Eir rural FTTH thread II

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

That can happen with anything tbh, aerial etc

It doesn't matter, if it's underground, when the majority of OpenEIRs copper network is over ground.

It's also energized at 48v+ and is grounded differently to the electrical network, due to legacy reason.

That is, why it's hit by lightning so often ... opposed to other things.

As for fixed wireless aerials .. i've yet to see one that has been hit by lightning. And I've been around fixed wireless for over 20 years. Those antennas are low powered (7 to 24V at the most) with very little current and usually get fried through from the bottom up.

Here's your most common scenario: lightning hits overhead telecommunications line along the road .. travels along the phone line into the premise (disregardless if over ground or under ground), then hits the DSL modem, answering machine, DECT phone ... which also is connected to the power socket in the house.

From here all your other appliances including your fixed wireless broadband antenna get fried. But the culprit was the phone line ... in nearly every single case.

The good news: FTTH removes that issues entirely.

/M

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

It doesn't matter, if it's underground, when the majority of OpenEIRs copper network is over ground.

It's also energized at 48v+ and is grounded differently to the electrical network, due to legacy reason.

That is, why it's hit by lightning so often ... opposed to other things.

As for fixed wireless aerials .. i've yet to see one that has been hit by lightning. And I've been around fixed wireless for over 20 years. Those antennas are low powered (7 to 24V at the most) with very little current and usually get fried through from the bottom up.

Here's your most common scenario: lightning hits overhead telecommunications line along the road .. travels along the phone line into the premise (disregardless if over ground or under ground), then hits the DSL modem, answering machine, DECT phone ... which also is connected to the power socket in the house.

From here all your other appliances including your fixed wireless broadband antenna get fried. But the culprit was the phone line ... in nearly every single case.

The good news: FTTH removes that issues entirely.

/M

But not in the scenario outlined earlier, which was a disconnected, unused copper cable.

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

But not in the scenario outlined earlier, which was a disconnected, unused copper cable.

In that case, it's still a fire hazard ... as others have attested to. Even when nothing is connected, your phone socket blows of the wall and the cabling can go up in fire. In the case of a wood frame house, it's a real issue.

I've seen one particular house, where half the wall, that the phone socket was mounted on, had burn marks. And also that was in the case of somebody who didn't have phone service anymore.

Don't play this down. You accused me of promoting theft without even asking about my reasoning. Others clearly have shown examples of the damage, that can be done, subsequently. I would expect an apology by now, but that's neither here nor there, because it has nothing to do with what the thread is about.

And by your definition, you can't even physically disconnect the copper cable either end .. or you will have to re-attach it after using it to bring the rope in. Because leaving it disconnected (physically) it would be considered tampering with telecommunications infrastructure .. by your definition.

/M

ED E

I'm with Johnboy here. Had experience of maybe 20-50 line strikes in my time and without fail the CPE was involved as a path to ground. No CPE and the current travels back "up" the network to the next gas block or grounding.

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

In that case, it's still a fire hazard ... as others have attested to. Even when nothing is connected, your phone socket blows of the wall and the cabling can go up in fire. In the case of a wood frame house, it's a real issue.

I've seen one particular house, where half the wall, that the phone socket was mounted on, had burn marks. And also that was in the case of somebody who didn't have phone service anymore.

Don't play this down. You accused me of promoting theft without even asking about my reasoning. Others clearly have shown examples of the damage, that can be done, subsequently. I would expect an apology by now, but that's neither here nor there, because it has nothing to do with what the thread is about.

/M

Indeed I did, based on this, which you did not retract or try to explain that was not what you meant.

He is not allowed, by law, to remove the old phone cable. There is legislation, that prevents OpenEIR from removing the copper line. It has to remain there for other service providers to use.

So the only way, you'd work that one, is that you pull a rope through using the phone line. If it's gone, it's gone. But KN can't touch it.

It was not that you did not know what you were promoting.

Marlow

There's a difference here.

The operator is not allowed to remove telecommunications infrastructure, that is in place. So that other operator may utilize this. KN is part of the operator as contractor of OpenEIR.

You however, as the end-user, can remove that copper line within your premise and are not covered by that law. So you're not breaking any laws there. That is because you're making your own choice not to use that infrastructure anymore. It does not affect other telecommunication users.

If OpenEIR wanted to have the legal right to this telecommunications infrastructure on your property, then they would also have to maintain it. Including the duct, that brings it to your home. Since they require you to deal with that, it's not their property.

Another reason, why they can't remove it is for the same reason: it's on your property.

Take SIRO as another example: they bring the fibre all the way to the ESB meter. They will take care of all civils and build obstacles to this point and cover the cost. And you're, by law, not allowed to tamper with that infrastructure. It does not belong to you. It belongs to the ESB.

/M

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

There's a difference here.

The operator is not allowed to remove telecommunications infrastructure, that is in place. So that other operator may utilize this. KN is part of the operator as contractor of OpenEIR.

You however, as the end-user, can remove that copper line within your premise and are not covered by that law. So you're not breaking any laws there. That is because you're making your own choice not to use that infrastructure anymore. It does not affect other telecommunication users.

If OpenEIR wanted to have the legal right to this telecommunications infrastructure on your property, then they would also have to maintain it. Including the duct, that brings it to your home. Since they require you to deal with that, it's not their property.

Another reason, why they can't remove it is for the same reason: it's on your property.

Take SIRO as another example: they bring the fibre all the way to the ESB meter. They will take care of all civils and build obstacles to this point and cover the cost. And you're, by law, not allowed to tamper with that infrastructure. It does not belong to you. It belongs to the ESB.

/M

And how, do tell, can you remove the cable, which you do NOT own, without it being theft? What law gives you that right?

Also how can this lawfully be done by the home owner without interfering with the infrastructure to which it is attached?

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

And how, do tell, can you remove the cable, which you do NOT own, without it being theft? What law gives you that right?

Also how can this lawfully be done by the home owner without interfering with the infrastructure to which it is attached?

The second, they pushed not only the cost of the ducting but also the task of establishing the ducting on to the property owner, they became a "tenant" of said ducting. Not an owner.

That means, if the cabling is not utilized anymore, the owner of the ducting (the property owner) can legally remove it. But OpenEIR can't. That's an entire different piece of legislation.

They are not a state owned telco, so they have no incumbent rights. The ESB has however.

/M

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

And how, do tell, can you remove the cable, which you do NOT own, without it being theft? What law gives you that right?

Also how can this lawfully be done by the home owner without interfering with the infrastructure to which it is attached?

Marlow wrote: »

The second, they pushed not only the cost of the ducting but also the task of establishing the ducting on to the property owner, they became a "tenant" of said ducting. Not an owner.

That means, if the cabling is not utilized anymore, the owner of the ducting (the property owner) can legally remove it. But OpenEIR can't. That's an entire different piece of legislation.

They are not a state owned telco, so they have no incumbent rights. The ESB has however.

/M

Neither question answered.

fritzelly

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Neither question answered.

There is nothing stopping an homeowner pulling the cable away from their house and leaving it at the side of the road/inside the chamber. They are not stealing it just removing it from their property. This would be very different if they were interfering with a pole and cabling on their land that they had already signed a wayleave for providing a network to other premises.
Removal of that copper line would not be interfering with the OE network

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Neither question answered.

Well ... then lets define this: what infrastructure are you talking about ?

You as a property owner paid for the ducting, the civils, the ETU and getting it all in place. You then paid a telecommunications company (typically 150 EUR) to get a copper line installed into your premise.

This copper line runs from the distribution point to the master socket in your home. If you were to tamper with the distribution point, you clearly were in legal bother. Because that does not only affect you, but also others.

If you however disconnect the phone line between the distribution point and your master socket, you only affect your own premise. You have every right to remove "unwanted tenants" from your premise, once their contractual obligations have expired.

It's your property. Now, yes .. the operator who installed said copper could come back for that piece of copper ... which you actually paid for .. but that's about it. Removing it, is not theft. Not returning it, when asked for it, that's another matter.

/M

fritzelly

Marlow wrote: »

You have every right to remove "unwanted tenants" from your premise, once their contractual obligations have expired.

Probably a good point there - if you are in contract and remove the copper line in anticipation of fibre being installed (for example) and the fibre is delayed for months then you are responsible for paying to get that reconnected as you have wilfully disconnected yourself from the network and will still be liable to see out your contract even tho you have no service - so a bit of a warning there for anyone thinking of doing it.
TBH I would say anyone wanting fibre and chomping at the bit for it then pay to get new ducting installed (with KNN its only an extra 30 euro a month for 12 months) or do it yourself (it's not rocket science stuff, just a bit of manual labour)

Johnboy1951

fritzelly wrote: »

There is nothing stopping an homeowner pulling the cable away from their house and leaving it at the side of the road/inside the chamber. They are not stealing it just removing it from their property. This would be very different if they were interfering with a pole and cabling on their land that they had already signed a wayleave for providing a network to other premises.
Removal of that copper line would not be interfering with the OE network

As I understand it you are not, as a member of the public, allowed to even lift the cover of the chamber.
You also make no allowance for what might occur to the 'live' ends of the cable you leave lying about that could cause interference to other users.

In any case you have given permission to eircom/successor to lay their cable in the duct, and cannot lawfully remove their cable without going through a procedure to have that permission withdrawn.
It might not be in writing, but try telling that to a court of law!

tsue921i8wljb3

As exciting as this removing a copper cable discussion is maybe it's time for a change of topic. Were any of our ISP friends at this event?

https://twitter.com/openeir/status/1045681370050301952

fritzelly

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It might not be in writing, but try telling that to a court of law!

And there is the crux - if it's not in writing it aint worth crap in court!

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

In any case you have given permission to eircom/successor to lay their cable in the duct, and cannot lawfully remove their cable without going through a procedure to have that permission withdrawn.
It might not be in writing, but try telling that to a court of law!

OpenEIRs infrastructure has to cope with shorted cables. By definition. If it didn't, they'd be out of business in no time. Because those cables break all the time ... without somebody removing it.

Also, the laws you refer to don't apply in the same manner anymore, since Eircom/OpenEIR/Eir is not state owned. Your thinking refers to Eircom as being state owned. Those days are gone the way of the dodo.

So once you cancel your contract with them, that's it. A court will not pursue this.

/M

Johnboy1951

fritzelly wrote: »

And there is the crux - if it's not in writing it aint worth crap in court!

Incorrect.

It is then open to interpretation, which will be based on the fact that permission was granted and never questioned over the years, and the service it provided used in the interim.

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Incorrect.

It is then open to interpretation, which will be based on the fact that permission was granted and never questioned over the years, and the service it provided used in the interim.

Not quite. Because the fact remains: you own the ducting. They don't. And their procedures make that clear.

But trust me. There isn't a chance, that OpenEIR would bring it to court. Because they'd set a precedence if they lost, that would bring them into bigger trouble. And they don't have the state to back them.

/M

Westnet: Paul

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

As exciting as this removing a copper cable discussion is maybe it's time for a change of topic. Were any of our ISP friends at this event?

There were four Westnet people there - I'm surprised they didn't warrant a mention.

tsue921i8wljb3

Westnet: Paul wrote: »

There were four Westnet people there - I'm surprised they didn't warrant a mention.

Any craic?

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

Not quite. Because the fact remains: you own the ducting. They don't. And their procedures make that clear.

But trust me. There isn't a chance, that OpenEIR would bring it to court. Because they'd set a precedence if they lost, that would bring them into bigger trouble. And they don't have the state to back them.

/M

So I understand from the above that it should be OK to interfere with the cable, or otherwise remove it, because the likelihood of court action is slim?

That is like saying it is OK to speed on roads where there are no means to detect the offence!
It is still an offence!

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So I understand from the above that it should be OK to interfere with the cable, or otherwise remove it, because the likelihood of court action is slim?

That is like saying it is OK to speed on roads where there are no means to detect the offence!
It is still an offence!

No. You assume, that a law applies. That would mean state intervention.

You're dealing with a private entity here, with private contracts. Once the contract expires, they would have the obligation to remove the copper, if you requested it. Matter of fact.

You're still thinking state owned telco. It's not.

Speeding is a legally regulated offence. Removing the copper to your home is not. (for you as a private individual that is)

/M

Westnet: Paul

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

Any craic?

Same ol' same ol'.

Looking at some figures today, one in six of our customers is now on VDSL or FTTH, as opposed to fixed wireless. That's a pretty dramatic shift from just a year ago, when it was one in 20.

Marlow

Westnet: Paul wrote: »

Same ol' same ol'.

Looking at some figures today, one in six of our customers is now on VDSL or FTTH, as opposed to fixed wireless. That's a pretty dramatic shift from just a year ago, when it was one in 20.

FTTH certainly has made inroads quick. VDSL on the other hand is going to die .... especially seeing that supervectoring is not looking like it's going to be rolled out at all. ... (i didn't say that, did I ?? )

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Marlow wrote: »

FTTH certainly has made inroads quick. VDSL on the other hand is going to die .... especially seeing that supervectoring is not looking like it's going to be rolled out at all. ... (i didn't say that, did I ?? )

/M

Is that Supervectoring news official, if you're allowed say? Straight to FTTH I guess?

Marlow

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

Is that Supervectoring news official, if you're allowed say? Straight to FTTH I guess?

Not official, but the rumours have it, that OE is not going down that route. Two reasons: blaming regulatory delays (which is a bad excuse) and obviously the new ownership is pushing towards FTTH.

/M

shigllgetcha

Does this mean i have the 1tb cap?

Mr Velo

shigllgetcha wrote: »

Does this mean i have the 1tb cap?

No - it's unlimited.

tsue921i8wljb3

Mr Velo wrote: »

No - it's unlimited.

Mine says unlimited and I definitely have a cap. I don't think there is any way of telling for sure from My eir if you're unlimited. See this absolute cluster**** of a thread in their Talk To for examples

https://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2057895884

shigllgetcha if you signed up after the 25th of July you should be unlimited but I know you had installation issues so I'm not sure when your deal with eir actually began. You'd probably need to call them to clarify if you think that you're going to go way over 1TB.

tuxy

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

Mine says unlimited and I definitely have a cap. I don't think there is any way of telling for sure from My eir if you're unlimited. See this absolute cluster**** of a thread in their Talk To for examples

Correct, there is no way of telling if the FUP applies to you from logging in to myEir. If you call and ask them to remove the FUP and you manage to find a rep that know what you are talking about you just have to take their word for it and hope you don't get a nasty bill with €100 extra added.

Shouldn't there be something in place where customers can actually view their contract?

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

shigllgetcha if you signed up after the 25th of July you should be unlimited but I know you had installation issues so I'm not sure when your deal with eir actually began. You'd probably need to call them to clarify if you think that you're going to go way over 1TB.

Be careful if you do ask them to remove the FUP, they may disconnect your service

https://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2057915421