Eir rural FTTH thread II

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

250 is the quoted install price from eir with 150 discount

But that 250 was paid to Eir. If you then go with another provider and they charge you 99 EUR re-activation fee, then that new provider has nothing to do with the 250 EUR you paid in the first place.

The new provider has cost, when re-activating or taking over the line.

And if the line is dormant and not down for electronic enablement, it'll still be a full installation fee of over 300 quid from OpenEIR.

/M

fritzelly

Marlow wrote: »

But that 250 was paid to Eir. If you then go with another provider and they charge you 99 EUR re-activation fee, then that new provider has nothing to do with the 250 EUR you paid in the first place.

The new provider has cost, when re-activation or taking over the line.

And if the line is dormant and not down for electronic enablement, it'll still be a full installation fee of over 300 quid from OpenEIR.

/M

I'm talking FTTH here specifically. There is no reason for not being able to be electronically reenabled even if the line was never used for 5 years unless OE are physically unplugging connections which would seem unlikely - yes the copper lines would be switched, "pulled out" etc but why would they be doing that for fibre? You press a few buttons on a computer and the line is no longer active, want it reactived then a request is sent to a computer and a few minutes later it's working again.

Andy From Sligo

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm talking FTTH here specifically. There is no reason for not being able to be electronically reenabled even if the line was never used for 5 years unless OE are physically unplugging connections which would seem unlikely - yes the copper lines would be switched, "pulled out" etc but why would they be doing that for fibre? You press a few buttons on a computer and the line is no longer active, want it reactived then a request is sent to a computer and a few minutes later it's working again.

yes - you would think ... why consumer charged 99eur just for that?

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm talking FTTH here specifically. There is no reason for not being able to be electronically reenabled even if the line was never used for 5 years unless OE are physically unplugging connections which would seem unlikely - yes the copper lines would be switched, "pulled out" etc but why would they be doing that for fibre? You press a few buttons on a computer and the line is no longer active, want it reactived then a request is sent to a computer and a few minutes later it's working again.

In theory, sure.

Practically ? Do you know how hard it is to explain OE, that there is a line in a premise, if they don't have records of the line ? Even if you have the DP number and ONT serial ?

That's the norm. Not the exception.

If it's not marked for electronic enablement, they charge you a full install. And they send KN out for the job. Even though all the KN guy does it plug a new router in. And until April/May this year, the electronic enablement indicator for FTTH didn't even exist.

I've seen that more than once.

/M

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

In theory, sure.

Practically ? Do you know how hard it is to explain OE, that there is a line in a premise, if they don't have records of the line ? Even if you have the DP number and ONT serial ?

That's the norm. Not the exception.

If it's not marked for electronic enablement, they charge you a full install. And they send KN out for the job. Even though all the KN guy does it plug a new router in.

I've seen that more than once.

/M

well that's their problem ... for incompetence - why does the consumer have to pay for their mistakes?

fritzelly

OK I was detailing the ideal world where OE knows what is where - reality is they've no frigging idea
woe betide if I ever worked for OE, would be so annoyed by how backwards they are.

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

well that's their problem ... for incompetence - why does the consumer have to pay for their mistakes?

The consumer does not buy from OpenEIR. The consumer buys from the provider.

And the provider has to pay OpenEIR the Comreg regulated and contractual agreed pricing.

So it's up to the provider, how he then makes due on recouping the money, that he's been charged to provide the line.

Eir's standalone (undiscounted) fiber pricing:

- 250 EUR installation + 49.99 EUR activation fee

So in the case of electronic enablement, they're charging you a 49.99 EUR activation fee.

- 12 months contract, no other options, no cap

ref: https://www.eir.ie/opencms/export/sites/default/.content/pdf/pricing/Part3.1.pdf - Page 3

Digiweb OpenEIR FTTH installation pricing:

- 199 EUR installation, no activation fee (12 months contract)
- no installation/activation on existing lines (12 months contract)

- 12 months contract, 1 TB cap

Airwire OpenEIR FTTH installation pricing:

- 199 EUR installation, no activation fee (on 6 and 12 months contracts)
- existing line 99 EUR installation, no activation fee (on 6 and 12 months contracts)
- take an 18 months contract and either get a reduced new installation fee or free installation on existing lines.

- no cap

Westnet FTTH installation pricing:

- Free .. free router, too. 12 months contract. But they don't offer it anywhere else but their coverage area because they're taking a serious loss doing that and would go bust very quickly if they went nationwide with that model.

- no cap

And then look and compare the monthly pricing over that period. So some providers may charge more on a re-activation, but that just levels the overall cost to provide the product in the first place.

/M

The Cush

Marlow wrote: »

That's going to change. The likes of Eir have been pushing for a re-imbursement scheme, so that if a customer changes within, I think, 5 years, the loosing provider will have to be re-imbursed for the installation cost. Partially that is, depending on the amount of years since first installation.

Reimbursement Model, over 20 years starting next Jan

Marlow

The Cush wrote: »

Reimbursement Model, over 20 years starting next Jan

Yep. And with that coming in, there will even be less free re-activation options, when changing providers.

It will be interesting, how that is going to be dealt with.

/M

fritzelly

Jaysus over 20 years - seriously why bother for a coupla euro

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

The consumer does not buy from OpenEIR. The consumer buys from the provider.

And the provider has to pay OpenEIR the Comreg regulated and contractual agreed pricing.

So it's up to the provider, how he then makes due on recouping the money, that he's been charged to provide the line.

Eir's standalone (undiscounted) fiber pricing:

- 250 EUR installation + 49.99 EUR activation fee

So in the case of electronic enablement, they're charging you a 49.99 EUR activation fee.

- 12 months contract, no other options, no cap

ref: https://www.eir.ie/opencms/export/sites/default/.content/pdf/pricing/Part3.1.pdf - Page 3

Digiweb OpenEIR FTTH installation pricing:

- 199 EUR installation, no activation fee (12 months contract)
- no installation/activation on existing lines (12 months contract)

- 12 months contract, 1 TB cap

Airwire OpenEIR FTTH installation pricing:

- 199 EUR installation, no activation fee (on 6 and 12 months contracts)
- existing line 99 EUR installation, no activation fee (on 6 and 12 months contracts)
- take an 18 months contract and either get a reduced new installation fee or free installation on existing lines.

- no cap

Westnet FTTH installation pricing:

- Free .. free router, too. 12 months contract. But they don't offer it anywhere else but their coverage area because they're taking a serious loss doing that and would go bust very quickly if they went nationwide with that model.

- no cap

And then look and compare the monthly pricing over that period. So some providers may charge more on a re-activation, but that just levels the overall cost to provide the product in the first place.

/M

Yay - Westnet FTW .. I wouldnt care less even if they said free installation and connection but no free router because I would just use my existing 802.11n wlan router .. which by the way didnt cost me hundreds like some of these FTTH suppliers are citing you get a 'free' router worth 150euro .. whats that all about? my 802.11n router cost me 30euro I think from PC world - sure it might not do 1gb .. but on the other hand I will be getting the 150mbps package anyways , so I dont care.

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

Jaysus over 20 years - seriously why bother for a coupla euro

The margins are actually not great. So every penny counts.

/M

fritzelly

Marlow wrote: »

Yep. And with that coming in, there will even be less free re-activation options, when changing providers.

It will be interesting, how that is going to be dealt with.

/M

Ermm, will that matter too much - you get money back from the other provider if they move to them.
Trying to work out the logistics of how the companies use that...

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

but no free router because I would just use my existing 802.11n wlan router .. which by the way didnt cost me hundreds like some of these FTTH suppliers are citing you get a 'free' router worth 150euro .. whats that all about? my 802.11n router cost me 30euro I think from PC world - sure it might not do 1gb .. but on the other hand I will be getting the 150mbps package anyways , so I dont care.

Well ...there's where you go wrong. And where you create a big support nightmare for a provider.

The router, that the provider gives you, has been tested with their product and it has been insured, that it can pass the amount of speed, that the broadband product is capable of.

You oul' 802.11n 20 quid router might only have the cpu power to process 20 Mbit/s, if you're lucky maybe 50.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Yay - Westnet FTW .. I wouldnt care less even if they said free installation and connection but no free router because I would just use my existing 802.11n wlan router .. which by the way didnt cost me hundreds like some of these FTTH suppliers are citing you get a 'free' router worth 150euro .. whats that all about? my 802.11n router cost me 30euro I think from PC world - sure it might not do 1gb .. but on the other hand I will be getting the 150mbps package anyways , so I dont care.

At that price it probably doesn't do VLAN tagging on the WAN. If not you can't use it as your main router.

fritzelly

Marlow wrote: »

The margins are actually not great. So every penny counts.

/M

But its not about the margins on the install, its the long term rental on the line - like any company that invests in providing a service, it's not all about the cost to provide the service its about the long term profitability of providing that service by charging a subscription. Sell a printer for less than it costs to make but hope you make money on the ink - real story!
OE could easily provide free install and still make that money back by the companies offering better deals and getting more subscribers - radical thought.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

Reimbursement Model, over 20 years starting next Jan

I am unsure how that works from the customer's point of view.

If a customer gets their first connection from eir, who quote €250 (but give that customer 150 discount) then the customer has effectively paid €250.
Discounts to the customer are a matter for eir's accounting as presumably they have to pay the full amount to openeir in any case.

If that customer changes provider every year thereafter how much, on average, is it estimated to cost the customer? €50 per change of provider?

Marlow

It's just a way, where Eir can go back to free installation or only charge the activation fee.

As they're sure, that they'll see their money back (for the installation), if they customer leaves after the year.

Or make even more money.

Also, OE is planning to increase the installation charges to the providers. Costs a lot more in the UK to get FTTH.

/M

fritzelly

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I am unsure how that works from the customer's point of view.

If a customer gets their first connection from eir, who quote €250 (but give that customer 150 discount) then the customer has effectively paid €250.
Discounts to the customer are a matter for eir's accounting as presumably they have to pay the full amount to openeir in any case.

If that customer changes provider every year thereafter how much, on average, is it estimated to cost the customer? €50 per change of provider?

Well that will be up to the provider - a pay it back scenario so no company gets hit for the full charge just so other companies can then come along and pay nothing and get the customer for free. Makes much more sense business wise for companies to compete for customers

Refer Sky earlier where they're only interested in people already connected. Ahem

tsue921i8wljb3

Marlow wrote: »

It's just a way, where Eir can go back to free installation or only charge the activation fee.

As they're sure, that they'll see their money back (for the installation), if they customer leaves after the year.

/M

But now any ISP can now do the same no? There is essentially insurance on the installation fee so if your customer leaves after a year you'll be reimbursed most of your outlay.

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

Well that will be up to the provider - a pay it back scenario so no company gets hit for the full charge just so other companies can then come along and pay nothing and get the customer for free. Makes much more sense business wise for companies to compete for customers

Overall it does yes. Just backfires for the likes of Sky.

/M

Marlow

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

But now any ISP can now do the same no? There is essentially insurance on the installation fee so if your customer leaves after a year you'll be reimbursed most of your outlay.

It depends on how deep pockets the provider has. But yes.

/M

Johnboy1951

I did not pay enough attention to the start date.
Presumably all connections prior to Jan are outside this arrangement.
So it is likely that all providers will be able to offer 'free transfers' from Jan with maybe a small 'connection' fee.

fritzelly

I would be surprised if this is not an eir retail incentive where they are paying for the install and subsequently losing customers but they need to recoup that money to make eir retail look more profitable.
But I do think it is a more equitable solution

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I did not pay enough attention to the start date.
Presumably all connections prior to Jan are outside this arrangement.
So it is likely that all providers will be able to offer 'free transfers' from Jan with maybe a small 'connection' fee.

No. This will be applied to all installations. The start date is, when the installation was physically put in place.

The year on year figure is calcutated using that date.

fritzelly wrote: »

I would be surprised if this is not an eir retail incentive where they are paying for the install and subsequently losing customers but they need to recoup that money to make eir retail look more profitable.
But I do think it is a more equitable solution

Yes .. that's the corner where it came from. They simply made too big losses on offering free install and customers then moving provider after 12 months.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

fritzelly wrote: »

I would be surprised if this is not an eir retail incentive where they are paying for the install and subsequently losing customers but they need to recoup that money to make eir retail look more profitable.
But I do think it is a more equitable solution

I think it's a result of ALTO complaining about the installation fees and pushing Comreg to intervene but apparently ALTO are still not happy with this outcome.

fritzelly

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I did not pay enough attention to the start date.
Presumably all connections prior to Jan are outside this arrangement.
So it is likely that all providers will be able to offer 'free transfers' from Jan with maybe a small 'connection' fee.

I would say come Jan that is the connection fee they will be charge for any customers to transfer to a new provider - cannot see any reason to make all new transfers where there is an existing connection excluded

I assume they will pay back any retrospective dues

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

Well ...there's where you go wrong. And where you create a big support nightmare for a provider.

The router, that the provider gives you, has been tested with their product and it has been insured, that it can pass the amount of speed, that the broadband product is capable of.

You oul' 802.11n 20 quid router might only have the cpu power to process 20 Mbit/s, if you're lucky maybe 50.

/M

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

At that price it probably doesn't do VLAN tagging on the WAN. If not you can't use it as your main router.

I have got 2 routers at the moment a Belkin N150 I bought for 30quid and a Vodafone HG658c (unlocked with O2 firmware) - can i not just put the grey ethernet cable from the ONT into the WAN socket of the HG658 or Belkin and choose DHCP and away I go???

tsue921i8wljb3

Marlow wrote: »

No. This will be applied to all installations. The start date is, when the installation was physically put in place.

The year on year figure is calcutated using that date.



Yes .. that's the corner where it came from. They simply made too big losses on offering free install and customers then moving provider after 12 months.

/M

I think you're wrong about that. It seems to only apply to FTTH lines (paths) which were first provisioned after the effective date (01/01/2019).

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107996404&postcount=3113

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I have got 2 routers at the moment a Belkin N150 I bought for 30quid and a Vodafone HG658c (unlocked with O2 firmware) - can i not just put the grey ethernet cable from the ONT into the WAN socket of the HG658 or Belkin and choose DHCP and away I go???

No. You can't.

The router needs to support Vlan tagging on the Internet/WAN interface. Otherwise it will not be compatible with OpenEIR nor SIRO FTTH.

/M