Eir rural FTTH thread II

Marlow

tuxy wrote: »

Yikes, can see why Sky and Vodafone were reluctant to offer a service on the network.?

There were also other issues in regards to the installation fee, that only were resolved in April or May. Up until then, even if you had a fiber installed home, OE could not identify that, if it was inactive.

So if a provider re-activated said fiber, it cost the full installation fee. An engineer was send out, even though it could have been enabled remotely.

/M

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

By hoping, that people don't switch and recouping the remainder in year 2. There is a reason, that they stopped offering free installation. It got way too expensive for them.

/M

oh right, so there was a time that eir were offering free installation on FTTH then?

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

oh right, so there was a time that eir were offering free installation on FTTH then?

Yes .. for over a year. And it cost them ... a lot.

/M

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

Yes .. for over a year. And it cost them ... a lot.

/M

looking at the bigger picture ... and long term though (and long term subscription) they would (should) make their money back though eh? - even if they kept a customer for 18months and they did change after 18 months they have made a fair packet .

I understand its discounted at 99eur now - but still think its pricey to start off with (and unappealing to others thinking of getting it too, and this could effect uptake) - and also now they (eir) are charging 30eur on top for connection now are they not?

So, taking into account some Fixed Wireless providers now are offering to install the dish and the gubbings for around 50eur now these days and no connection fees (granted no-where near as fast as FTTH) still might be more appealing?

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

looking at the bigger picture ... and long term though (and long term subscription) they would (should) make their money back though eh? - even if they kept a customer for 18months and they did change after 18 months they have made a fair packet .

No they didn't. They had to pay OpenEIR (even though internally) over 300 for the installation and they were giving customers another 200 towards breaking contract with other providers.

That's over 500 EUR loss to begin with. And then the price for the free router. They would only start making money after about 24 months at that rate. The first 2 years would be a loss.

After 6-8 months, they increased the pricing by 6 EUR on most customers. So that meant, those customers could change provider to more competitive providers.

/M

fritzelly

Marlow wrote: »

Yes .. for over a year. And it cost them ... a lot.

/M

But did it...

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

But did it...

The big question is, if that money changed hands internally or how it was accounted for bi-lateral. If it didn't then it's down to an investigative action by Comreg. And that can still backfire on them.

By regulation, Eir retail has to pay OpenEIR the same money as other operators. (for regulated products that is).

There is a reason, that they had to add the intsallation fee back in.

/M

The Cush

Marlow wrote: »

OpenEIRs wholesale pricing is 272.50 + VAT all in. That's over 300 EUR to the operator.

From next Jan they propose to raise the connection fee to €294 +VAT

fritzelly

Marlow wrote: »

The big question is, if that money changed hands internally or how it was accounted for bi-lateral. If it didn't then it's down to an investigative action by Comreg. And that can still backfire on them.

By regulation, Eir retail has to pay OpenEIR the same money as other operators. (for regulated products that is).

There is a reason, that they had to add the intsallation fee back in.

/M

Point is it doesn't really matter as the "group" is still making money - this is why they should be totally separate entities. eir retail could be losing money hand over fist but it wouldn't really matter (well it would) if it's still supported by the parent company. End of the day the shareholders are still making money.
As the Airwire reps have said before they make money with repeat custom (loyalty thru good service), eir rely on people not leaving (because they know no better) to make money.

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

eir rely on people not leaving (because they know no better) to make money.

Yup. And that strategy isn't making them enough money. Otherwise they wouldn't have to fire their support provider and in source all support personal again. There's even rumours of KN also getting the boot within the next year.

/M

Westnet: Paul

tuxy wrote: »

I doubt anyone can offer free installs...

*ahem* :pac:

fritzelly

Marlow wrote: »

Yup. And that strategy isn't making them enough money. Otherwise they wouldn't have to fire their support provider and in source all support personal again. There's even rumours of KN also getting the boot within the next year.

/M

Don't know all the politics of that, some of the reasons are more excuses for doing it. HCL was making no money out of it (more a presence in Ireland was the desirable reason is what I was told). A lot of the people trying to contact eir directly (as reported) were people trying to get connected - end of the day not an eir retail issue but an openeir issue - been the same for decades. Not discounting all the crap with billing issues etc but they were a minority. A lot of people don't realise until you are a customer of eir there is diddly squat comreg can do about it. Comreg is not a complaints system, they are there for issues with your provider and provider being the key word
KN hiring big time, seems they have got a big contract (?) - dont know the details. Tallies with the buy out/investment in

The Cush

Another step on the road to the transition from copper to fibre, open-eir has added a 256k FTTH VoBB profile

Marlow

The Cush wrote: »

Another step on the road to the transition from copper to fibre, open-eir has added a 256k FTTH VoBB profile

I wonder, when the 100M, 250M and 400M profiles are going to turn up.

But yes ... 256k allows for 4 x 64 kbit/s ISDN channels without compression.

/M

tuxy

Westnet: Paul wrote: »

*ahem* :pac:

Apologies Paul.
I'm sure it's been asked but does westnet have any plans to offer ftth nationally on the openeir network?

fritzelly

Marlow wrote: »

I wonder, when the 100M, 250M and 400M profiles are going to turn up.

But yes ... 256k allows for 4 x 64 kbit/s ISDN channels without compression.

/M

Hold on - what is the point of that? Is it some backward compatibility?

tuxy

For someone who wants a standard phone connection only perhaps?

It seems pointless installing copper lines if there is ftth available.

The Cush

fritzelly wrote: »

Hold on - what is the point of that? Is it some backward compatibility?

Direct fibre replacement for a standalone copper telephone line when they decide to switch off the copper network.

Andy From Sligo

Westnet: Paul wrote: »

*ahem* :pac:

I'm going with paul ...... when I can order that is! LOL - dont want to be a negative sod but i bet by the time I can order paul will decide they are loosing too much money offfering free installs and eir will have put their prices up to 270+vat - its just my bloody luck lately!

I keep telling myself "must keep positive!"

fritzelly

The Cush wrote: »

Direct fibre replacement for a standalone copper telephone line when they decide to switch off the copper network.

Hmm don't follow that reasoning. Pointless offering such a pathetic profile when they could be switched to something better, fibre could handle multitudes of phone calls, data well not going there.
Should be offering packages with say for example 20 lines in/out on the fibre not sticking with decades old technology requirements.

tsue921i8wljb3

fritzelly wrote: »

Hmm don't follow that reasoning. Pointless offering such a pathetic profile when they could be switched to something better, fibre could handle multitudes of phone calls, data well not going there.
Should be offering packages with say for example 20 lines in/out on the fibre not sticking with decades old technology requirements.

It is a direct digital replacement for a typical analogue residential phone line. The people it is aimed at will not be wanting 20 lines. It is basically the first step in allowing them to rip the copper out.

Andy From Sligo

The Cush wrote: »

Direct fibre replacement for a standalone copper telephone line when they decide to switch off the copper network.

ooh , it reminds me when they turned off analog UHF for freeview/saorview ... when was that 2012 or something wasnt it?

its going to be much more exciting turning off POTS for FTTH though

The Cush

fritzelly wrote: »

Hmm don't follow that reasoning. Pointless offering such a pathetic profile when they could be switched to something better, fibre could handle multitudes of phone calls, data well not going there.

I know of households that have a plain old telephone service with no interest in internet, it'll be for those people.

fritzelly

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

It is a direct digital replacement for a typical analogue residential phone line. The people it is aimed at will not be wanting 20 lines. It is basically the first step in allowing them to rip the copper out.

Sorry I still don't get it - who (this is obviously businesses) has a need for purely that profile. They are likely gonna have BB, LL's plus whatever else that may be running on ISDN (likely some hardware upgrades maybe).
Seems pointless having that profile as an option that you, as it would seem, "add on" to your package

fritzelly

The Cush wrote: »

I know of households that have a plain old telephone service with no interest in internet, it'll be for those people.

Hmm nope this is totally different from POTS, ohh maybe subsequent comments are diverging my reading - still makes no sense. Plus OE don't offer POTS on fibre yet and makes no sense to even offer it yet due to the cost.
If you don't want BB and no copper there then makes more sense to offer wireless to those outliers

tsue921i8wljb3

fritzelly wrote: »

Sorry I still don't get it - who (this is obviously businesses) has a need for purely that profile. They are likely gonna have BB, LL's plus whatever else that may be running on ISDN (likely some hardware upgrades maybe).
Seems pointless having that profile as an option that you, as it would seem, "add on" to your package

It is not about who needs it. It is so they can say to Comreg "look we have a replacement technology for our USO for POTS. Get the consultation started so that we can begin removing copper".

Also there are people that only have landlines and only ever will have landlines. These people have to be catered for.

fritzelly

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

It is not about who needs it. It is so they can say to Comreg "look we have a replacement technology for our USO for POTS. Get the consultation started so that we can begin removing copper".

Maybe I read it wrong but I thought the purpose was to remove copper as an option for a phone line (currently free within budget) and offer fibre only and with that the associated costs you pay to have it installed? i.e. we don't install copper any more and you have to pay for fibre and btw why not get great BB at the same time

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

Also there are people that only have landlines and only ever will have landlines. These people have to be catered for.

This demographic likely already have a copper line and no reason to remove it til they leave the house and the next occupants want FTTH. Maintaining the current copper lines is not that much of an expense. Fixing them different story
As already discussed either here or on the NBP thread there is no way in hell they could replace all the copper in the country for the long foreseeable future.

tsue921i8wljb3

fritzelly wrote: »

Maybe I read it wrong but I thought the purpose was to remove copper as an option for a phone line (currently free within budget) and offer fibre only and with that the associated costs you pay to have it installed? i.e. we don't install copper any more and you have to pay for fibre and btw why not get great BB at the same time



This demographic likely already have a copper line and no reason to remove it til they leave the house and the next occupants want FTTH. Maintaining the current copper lines is not that much of an expense. Fixing them different story
As already discussed either here or on the NBP thread there is no way in hell they could replace all the copper in the country for the long foreseeable future.

Well open eir have seen fit to introduce such a profile at this time. Whether it is for regulatory or commercial reasons I don't know.

The Comreg commissioner recently said:

The USO is there to protect vulnerable users, to provide a basic telephone service. Of course this can be provided over fibre, as well as over copper.

But our fundamental objective will be that people who only want a voice service can get that.

So, if people are buying a bundle of broadband and voice, we'd be a bit concerned about the people who only have a telephone line and want to keep on just having a telephone line. There must be an alternative for them.

It's not that we think you should have a right to a copper line forever.

But if a USO is justified, then they still have the right to have a telephone service.

And if there's going to be a change in technology to provide that, they shouldn't be unduly disadvantaged, they shouldn't have to pay money for the change.

You'd have to think it is something related to that.

Marlow

There are boatloat of reasons for this:

a) it provides a voice product, that can be provided independently from FTTH. It is aimed as SMEs, that otherwise would have ordered a fractional PRI / PRA or 2 BRIs, which also require copper.

b) these business may not opt for FTTH due to contention, but would instead opt for a NGN circuit. And in-band VoIP or VoBB is not of their interest.

c) there are still services, that require a phone line. Fax over VoIP is highly instable and not suited for big volume. Also, some business still do require data calls: ISDN to ISDN, ISDN to GSM, analogue data to GSM. This in in cases, where neither GPRS, nor EDGE, 3G or 4G are an option..

d) legacy phone systems, who have PRI/PRA or BRI interfaces. You don't just rip an expensive phone system out and replace it with something new. ESPECIALLY, when we're talking a SME.

e) OpenEIR is not prepared to roll out any more copper plant to new developments. This was made clear months ago. They are now only rolling out fiber plant for new developments. For this they need to provide phone circuitry. GSM solutions are not reliable enough for SMEs and larger businesses.

etc. etc. etc.

/M

Andy From Sligo

makes you wonder if eir ripped out all the copper out of Ireland off the poles and everything and sold it off as scrap how much money they could get and plough it back into the system/infrastructure ...