Eir rural FTTH thread II

Andy From Sligo

digiman wrote: »

I've said this a few months ago but I believe that either SIRO or OpenEir will offer a combined ONT/Router in the next 1-2 years.

The major operators like Vodafone and Sky will push for this, with OpenEir and SIRO set to compete in the same locations from next year this could be seen as a good reason for Sky for example to choose one wholesaler over the other if price is the same.

in fact you can get pluggable ONTs that are basically an SFP that can just slot into a router. Once these become more mass market the wholesaler could issue these as the ONT and still have control and diagnostics from the ONT. It would be a much neater solution and the problems with demarcation points can be overcome with agreement within the industry. This will become a more common approach once XGSPON comes mainstream.

The ISP's or eir or whoever it is that prohibit a retail customer from using their own ONT/Wireless router unit could relax the rules and let people add their own ONT/Wireless router for FTTH

- even if it strictly had to be particular make/model number from a supplied authorised list of combined ONT/Wireless Modem Router at least it would let the customer choose whether they wanted a mess of spaghetti wiring and seperate units or wanted a neat easy on the eye 1 unit - say like if they said one of the ones of the list the customer are permitted to fit is the Huaewi Generic SC/APC HG8245/8247 model

tsue921i8wljb3

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

The ISP's or eir or whoever it is that prohibit a retail customer from using their own ONT/Wireless router unit could relax the rules and let people add their own ONT/Wireless router for FTTH

- even if it strictly had to be particular make/model number from a supplied authorised list of combined ONT/Wireless Modem Router at least it would let the customer choose whether they wanted a mess of spaghetti wiring and seperate units or wanted a neat easy on the eye 1 unit - say like if they said one of the ones of the list the customer are permitted to fit is the Huaewi Generic SC/APC HG8245/8247 model

Just email open eir at fibrepower@openeir.ie with your suggestions. Nobody here has the power to effect change so constantly rehashing it is of no benefit.

Andy From Sligo

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

The first shipment of Fritz!Box 7530 has arrived.



Left to right: 7530, 7560, 7590.

Those 7530 and the 7590 much better looking than the retro looking 7560 - bet they would look even better in black

Andy From Sligo

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

Just email open eir at fibrepower@openeir.ie with your suggestions. Nobody here has the power to effect change so constantly rehashing it is of no benefit.

no, i am in no illusion that posting on here would change anything - am only discussing about what i would like to see happen and discussing that there are combined ONT/wireless routers on the market.

thanks for the email address though - might drop them a line, cannot hurt i suppose

fritzelly

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

The ISP's or eir or whoever it is that prohibit a retail customer from using their own ONT/Wireless router unit could relax the rules and let people add their own ONT/Wireless router for FTTH

Do you really expect ISP's to start testing multiple routers to use on their network so people can have a choice. Then on top of that paying for software that can interact with it, maintaining multiple security and firmware updates, training their staff to deal with all the different ways routers work
And why would OE get involved in the final stage of an install - their job is to provide a connection to the home, beyond that is up to the ISP

tsue921i8wljb3

fritzelly wrote: »

Do you really expect ISP's to start testing multiple routers to use on their network so people can have a choice. Then on top of that paying for software that can interact with it, maintaining multiple security and firmware updates, training their staff to deal with all the different ways routers work
And why would OE get involved in the final stage of an install - their job is to provide a connection to the home, beyond that is up to the ISP

I'd tend to agree with Digiman that if one of the large ISPs requests it it will be done by either open eir, SIRO or both. I'm talking about an ONT/router in one device. The installer would simply install the device as normal. There seems to be a few Huawei devices that are suitable.

https://e.huawei.com/en/products/fixed-network/access/ont

fritzelly

Then the responsibility lies with OE when things go wrong which is more likely with the router side than the ONT

Andy From Sligo

fritzelly wrote: »

Do you really expect ISP's to start testing multiple routers to use on their network so people can have a choice. Then on top of that paying for software that can interact with it, maintaining multiple security and firmware updates, training their staff to deal with all the different ways routers work
And why would OE get involved in the final stage of an install - their job is to provide a connection to the home, beyond that is up to the ISP

im not expecting the ISP's to supply the ONT/Wireless routers - I am saying I would like to see it relaxed so customers can put a combined wireless router ONT unit if they so wish to do so - and i would expect the customer to update any firmware the same way as they do if they bought a router from say currys or whatever from the manufacturers website

- if OE final job is to provide a connection to the home why dont they just put ODP and ONT and an ethernet cable and that it?

tsue921i8wljb3

fritzelly wrote: »

Then the responsibility lies with OE when things go wrong which is more likely with the router side than the ONT

I think router failure is falsely over reported by end users who do not understand what they are doing. But obviously it would need some changes to the pricing charged by the wholesaler to the ISP. Whether that would make financial sense to an ISP I don't know.

9726_9726

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Ha , tidier he says ... Oh for the day soon they start using combined ont and wireless router in one unit ...

"No", commented regulation.

Andy From Sligo

take a new PSTN ADSL line if you wanted it say - you get in touch with eir and they install the phone line for you (if you havent one already) or activate your line (if its idle and not active) and thats it - then if you order say Vodafone at home package (ISP) they send out your HG 658c Router by an post and you as the customer plug it into the master socket and set it up - so simple.

but with FTTH you have to get in touch with an ISP then whoever comes out fits your ODP , then fits the ONT, then fits the Router ... why cant OE/KN or whoever come out , install ODP and ONT and test for light/service before they leave, and an ISP send out a router by an post for the customer to hook up to the ethernet wire coming out of the ONT or let the customer use their own 802.11AC router with Vlan tagging? - why, does the OE (or whoever it is) installer have to bring out and hook up the router at the time if its always worked in the past that customers either buy a router off ISP, or given 'free' wireless router or go out and buy their own router? (or use their existing one?)

9726_9726

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

im not expecting the ISP's to supply the ONT/Wireless routers - I am saying I would like to see it relaxed so customers can put a combined wireless router ONT unit if they so wish to do so - and i would expect the customer to update any firmware the same way as they do if they bought a router from say currys or whatever from the manufacturers website

- if OE final job is to provide a connection to the home why dont they just put ODP and ONT and an ethernet cable and that it?

That's an even further leap, allowing customers to put in an ONT. Ain't NEVER gonna happen.

Andy From Sligo

it would be the first time I have heard (if they let FTTH use their own routers) an isp say "I am sorry we cannot offer technical support because you didnt get the router from us" or "you are using your own supplied router" - and then tell them "it looks like the problem is with your router , everything is fine our end" and then the customer having to get onto the manufacturers technical support website or get a computer repair technician to come out and sort out the modem/router problem .... so why should it be different for FTTH ? - why do customers have to go get in touch with the ISP that has supplied the FTTH package? - especially if its a router problem why cannot the end customer get in touch with the routers manufacturer for connection issues (if light is getting to ODP and ONT unit) and updated firmware or call out a computer repair man from advert in newspaper or go out and buy a new 802.11ac router from PC world etc??

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

why, does the OE (or whoever it is) installer have to bring out and hook up the router at the time if its always worked in the past that customers either buy a router off ISP, or given 'free' wireless router or go out and buy their own router? (or use their existing one?)

Why wouldn't the installer take the few seconds to plug in the router?

Give me a single example of one of the major DSL ISPs supporting routers that they did not supply themselves, I've never heard of this happening. Every new customer gets a router from their ISP it's been like that since the first DSL connection in Ireland and it's still the same for FTTH.

Andy From Sligo

9726_9726 wrote: »

That's an even further leap, allowing customers to put in an ONT. Ain't NEVER gonna happen.

its only another device - if its an approved one of a list its only a matter of plugging in the correct optical (patch) cable with the green plug from the ODP cant be rocket science and then (I am not technically up on it, doesnt it have to be registered on the OLT or something like that ) - is it more technical for the end user as saying hooking up a wireless router to a master socket in the house for ADSL / VDSL and many end users do that all the time without any technical knowlege , just instructions in the router box telling them how to connect their router to a master socket. If people can connect a ADSL wireless router to a master telephone socket I am sure they could plug in a fibre optic patch lead to an ODP point and power it up?

fritzelly

Apart from the fact that most people don't even know what a router is why do you expect an ISP to provide tech support for a router you supplied. One of the reasons they supply the router is because they have the tech back up for that router, they have been trained on it, if it goes wrong they replace it.
Wanna use your own router then go ahead but its on your head and you're still gonna be paying for service every month regardless of what the problem is with the your router

But I am so sick of reading about routers in this thread.

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

Why wouldn't the installer take the few seconds to plug in the router?

Give me a single example of one of the major DSL ISPs supporting routers that they did not supply themselves, I've never heard of this happening. Every new customer gets a router from their ISP it's been like that since the first DSL connection in Ireland and it's still the same for FTTH.

some ISP have charged extra if you want a router off them for ADSL ... or they give you an option to buy your own from wherever or use an existing one but just provide you with an internet connection (or just supplied a non-wireless modem)

If it norm for ISP's to supply a router why do they say in their ads / marketing "you get a free router worth 199euro!" - if there is no choice and they have to supply a router?

(sorry fitzkelly you hate reading about routers - but I am talking about FTTH... in the FTTH thread)

fritzelly

DSL is a whole different ball game, no one said you can't use your own router but you are responsible for it not the ISP

(sorry fitzkelly you hate reading about routers - but I am talking about FTTH... in the FTTH thread)

Preceded by talking about routers.

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

some ISP have charged extra if you want a router off them for ADSL ... or they give you an option to buy your own from wherever or use an existing one but just provide you with an internet connection (or just supplied a non-wireless modem)

If it norm for ISP's to supply a router why do they say in their ads / marketing "you get a free router worth 199euro!" - if there is no choice and they have to supply a router?

Do these ISPs have a name? I asked which major DSL provider does this?
You answered your second question yourself. It's marketing, just like how you get a totally free top of the range phone if you sign up to an expensive 24 month mobile contract.

Airwire: MartinL

We actually offer customers to use their own router. No problem there.

We just make it VERY clear, that we won't offer support for routers, that we haven't tested ourselves. So the reference list is what we have on our website for the product.

Be that fixed wireless, Jet, VDSL or FTTH.

Up until 3 years ago, we never supplied a router (and didn't offer VDSL). But for the majority of customers, the convenience of getting one for us is what they're looking for. Only the most tech savvy customers will provide their own. And some even buy their Mikrotik gear from us, as we keep local stock.

tuxy

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

We actually offer customers to use their own router. No problem there.

We just make it VERY clear, that we won't offer support for routers, that we haven't tested ourselves. So the reference list is what we have on our website for the product.

Be that fixed wireless, Jet, VDSL or FTTH.

Up until 3 years ago, we never supplied a router (and didn't offer VDSL). But for the majority of customers, the convenience of getting one for us is what they're looking for. Only the most tech savvy customers will provide their own. And some even buy their Mikrotik gear from us, as we keep local stock.

Makes sense, the smaller ISPs are always a little more flexible. Andy is expecting some kind of discount for using his own router and I've been trying to explain that's not how pricing models work.

Marlow

tuxy wrote: »

Makes sense, the smaller ISPs are always a little more flexible. Andy is expecting some kind of discount for using his own router and I've been trying to explain that's not how pricing models work.

There are no savings by using your own router.

It either means, that you actually buy decent gear and that you know, what you are at.

Or it means, that you're in for a whole lot of trouble, which usually isn't worth the saving.

/M

Andy From Sligo

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

We actually offer customers to use their own router. No problem there.

We just make it VERY clear, that we won't offer support for routers, that we haven't tested ourselves. So the reference list is what we have on our website for the product.

Be that fixed wireless, Jet, VDSL or FTTH.

Up until 3 years ago, we never supplied a router (and didn't offer VDSL). But for the majority of customers, the convenience of getting one for us is what they're looking for. Only the most tech savvy customers will provide their own. And some even buy their Mikrotik gear from us, as we keep local stock.

thanks Martin - I did not know that , the information that I feel I was getting on here is that it is a must you use the router supplied by the ISP who supplied it when you signed up to a FTTH package and not use your own. You have made that clear now thanks. - quite rightly so I understand why an ISP would not want to offer technical support if a customer is not using the ISP supplied router or if the router is not tested or approved by the ISP.

Now onto the ONT/wireless Router combination - who decides about that device that the end user cannot change or must not touch ? - is that OE or the ISP supplying the package? - its not something I would do (well not unless it was permitted maybe) - but if an ISP let you use your own router - would they let you fit a combined ONT/wireless router all in one approved unit .. or is it an OE issue?

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Now onto the ONT/wireless Router combination - who decides about that device that the end user cannot change or must not touch ? - is that OE or the ISP supplying the package? - its not something I would do (well not unless it was permitted maybe) - but if an ISP let you use your own router - would they let you fit a combined ONT/wireless router all in one approved unit .. or is it an OE issue?

That has been explained to you already:

- The ONT is owned by OpenEIR. It is their demark.
- The ONT is locked into the OLT in the exchange by serial-number and password. If you tamper with it or replace it, you simple won't have any internet.
- If you tamper with it, if will cost you in the form of a new ONT and an engineers visit.

End of story. There is no opportunity to replace the ONT.

/M

tuxy

Marlow wrote: »

That has been explained to you already:



/M

It won't stop him bringing up the same topics again next week.

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

Makes sense, the smaller ISPs are always a little more flexible. Andy is expecting some kind of discount for using his own router and I've been trying to explain that's not how pricing models work.

not at all about pricing - say if the customer didnt like the look of the ISP supplied wireless router .. or felt that there existing router performed better than the supplied ISP router (yes I know these ones supplied for FTTH are supposed to be far reaching signal and very reliable units you just plug in and forget about) but still I just wondered what would happen if you wanted to use your existing one for some reason.

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

There are no savings by using your own router.

It either means, that you actually buy decent gear and that you know, what you are at.

Or it means, that you're in for a whole lot of trouble, which usually isn't worth the saving.

/M

that sounds a bit like scaremongering - what do you mean by that? - that the wireless signal might not be strong enough to cover the building or that it might not be dual band or be just a wirelss N router and not handle the speeds of 150mbps fibre?

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

that sounds a bit like scaremongering - what do you mean by that? - that the wireless signal might not be strong enough to cover the building or that it might not be dual band or be just a wirelss N router and not handle the speeds of 150mbps fibre?

Broadband has nothing to do with wireless. At all. The ISP is providing broadband. Not wireless !! If you can't max your line, your ISP will ALWAYS ask you to test connected with a cable to the router.

What I mean is: the router may not be compatible with the gear, that is installed in the cabinet or exchange. So it may be unreliable. The gear that the ISP provides has been tested with said gear.

Or .. the router might not have the CPU to process the speed, that the line is capable off. Older TP-Link routers can hardly pass 20 Mbit/s. Nevermind 70, 100, 150 or 1000.

Very few routers are actually up to scratch to pass 1000 Gbit/s, when firewalling is enabled.

And if you don't know enough about networking, how would you be able to give a qualified answer, if the specification of the router is good enough for the new line.

It's like buying a Ferrari and then installing a diesel engine from a Mercedes 200D and filling it with rapeseed oil. Subsequently ringing Ferrari complaining, that you can't reach 300 km/h.

/M

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

It won't stop him bringing up the same topics again next week.

no, damn right because it hasnt been explained to me fully - like

what technically stops a new ONT being registered onto an OLT - is it done automatically or by human - if an ONT does not register on an OLT and you have no service, can you put the original ONT back on and get service back without engineer calling out? - a little bit more explanaition and I might get my head around it all, why a new ONT will not work rather than saying it wont work or "you are not allowed to do it"

tuxy