that the Green Line is currently leaving passengers on the platform due to overcrowding. It needs upgrading now, let alone in 2027 when Metrolink should start.

What are all the new house occupiers that will live in Cherrywood going to do to get to CC?

The GL currently runs the longest trams in the world, and runs at the maximum frequency possible according to the NTA. There is no where else to go but fully segregated running, with underground through the CC - that is Metrolink.

It should be pointed out here that the Green Line trams are running at a maximum of 20 tph - I've checked this several times over the last year, both in situ and on the LUAS website - while the maximum throughput currently allowed is 24 tph (20% above what is actually being done).

There are obvious and very good reasons for this. Chiefly, I'd guess, would be the obvious impracticality of getting 24 tph through the busiest parts of the city.

<SNIP>

Adding a short section of tramline between Peter Place and Baggot Street Bridge, with the possibility of an extension to Grand Canal Dock or thereabouts, would help Dublin implement those procedures, without altering the peak time situation on the current bit of the Green Line which passes through the most central part of the city.

These procedures, while not commonplace, <SNIP> but it is hard to see how they couldn't be adopted by Dublin, with its very long stretch of off-street tramline to and from Sandyford.

Mod: Do not back seat mod - it is not allowed.

tom1ie

D.L.R. wrote: »

Trams can't do the job of a metro :rolleyes:

"The longest trams in the world" - oh wow.. except street trams should be short :rolleyes:

This country is not capable of delivering a tunnel to SW Dublin. People need to get their heads out of their arses. We'd all love 6 metro lines, wouldn't that be lovely.

Currently NOTHING under construction in Dublin regards transport. But hey lets waffle on another few years about a metro line, sure we've been doing that for 40 years whats another 5 :pac::pac::pac:

This all talk no action mentality explains exactly why Dublin transport is dog sh1t.

I agree with all of this. We are gonna end up with **** all when it comes to pt in Dublin! The next downturn will wipe out the projects, unless they’ve already kicked off in any meaningful way, which they won’t have.

Dats me

The cost is a red herring Jesus Christ, it's €3bn, 6 year construction. So €500m/year for 6 years. Not that that's tiny, but if you Google budget 2019 we're going to spend €62bn (€62,000m) next year.

We're supposedly one of the wealthiest countries in the world, it's a sad "sure we're only ireland" mindset that's holding Ireland back here.

Amsterdam is smaller than Dublin with 800,000 people and they opened their fourth metro line of this year.

marno21

Dats me wrote: »

The cost is a red herring Jesus Christ, it's €3bn, 6 year construction. So €500m/year for 6 years. Not that that's tiny, but if you Google budget 2019 we're going to spend €62bn (€62,000m) next year.

We're supposedly one of the wealthiest countries in the world, it's a sad "sure we're only ireland" mindset that's holding Ireland back here.

Amsterdam is smaller than Dublin with 800,000 people and they opened their fourth metro line of this year.

Indeed and it's 3bn with a positive benefit cost ratio. We have no problem throwing 10 figure sums at HSE over runs and I wonder what the benefit cost ratio on those is?

We'll have reduced debt servicing costs this year thanks to 10 year bonds from the Lenihan era being paid off and replaced with circa 1% 10 year bonds. This will help fund capital projects but with the Children's Hospital and the National Broadband Plan being money sinkholes who knows where that cash will end up

Rulmeq

Dats me wrote: »

The cost is a red herring Jesus Christ, it's €3bn, 6 year construction. So €500m/year for 6 years. Not that that's tiny, but if you Google budget 2019 we're going to spend €62bn (€62,000m) next year.

It's infrastructure that will be around in 100+ years as well.

strassenwo!f

Okay, I'll try again to reply to the poster Sam Russell's post, in reply to my earlier one.

Sam Russell wrote:

It has been pointed out to you many times that the Green Line is currently leaving passengers on the platform due to overcrowding. It needs upgrading now, let alone in 2027 when Metrolink should start.

What are all the new house occupiers that will live in Cherrywood going to do to get to CC?

The GL currently runs the longest trams in the world, and runs at the maximum frequency possible according to the NTA. There is no where else to go but fully segregated running, with underground through the CC - that is Metrolink.

It should be pointed out here that the Green Line trams are running at a maximum of 20 tph - I've checked this several times over the last year, both in situ and on the LUAS website - while the maximum throughput currently allowed is 24 tph (20% above what is actually being done).

There are obvious and very good reasons for this. Chiefly, I'd guess, would be the obvious impracticality of getting 24 tph through the busiest parts of the city.

But I hope it is safe to point out that there are other European cities which have adopted certain procedures to which the off-street section of the Green line would seem to be especially suited.

Adding a short section of tramline between Peter Place and Baggot Street Bridge, with the possibility of an extension to Grand Canal Dock or thereabouts, would help Dublin implement those procedures, without altering the peak time situation on the current bit of the Green Line which passes through the most central part of the city.

These procedures, while not yet commonplace, have been implemented to effect in several European cities. Where those cities might be, and what those procedures might be, appears to be something we can't discuss right now, but it is hard to see how they couldn't be adopted by Dublin, with its very long stretch of off-street tramline to and from Sandyford.

Dats me

I believe throughput is limited to 20tph through the slow city centre section and it's Sandyford to Charlemont that is 24tph although I'm not sure?

Could you provide a source for the 24tph through city centre sections?

This is leaving aside of course that Sandyford to Charlemont is limited to 24tph so building a branch line in the city centre wouldn't increase capacity beyond going from 20 to 24tph and would probably cost a similar amount to the €300-350m upgrade to Metro which increases capacity from 20 to 40tph.

strassenwo!f

Dats me wrote: »

I believe throughput is limited to 20tph through the slow city centre section and it's Sandyford to Charlemont that is 24tph although I'm not sure?

Could you provide a source for the 24tph through city centre sections?

This is leaving aside of course that Sandyford to Charlemont is limited to 24tph so building a branch line in the city centre wouldn't increase capacity beyond going from 20 to 24tph and would probably cost a similar amount to the €300-350m upgrade to Metro which increases capacity from 20 to 40tph.

I think it's the NTA who have said that 24 tph is the maximum throughput permissible on any of their tramlines. I'm afraid I have to say that I feel it's possible that the powers that be in Dublin may not have looked very closely at what other European cities are currently doing with their trams, and how to squeeze more out of the Green line, as a tram line.

40 vehicles per hour along that southside Green line route. I'm working on around 400 people per tram for a 55m vehicle, based on the metrolink.ie figures, so a 60m metro vehicle would have to have around 450. At 40 vehicles per hour, that's going to be able to deliver a whopping 18,000 people per hour along the Green line.

But the metrolink.ie figures only envisage a demand in 2057 of 13,000 people along that route.

It will be well into the next century, or possibly the century after that, before the Sandyford route needs a line with a capacity of 18,000 people per hour.

Lord Glentoran

D.L.R. wrote: »

Trams can't do the job of a metro :rolleyes:

"The longest trams in the world" - oh wow.. except street trams should be short :rolleyes:

This country is not capable of delivering a tunnel to SW Dublin. People need to get their heads out of their arses. We'd all love 6 metro lines, wouldn't that be lovely.

Currently NOTHING under construction in Dublin regards transport. But hey lets waffle on another few years about a metro line, sure we've been doing that for 40 years whats another 5 :pac::pac::pac:

This all talk no action mentality explains exactly why Dublin transport is dog sh1t.

It’s a diversionary tactic to prevent anything tangible from happening.

Bray Head

Anyone who talks with precision about transport demand decades from now is suffering from confidence far beyond the facts.

Population and employment in Ireland are very volatile in Ireland.

Transport demand fell like a stone in 2008-2011 - from memory suburban rail by something like 15%-20%.

The pace of the recovery since 2014 has surprised most forecasters too. Widespread reports of Dublin Bus and Luas leaving passengers at stops at morning peak hours.


Population and demand projections are just that: projections. A central scenario is subject to wide error bars. Things could be a lot stronger, or a lot weaker.

What do we know for sure? Luas Green line is at or above capacity at certain times of the day already in 2019. Much development is planned at Cherrywood. Ireland, and in particular Dublin, remains a very attractive place for FDI and skilled migrants.



Plan on that basis.

tom1ie

Dats me wrote: »

The cost is a red herring Jesus Christ, it's €3bn, 6 year construction. So €500m/year for 6 years. Not that that's tiny, but if you Google budget 2019 we're going to spend €62bn (€62,000m) next year.

We're supposedly one of the wealthiest countries in the world, it's a sad "sure we're only ireland" mindset that's holding Ireland back here.

Amsterdam is smaller than Dublin with 800,000 people and they opened their fourth metro line of this year.

Yes. 9.1 million people work in the Netherlands and pay general taxation which pays for metros in amsterdam. We don’t have that in Ireland.

Idbatterim

Spare the trolling. They’ll have more than half a billion to send up in smoke on the world class welfare system in budget 2020... they have the money for this metro line! If it’s built with adequate capacity from the get go, how many tens of millions is it expected to carry on opening ?