Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121818643#Comment_121818643

a couple of other questions on this @bk if ya don't mind:

• The 20,000 PPHPD, is that based off a 65m long metro tram at 90 sec frequency?
• I remember talk of a 90m long metro, but I cant recall was that metro north or metrolink?
• If the metro trams were 90m long and operating at 90 sec frequency, what PPHPD does that give us?
• Is there any country in the world that operates an autonomous metro with a faster frequency of 90 secs?

I'm being cheeky asking this here instead of looking up the metrolink brochure i know!

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822815#Comment_121822815

• yep, 65m at 90 seconds
• 90m was Metro North and as it wasn’t automated, it would have a frequency of only 3 minutes and thus a significantly less hourly capacity then Metrolink.
• Sure, but that would require building much larger underground stations and would likely require them to be the more expensive mining technique rather than the cheaper and simpler cut and cover Metrolink is going to use. Metrolink really is being engineered for the ideal of high capacity at affordable cost. Given Metrolink is already going through ABP, non of that would change at this stage.
• Not that I’m aware of.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822693#Comment_121822693

It certainly should serve Tallaght and the post 2042 Luas map has that line between Tallaght and Ballycullen.

On issue with this, is that you just end up taking passengers from the Red Line and while of course would be attractive for folks in Tallaght, it would actually have a negative impact on a CBA. Generally speaking taking folks out of cars is seen as having a positive impact on CBA’s, but taking folks out of other forms of public transport is seen as relatively negative.

The Barracks is only like 1,000 extra homes, hardly going to move the needle and the government haven’t decided to actually develop it yet. Personally I’m not a fan of the idea, given the riots a few months ago, I think it is important to have a military presence in the city. But that is beside the point, 1,000 homes won’t matter much to a CBA.

As for the industrial estate, is there actually any plan to redevelop it as housing? They probably should, but I’m not aware of any plans yet. If they do, then of course a SW Metro should definitely take that into account.

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done eventually, just that it isn’t as obvious a slam dunk that some people seem to think it is.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821575#Comment_121821575

I dont agree. Dart West does very little for the northside. Its essentially a capacity increase for the existing Maynooth line which serves west Dublin and north Kildsre. "Dart coastal" - the Dart already exists. This will actually reduce the service for the northside by putting additional pressure from north county Dublin into an already oversubscribed dart line - so a negative for northsiders.

No chance any of these projects is delivered in 8 years.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822916#Comment_121822916

The Red Luas is jammers already. It doesn't have the capacity to support significantly higher developments. It's also slow, taking 40minutes from Tallaght to the city centre, and shares large sections with other traffic, which massively limits it's potential for improvements.

The areas around Cathal Da Brugha Barracks have population densities of 11-13,000 per sqkm, and that's with mostly low density 2 storey houses. The Barracks is 0.16sqkm, so even at 12,000 per sqkm, it could house an additional 2,000 people, on top of all the people who currently live there. That's not insignificant.

Ballymount redevelopment area is called City Edge project. Not exactly far advanced, but the idea is there.

https://cityedge.ie/

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822916#Comment_121822916

Whilst I probably veer to the SW Metro skeptic side. I will say a thing going in its favour that likely overrides somewhat the CBA is the fact that a Luas in the area is very unlikely to happen either. There is really no easy corridors on that side of the city where you could achieve even partial grade separation from Traffic. This would lead ultimately to a worse experience given how slowly a luas will have to crawl through traffic. It really is a Metro or remaining with the existing very congested bus routes.

It's why I'm more curious in a Metro West/Orbital which passes through the area that can also stitch the various working areas together, Blanch, Park West, Tallaght and Sandyford so folk could interchange with Dart+/Metro/Luas as required. This I believe would have a better cba than another radial route into town from a poorly served part of Dublin. Getting folk from Terenure to a Metrolink, or Blanch more easily to a Dart+ would be more effective IMHO.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822968#Comment_121822968

I'm not sure how doubling capacity on the Dart can be portrayed as a reduction in service.

Nor do I think there's any evidence that we won't have Dart+ and Metrolink finished for the most part in 10 years. TIIs timelines tend to be pretty spot on

csirl

I dont buy some of the low density arguments used to say metro isnt viable for some suburbs. We know the following from experience:

- every new rail project of the past 50+ years has underestimated demand and has been overcapacity not long after it is built.

- the Dart , which is the heavy rail solution is way over capacity, even with doubling train lengths etc in spite of running through the part of Dublin with the smallest catchment area - no catchment on one side due to it being Dublin bay and running through a lot of older low density, large gardens, older population areas.

You could pick any two random parts of Dublin and so long as the rail line between them goes through the city centre, it would reach capacity very quickly.

KrisW1001

Regarding the 40 trains per hour (one every 90 seconds), and how that compares: Milan can run trains every 75 seconds on sections of its driverless lines M4 and M5. In France, the Lille metro, one of Europe's first fully automated systems runs every 66 seconds at rush-hour.

Both of those use shorter trains, though: Milan's are 50 m long (536 people maximum per train), while Lille's rubber-tyred "trains" are just 26 metres in length (160 passengers per).

Milan M4/M5 is very like MetroLink, so it's interesting that the Milan trains, while shorter than those possible on MetroLink, have a higher capacity than proposed MetroLink (536 per train vs 500 for MetroLink). As both systems may end up using the same family of train depending on how tenders go, this suggests that the 20,000 ppd/h maximum capacity may be a lower estimate.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822162#Comment_121822162

Ah but that was very much it.

“Would the good citizens of sandyford like helipads? How about a hyper loop?”

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823357#Comment_121823357

Ok take it personal if you wish and we move on.

No offence intended.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821951#Comment_121821951

I suspect this will change. The NTA really want the Green Line upgrade so will plug whatever they need to get that output imo.

If and when that doesn’t happen (as I personally don’t think it ever will), that will change.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823368#Comment_121823368

Not offended. Just think it is humorous how the outlook changes once you think there’s the chance of one going near where you live.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823017#Comment_121823017

There is mention here of Cathal Burgha and Ballymount but we are a long time from that changing. Outside of Firhouse and Tallaght, those are two of the only areas South West that support significant density upgrades. Indeed those two locations would force an alignment that basically excludes your Terenure and Rathfarnhams & leaves them to continue to moan.

We would need some change in attitudes amongst semi D suburbia before we get to the harder questions. It is noticeable the lack of developments in those area on the Dublin homes map website. There is no Dundrum area that can get a ready made mass infill of retail, offices and residential. There is no Cherrywood that is exploding in population and threatening to overrun the Green Line.

Would the locals out there support some of the OTT number of golf courses getting removed? Would there be support to go into the foothills of the mountains?

I can see the Knocklyon Luas getting built to help Tallaght, but a Metro seems far fetched.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823406#Comment_121823406

Look, I'm not sure why you are getting a bee in your bonnet over this but i have repeatedly said Dublin SW or WHEREVER!

You haven't a clue where i live!

I think we should agree to disagree and move on before we pull this thread off track (pun intended)

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823459#Comment_121823459

Castle Golf Club would be a fantastic spot to develop in the centre of Rathfarnham- I wonder what the chances of a CPO here would be?

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823017#Comment_121823017

The projects take so long to come to fruition, as soon as a prefered corridor is identified, the zoning will change, then the speculators and developers will come in. Low becomes medium or high quicker than the infrastructure is implemented.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823026#Comment_121823026

The design capacity is 500 persons but if you look at the Fire Safety Strategy documentation (pg 4) then:

The trains have an estimated maximum capacity for up to 500 passengers and for fire evacuation purposes, the train considers crush loaded scenarios of 600 people.

Design capacity and actual crush capacity can be quiet different. The fire evacuation capacity is almost certainly higher than is probably actually possible in a crush situation.

Also interestingly some of the early TII documentation on MetroLink after the driveless plan was agreed talked about trains every 75 seconds. This has been changed to trains every 90 seconds in some of the later docs. I'm not sure why. But I struggle to see why MetroLink wouldn't be able to achieve the same levels of service as Milan M4 and M5.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823501#Comment_121823501

Can’t see much sporting/leisure facilities being targeted, we need open space got recreational use. I know golf clubs are probably an easy one because it’s old rich people using them but we can’t just dismiss their value to the community.

apart from golf no one is going to really suggest any other sports facility as it would be treated differently for some reason.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824036#Comment_121824036

Well it’s more the size of the place if you look at it on google maps.

You’d fit a serious amount of medium density housing in that space.

But yeah it’s a balance it can’t all be housing.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824072#Comment_121824072

Yeah I know it, it’s a good lump of land but as you say it can’t all be housing. I’d be more interested in places like ballymount or the parts of sandyford that are low use warehouses and trade counters. Thing is though those businesses need to be somewhere and will be pushed out to start the cycle again.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823489#Comment_121823489

Except that you seem to constantly pick up on a second Sandyford line.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824036#Comment_121824036

There are too many golf courses in that part of Dublin. Golf courses take up a substantial amount of land, often being a net drain on areas.

At the very least we should not hesitate from taking over large chunks of them for construction.

I actually like and play golf myself.

AngryLips

Let's face it, the CBA is designed to fit the political agenda of those making the plans. It is inconceivable to me that a second metro line for the city would not justify a higher CBA outcome when there are plenty of other cities of similar size and profile to Dublin that have far more extensive metro networks. Also, does any of the older CBAs done even fully account for the carbon benefit of improved public transport in the city? Wasn't this something that was only legislated on recently? Of course you get dodgy CBAs when you externalise the costs, sure the NTA did a number on the Dart Underground CBA by tinkering with the assumptions in order to get out of planning for it.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823964#Comment_121823964

Interesting about the 75 second figure... may have been dropped to 90 to allow a wider range of tenders. But even at 90, Metrolink should be able to exceed Milan M4/M5 as the trains will be 30% longer.

Hitachi Italy (formerly AnsaldoBreda) are the train supplier for Milan. That's a 750 V third-rail system, rather than 1.5 kV overhead, but the rest of it is similar to Metrolink, so I imagine they'd be among the bidders to supply Metrolink cars, but whoever wins the contract, it'll be a very similar experience. I was impressed by the M5 when I was in Milan last: I think it was a major influence on Metrolink. (M5 opened about 5 years before M4)

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824221#Comment_121824221

As you are well aware taking over large chunks of them would see them cease to be golf clubs. Apart from the castle and mill town most of the courses in the area are practically in the mountains in that area. I’ve no beef with building in areas or trying to buy out a golf club but they are a used amenity. Not sure how comfortable I am with getting rid of large areas with lots of wildlife and replacing with housing, especially if it’s just to essentially make a metro viable.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824150#Comment_121824150

Yeah certain parts of ballymount industrial/Calmount estate could be redeveloped around a metro station using the T.O.D (transit orientated development) ethos of city planning.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824372#Comment_121824372

I know ballymount quite well, grew up nearby. The lump of land going from the greenhills industrial estate around to walkinstown and out to the m50 is massively underused. Some of the older industrial units have lots of wasted space around on them. It’s probably a great place to develop a new town if there were transport links put in. Again though the industry there does have to be somewhere and it’s pushing it out further again is likely to cause other issues down the road.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824298#Comment_121824298

Milltown, Castle, Grange, Edmonstown, Marley Putting Green all within the M50.

No need for that many.

They are taking up far too much space in one area.

Their value as an amenity is limited to a select few.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824298#Comment_121824298

I think I would disagree that a lot of these golf clubs have lots of wildlife. Most are very carefully curated to not have much wildlife. They're also a private amenity to extremely affluent individuals, not very appropiate in a dense urban setting.