Eir rural FTTH thread II

daraghwal

babi-hrse wrote: »

There's no cabinet nearby is there?!
maybe there's a cabinet they plan to upgrade would explain the reason for leaving your side out?

No, no cabinet nearby either unfortunately. I am connected directly to the exchange.

Airwire: MartinL

babi-hrse wrote: »

What is the process of a port changing between providers on VDSL.

It's actually straight forward. OpenEIR just remap the port from one providers BPU to another on the exchange.

From there on, it depends on how the provider authenticates you (IPoE or PPPoE). The DSLAM won't let any packets pass until it gets an authenticated session. That's after the sync. Anything before completed sync is OpenEIR and has nothing to do with the provider.

Airwire: MartinL

daraghwal wrote: »

The other two neighbours on the road are further than me from the road without the direct line of sight that I have.

Basically, what OpenEIR typically do is:

- if you are served from an underground box, you are passed.
- if you are within 50m of the road network, pole, distribution point that the fibre passes, you are passed.
- if you are further away from the above, but it's known that you have a viable duct, then you are passed.
- if none of the above is the case, then you are not passed.

We have had some success adding premises back in that have been left out because of their distance to the road. This has been done on the basis that it was confirmed that a duct is in place or that the premise owner has undertaken the civils to lay a duct and confirmed so.

But it's a manual process to add a premise back in, so it requires that you talk to a provider who knows, what they're doing.

If you PM me your eircode, I can have a look at what the status in your case is.

tsue921i8wljb3

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

Basically, what OpenEIR typically do is:

- if you are served from an underground box, you are passed.
- if you are within 50m of the road network, pole, distribution point that the fibre passes, you are passed.
- if you are further away from the above, but it's known that you have a viable duct, then you are passed.
- if none of the above is the case, then you are not passed.

We have had some success adding premises back in that have been left out because of their distance to the road. This has been done on the basis that it was confirmed that a duct is in place or that the premise owner has undertaken the civils to lay a duct and confirmed so.

But it's a manual process to add a premise back in, so it requires that you talk to a provider who knows, what they're doing.

If you PM me your eircode, I can have a look at what the status in your case is.

The whole section he is on has not gone live because they are building the M11 through the area. That explains why the premises further out from the exchange are live when his area is not yet.

Airwire: MartinL

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

The whole section he is on has not gone live because they are building the M11 through the area. That explains why the premises further out from the exchange are live when his area is not yet.

If they still are building, then it is likely that OpenEIR may be coordinating part of the build with that construction. OpenEIR might not even get planning/licensing for their network build because of that.

tsue921i8wljb3

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

If they still are building, then it is likely that OpenEIR may be coordinating part of the build with that construction. OpenEIR might not even get planning/licensing for their network build because of that.

You'll see yourself when he sends you the details but the whole exchange area is live bar the section where the motorway crosses then back towards the exchange.

daraghwal

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

If they still are building, then it is likely that OpenEIR may be coordinating part of the build with that construction. OpenEIR might not even get planning/licensing for their network build because of that.

They appear to have everything they need done in regards to the motorway regarding ducting from one side of it to the other etc. The fibre goes underneath the motorway and the area beyond it at the opposite side to the exchange is now live. I am at the exchange side of the motorway and my area is not live yet. I'll send you more details in a few minutes. An unusual situation but it is probably going to be the same situation right from Gorey to Waterford as they get bridges and different sections completed.

Airwire: MartinL

daraghwal wrote: »

They appear to have everything they need done in regards to the motorway regarding ducting from one side of it to the other etc. The fibre goes underneath the motorway and the area beyond it at the opposite side to the exchange is now live. I am at the exchange side of the motorway and my area is not live yet. I'll send you more details in a few minutes.

You are suffering from a complete different problem:
Your eircode is not in OpenEIRs database. If you also can PM me a landline phone number, I may be able to merge it manually in our own database.

No rush though. UG is down for maintenance until 7:00 Monday morning. Nothing that can be retrieved from OpenEIR until then.

tsue921i8wljb3

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

You are suffering from a complete different problem:
Your eircode is not in OpenEIRs database. If you also can PM me a landline phone number, I may be able to merge it manually in our own database.

No rush though. UG is down for maintenance until 7:00 Monday morning. Nothing that can be retrieved from OpenEIR until then.

How receptive are open eir to fixing problems like this?

Airwire: MartinL

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

How receptive are open eir to fixing problems like this?

I need the ard key first to see, if it is a problem at all. As he is in a rural area and his postal address only is identified by a townland, that can be a bit hit and miss.

It could be as simple as running a query on the eircode in UG and it might spit out more information. Or an address search based on phone number and/or name.

At least he has a DSL line, which means that his premise has an ard key for sure. If it was an unlaunched exchange, it would be a total nightmare.

Jakey Rolling

So, I have 2 x CAT5 run from my comms closet to my external Telco box, 2" duct from there to roadside. Shame the ONT couldn't be located there.

If I drop fibre to my comms box, can the installers splice their fibre to mine? If so, what spec fibre would I need to supply?

Reason being I'd like the ONT etc in my comms closet along with current router, switch and patch panels. Also, it's dodgy to drill through behind my Telco box as there's several power, data and RF cables on the inside wall.

fritzelly

The techs have to do the full install of their equipment, no way will they splice into your network.

tsue921i8wljb3

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

So, I have 2 x CAT5 run from my comms closet to my external Telco box, 2" duct from there to roadside. Shame the ONT couldn't be located there.

If I drop fibre to my comms box, can the installers splice their fibre to mine? If so, what spec fibre would I need to supply?

Reason being I'd like the ONT etc in my comms closet along with current router, switch and patch panels. Also, it's dodgy to drill through behind my Telco box as there's several power, data and RF cables on the inside wall.

digiman on this forum managed to get this done. His home was pre-cabled with fibre. You would need to run single mode fibre with an SC/APC coupler. The installer will not be able to fusion splice.

They are not meant to do this but if you are forceful and make it clear that the installation will only happen like this then the installer may agree to do it. There is also the chance though that he walks away leaving you with nothing.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106878987&postcount=760

babi-hrse

Wire this through to where you want it as as long as you can get his part of the network inside a dry environment you should be fine.
You don't want condensation building up inside the coupler if left outside in some box. Wire your fibre to comms room he'll be able to hold his hands up and say I didn't do that the customer did that if ever audited.

babi-hrse

Here are the couplers you push it in till you feel it click
Goes without saying don't touch ends of fibre don't leave caps off if not terminating there and then.

Marlow

OpenEIR have already announced their new proposed installation pricing from 1.1.2019 and that's going to screw Sky majorly with their approach only to migrate customers.

Installation cost for providers will go down by 100 EUR (to 170 EUR+vat .. well .. plus the 2.50 EUR activation charge) .. but it'll now cost the same, no matter if it's an installation, in-situ or provider change.

I don't think the installation fees currently charged will change much for the retail market though.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Marlow wrote: »

OpenEIR have already announced their new proposed installation pricing from 1.1.2019 and that's going to screw Sky majorly with their approach only to migrate customers.

Installation cost for providers will go down by 100 EUR (to 170 EUR+vat .. well .. plus the 2.50 EUR activation charge) .. but it'll now cost the same, no matter if it's an installation, in-situ or provider change.

I don't think the installation fees currently charged will change much for the retail market though.

/M

Has the reimbursement model where operators would get money back if customers left been scrapped?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107996404&postcount=3113

tsue921i8wljb3

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

Has the reimbursement model where operators would get money back if customers left been scrapped?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107996404&postcount=3113

Responding to myself but it seems to have been scrapped.

Eircom stated in its notification that the maximum national €170 FTTH Connection/Migration Charge will apply to all FTTH connections and migrations. Eircom submitted that this charge complies with the principles as outlined in paragraph 13.30 of the 2018 Pricing Decision. Eircom proposed, subject to ComReg’s agreement, to implement the charge of €170 from 1 January 2019. Eircom has further proposed that it will charge this price for at least 5 years. Furthermore, Eircom has informed ComReg that it does not intend to seek a derogation to implement the “FTTH reimbursement model”2.

€170 to migrate from one ISP to another. How is that a good idea? If that gets passed on to customers surely it only benefits eir.

The reimbursement model seemed a better idea to me.

Marlow

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

€170 to migrate from one ISP to another. How is that a good idea? If that gets passed on to customers surely it only benefits eir.

The reimbursement model seemed a better idea to me.

The reimbursement model was a great idea. Especially for providers who were early adopters. Because FTTH customers would have become a financial asset on the books.

The now proposed model only benefits one entity: OpenEIR.

Also, the proposed price reduction on VDSL has been scrapped (was supposed to go down a few quid). So no price reduction on the monthly wholesale charges from OpenEIR.

So, when they start rolling out urban FTTH mid 2019 .. they will have serious issues. Because SIRO is running their promotion until end March and their new wholesale pricing is even better than previously. Next year will also see a change of the portfolio to a more simplified range of profiles ... which put OE to shame.

So the only good thing that comes out of the pricing changes, is that especially Sky will have to rethink their strategy, when it comes to FTTH. This pricing change comes as a lot of Eir contracts come to an end. Which is probably what Sky hoped for, but now can't cash in on.

/M

Johnboy1951

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote:


€170 to migrate from one ISP to another.

So it has cost the customer ~€200 to get an install from scratch, which included (in lots of cases) multiple visits, duct clearing, maybe pole replacement or new poles supplied and erected, as well as the fibre cable being run from DP to home.
Also the the two termination boxes had to be fitted (walls drilled etc) and the connections made.
Finally the connection had to be checked and verified.

So now if the customer wishes to change to a different ISP, who will not have to do any of that work, the customer will have to pay a similar price yet again?

I must be misunderstanding this, as there could be no logic behind that.

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I must be misunderstanding this, as there could be no logic behind that.

There is. It makes it as costly to steal customers from other providers, as installing new ones. There is no correlation to the work effort.

/M

tuxy

Is this a good thing? Eir Retail may see this as a chance to get new customers taking a big hit on the first year knowing it will be expensive for other companies to take these customers when 12 months are up.

Marlow

tuxy wrote: »

Is this a good thing? Eir Retail may see this as a chance to get new customers taking a big hit on the first year knowing it will be expensive for other companies to take these customers when 12 months are up.

It's not a good thing, no.

But it's especially a bad thing for Sky, as their business model is based on poaching other providers customers with initial cheap offers and avoid the high initial installation costs. For them, it's the pits.

Other providers have calculated with the cost of connecting new customers. It won't make much difference to them. It's a balancing act.

But overall this new pricing model is rubbish to anyone apart from OpenEIR. Obviously they'll make more money that way.

/M

tuxy

I see, while Sky were taking advantage of the system and it's ok to do something penalise this kind of practice. The new system is very bad for customers who want to have the choice to switch between providers. Overall a very negative effect on competition.

Also I constantly come across people posting on twitter who think they can only order FTTH with Eir. I corrected a few of them but it's a waste of time, they don't listen.

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

There is. It makes it as costly to steal customers from other providers, as installing new ones. There is no correlation to the work effort.

/M

I would dispute your use of 'stealing'

It seriously hampers a customers ability to choose provider at end of contract.

It is essentially charging multiple times (each time a user changes provider) for the same work, which should not be condoned.

It is also anti-competitive as a provider with a more suitable service might well not be chosen due to this cost.

I would be surprised if this is accepted, TBH.

tuxy

Who gets the say in if it can go ahead? The mighty Comreg?

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It is essentially charging multiple times (each time a user changes provider) for the same work, which should not be condoned.

It actually doesn't. Because the initial build of the fibre costs multiples of 200 EUR. So OpenEIR are just making their investment back faster, if consumers change provider every year or two.

It's up to the provider, what they make of it. However changing providers every year may not be cost effective anymore for sure.

/M

Marlow

Just to put this in perspective:

OpenEIR have invested 400M EUR into the 300k build. That is a cost of 1333 EUR per premise on average.

That's the cost, before the drop line is brought to your premise.

By the time your premise is connected, the cost may well be over 2k to OpenEIR.

So when you come around and argue, they are double-charging the provider and subsequently the consumer, you have to have changed provider 10 times, before that's actually true. Come back in 10 years and raise your argument then. Somebody may listen then.

Until then it's nonsense.

And those figures are assuming 100% take-up. Which we don't have. It's more like 20% take up. So .... we're talking 50 years then before you can claim double-charge. Obviously take-up will increase gradually over the years, but then again, not every consumer changes their provider every year.

Oh. And OpenEIR aren't a charity either. So there also has to be profit for them. Otherwise they wouldn't build the network. So you won't be charged at cost price either (overall). So, if they spend 2k connecting you, you can expect to be charged 2500-3000 EUR retail ..... plus VAT. Tax man also wants money. At those sort of figures any of the current installation prices are a bargain .. even when you've changed providers 2 or 3 times.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I would dispute your use of 'stealing'

It seriously hampers a customers ability to choose provider at end of contract.

It is essentially charging multiple times (each time a user changes provider) for the same work, which should not be condoned.

It is also anti-competitive as a provider with a more suitable service might well not be chosen due to this cost.

I would be surprised if this is accepted, TBH.

tuxy wrote: »

Who gets the say in if it can go ahead? The mighty Comreg?

As far as I can see this is Comreg's fault. The timeline of events is:

Comreg have been looking at wholesale pricing in multiple areas for well over a year.

On the 18th June open eir notified Comreg about it's intentions to bring in the reimbursement model that The Cush posted about.

Then on the 19th October

Comreg wrote:

Eircom submitted a subsequent proposal regarding the FTTH reimbursement model under Wholesale Notification No 12. Eircom proposes that Wholesale Notification No 12 should replace Wholesale Notification No 8 and that it should be implemented on 1 April 2019.

Comreg seemed happy enough with the spirit of the new model and it seemed to fit all their criteria for fairness however the stumbling block was:

Comreg wrote:

However, as ComReg understands it, Eircom’s proposal requires information on when an initial connection was first made to be readily available to all service providers to allow them to determine the residual life of the connection in advance of placing an order and that it may also require Eircom and service providers to implement upgrades to their systems that will track multiple connection dates and amortise the associated charges before the proposal can be successfully introduced. However, ComReg is not in a position to mandate this approach at this time

Comreg's issue with the disparity in connection charges is:

Comreg wrote:

There is growing evidence that the existing regime, where a service provider is charged €270 for a new connections but only €2.50 for a migration to another service provider, does not promote competition and is leading to a slower uptake for NGA services to the detriment of end users.

So Comreg made a decision which was:

Comreg wrote:

ComReg is of the view that Eircom should have the flexibility to recover the customer specific costs of the connection related investments from a combination of an intial upfront connection charge, a charge for migration to another service provider and a recurring rental charge, but that the new connection charge and the charge for migration to another service provider should be subject to two conditions:

(i) The charges for new connections and migrations to another service
provider should be the same;

(ii) The combination of a new connection charge and a charge for
migration to another service provider should not exceed the level that
would allow Eircom to recover its customer specific connection related
investment over the lifetime of the underlying assets, given the same
assumptions about customer churn as are used in the margin squeeze
tests.

Then on the 20th November:

Comreg wrote:

Eircom notified ComReg under Wholesale Notification No.
13 of its intention to charge a maximum national FTTH Connection/Migration
Charge of €170 and that it sought to introduce this charge from 1 January 2019.

Eircom stated in its notification that the maximum national €170 FTTH
Connection/Migration Charge will apply to all FTTH connections and migrations.

Eircom submitted that this charge complies with the principles as outlined in
paragraph 13.30 of the 2018 Pricing Decision. Eircom proposed, subject to
ComReg’s agreement, to implement the charge of €170 from 1 January 2019.
Eircom has further proposed that it will charge this price for at least 5 years.
Furthermore, Eircom has informed ComReg that it does not intend to seek a
derogation to implement the “FTTH reimbursement model”

Based on a review of the cost data available at this time ComReg sees no reason to intervene with the introduction of this charge and has agreed that this charge may be implemented from 1 January 2019. As is standard with all notifications, ComReg’s response is without prejudice to Eircom’s continuing responsibility to ensure compliance with its regulatory obligations

So the new charge is in and has been accepted by Comreg. It is important to note that this charge for migration is charged to ISPs by open eir. It is then up to the ISP if they pass some or all of that charge onto the customer.

I still think it is a terrible decision.

brianbruff

babi-hrse wrote: »

Wire this through to where you want it as as long as you can get his part of the network inside a dry environment you should be fine.
You don't want condensation building up inside the coupler if left outside in some box. Wire your fibre to comms room he'll be able to hold his hands up and say I didn't do that the customer did that if ever audited.

exact same cable i bought, guys can terminate just inside the back door where duct enters house, then i'll be using this patch cable to get to my cabinet upstairs