Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819424#Comment_121819424

Right nice.

The turn back is critical to the LUAS max capacity on the GL then.

cgcsb

Was there a reason why metro couldn't just cpo Peter place estate and the car park behind the presbyterian church and use that space and tie into metro, keeping the tie in North of Charlemont with a temporary turn back at Charlemont Station and divert the luas along adelaide Road. That avoid the sewer probable and the disrupted passengers would still be able to come in as far as Charlemont.

csirl

I dont see the GL upgrade happening - people along it have lost their chance for an upgrade.

With the demand for PT in Dublin going forward, any future projects need to add to the network. There's way more benefits to having a GL luas AND a metro SW than an upgraded GL.

As for an additional Luas down the N11 serving Sandyford? Political suicide for any Minister to give yet another rail project to SE Dublin when many parts of the city have nothing.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819891#Comment_121819891

Tbf I see the benefit of a GL upgrade to have a north south metro spine from swords to sandyford.

In saying that if the tie in turns into a political **** show because of a 9 month closure (at least) then the GL commuters should miss out on an upgrade and other areas of Dublin should benefit from a metro.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819462#Comment_121819462

So in that case I imagine it’ll be too late for a GL upgrade?

I imagine a metro 2 line would be in design at that stage.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819462#Comment_121819462

I think that is a given.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820044#Comment_121820044

NTA and TII will likely be conducting reports on a future tie in the moment the existing plan clears planning and shovels are in the ground.

Green Line tie in could easily clear planning before the existing scheme even finishes. I'm guessing that's the plan anyway.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820044#Comment_121820044

No, I expect they will do a detailed study of the three most likely options, GL Upgrade, UCD or SW and based on the outcome of that will go ahead with one. Similar to how Metrolink came from a 2017 study of options for that corridor.

I suspect there will be enormous public pressure to go with the GL upgrade option, plus it would likely be by far the cheapest option. Vastly cheaper then a SW line.

Also you keep repeating 9 months. That was the old plan, a new plan, could look very different.

Really we will have to wait and see what the planners come up with and the comparison of the different options.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820195#Comment_121820195

I keep repeating at least 9 months as that is the only plan on the table at the moment so that’s fair enough imo.

As I said before the GL upgrade makes the most sense IF (and it’s a big if) a 9 month total closure can be sold to the public and the politicians stay out of it- which they won’t.

In that case the door is open to a SW or other route.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820245#Comment_121820245

Far more likely that nothing happens at all in that scenario. A south west bored tunnel will be phenomenally expensive and will quite as much disruption, if not more, as the GL tie in would do.

I don't think it's simply a matter of turning the tunnel west. I think it's we get the tie in or we get nothing.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819891#Comment_121819891

The GL upgrade would add 10,000 pphpd capacity to the line for hundreds of millions. It would be exceptionally cost effective.

But it is that or turning the TBM in a different direction from Charlemont.

Sam Russell

Does no-one remembers the Newland's Cross upgrade that removed the Mad Cow Roundabout and allows free=flow through the old roundabout.

It took forever - years - caused massive traffic jams - for miles in all directions - starred in the RTE traffic jam reports every day - and became a running joke in popular culture.

Any closure of the GL will be forgotten within a month once the metro allows those affected to use it to the full. Getting to the CC in minutes, the airport in less than half an hour will be celebrated in the red brick palaces in Rathmines and the industrial estate in Sandyford and all places in-between.

They will not know what to do with themselves and wonder what the fuss was about as they head for their holidays.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820487#Comment_121820487

That’s very unambitious to be honest.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820593#Comment_121820593

Rathmines? Why would a GL upgrade be celebrated in rathmines?

Do you mean Ranelagh?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821098#Comment_121821098

I do of course. Ranelagh is on the route.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819240#Comment_121819240

Not railing against anything.

Tallaght could definitely do with a second line.

Just humorous that you threw your toys out of the pram over Sanydord.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821098#Comment_121821098

Many in Rathmines take it daily. It is a short walk.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819891#Comment_121819891

It’s more like the existing politicians really want a UCD tie in and that there will be a growing pressure for that once every university with the exception of UCD is served by rail of some description.

spacetweek

Luas to UCD won’t ruffle feathers in the north side considering it is getting Dart Coastal, Dart West, Metrolink and Luas Finglas all in the next 8 years.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820195#Comment_121820195

“I expect they will do a detailed study of the three most likely options, GL Upgrade, UCD or SW and based on the outcome of that will go ahead with one. “

…And then build the other two shortly afterwards, right? It’s not 1 of the 3, it’s all 3.

spacetweek

The SW line should not interface at all at Charlemont as then ML would be a 3-way line, which would split the capacity between S and SW. Also trying to tie in would be an engineering sh*tshow.

Instead it should run Beaumont-Drumcondra-Mater-High St-Harold’s Cross-Terenure-Tallaght-Saggart-Rathcoole. Bonus points if you get it over the N7 to Newcastle. Would cost a fortune but could be done in stages:

Mater-Terenure

Terenure-Rathcoole

Beaumont-Mater

loco_scolo

For a new line, you have to consider places which can easily accommodate cut and cover stations and also connect areas with large employment centres, dense residential + potential for dense redevelopment.

An option (acknowledging I'm not familiar with some of these locations):

Irish Glass Bottle Site -> Ringsend Stadium -> Grand Canal Dock -> Wilton Terrace -> Charlemont

-> Cathal Da Brugha Barracks -> Harold's Cross Stadium -> Kimmage Industrial Estate -> Ashleaf Shopping Centre Crumlin ->

Greenhills (Ballymount) -> Kylemore (Ballymount) -> TU Campus Tallaght -> Tallaght Stadium

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821627#Comment_121821627

Sure, in an ideal world. Even then, you would still need to choose how to prioritise them. Also you couldn’t do both a GL Metro upgrade and have a SW branch off Charlemont, the tunnel wouldn’t have the capacity for both to feed into it. You would have to do the SW Metro as a separate Metro line.

And how would all three compare to Metro West, the various other proposed Luas lines (Lucan, North East, etc.), Dart Underground, etc.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821092#Comment_121821092

Unfortunately it would be a likely outcome.

NTA/TII already did a study of this potential SW route just two years ago, plus they looked at the option of doing the SW line as a separate line terminating at Stephen’s Green (an option that has the advantage of leaving the option of upgrading the Green line to Metro).

Both options ended up with moderate demand, high construction cost and as a result a poor BCR (Benefit to Cost Ratio) of 0.5/0.6

The conclusion was that neither option should be progressed.

The GL Metro upgrade would be attractive as it would double the capacity of the GL, a line with massive demand and growth potential, for a relatively very low cost of a couple hundred million, which would make for a very positive BCR.

If for whatever reason the GL Metro upgrade doesn’t happen, the likely outcome is that nothing happens, including a SW option.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821901#Comment_121821901

After this another line to consider could be a semi-circular line from Merrion Gates, through UCD, through 3 southside golf courses, up towards Heuston West, convert PPT line through Drumcondra to Metro standard, and head to Spencer Dock, even continue using the port freight line across the Liffey to Glass Bottle Site. The Maynooth line could remain as Dart serving Spencer Dock only, not Connolly.

The options are endless really.

Grassy Knoll

wherever , it goes, if anywhere, will have to accept higher density development, we can see it planned along both routes at the minute

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821497#Comment_121821497

No toys out of the pram from me- not sure where you got that from?

Try and keep it on topic.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821951#Comment_121821951

The report prepared by Jacobs/NTA/TII was aimed at people who were calling for SSG to Charlemont to be axed, so I wouldn't give much weight to its claimed CBA. To be clear, I fully support current Metrolink plans and upgrade of GL.

The SW route which NTA/TII analysed missed key areas of high development potential such as Cathal Da Brugha Barracks, Ballymount Industrial Estate (South East side of the estate) and Tallaght. It chose a route almost exclusively through residential areas of 3-bed semi-Ds.

The population of Greater Dublin Area is likely to grow from 2.2m today to 3.3-3.6m in 50years, assuming population growth of 0.8-1.0% per annum. The likes of Tallaght and Ballymount can't rely exclusively on the Red Luas, Buses and one Dart station on the northern boundary of Ballymount (an area of 6.5sqkm).

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822287#Comment_121822287

Having read the report now, I’d say it is fairly accurate. Sure a slightly different alignment might add 0.1 or 0.2 to a CBA, but I’d doubt it would break a 1:1 CBA, so not great either way.

Of course I’m not saying it won’t ever happen, if they can’t find a way to route a Luas through there, then it might be the only option despite a poor CBA.

I think we would both agree that it would be insane to hobble the Green line by building this as an extension of the Metrolink. That just makes no sense.

The second option of a completely separate SW line as far as Stephen’s Green was only a few hundred million more, while leaving the option to upgrade the Green line when needed and also the option of continuing it further North East in future. A vastly better option IMO.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822495#Comment_121822495

I haven't read the report in detail so won't accept or dispute the CBA - the issue is their chosen route which excludes Tallaght, a population of 60,000. It also excludes Ballymount and Cathal Da Brugha Barracks. Including these 3 areas in a route selection would provide a vastly different result. Extending the line further to Wilton Terrace, Grand Canal Dock and Glass Bottle Site Ringsend is a different ballgame.

I don't accept that no other Metro route in the city would yield a positive CBA. Fully supportive of GL, again just to be clear.