Eir rural FTTH thread II

babi-hrse

Marlow wrote: »

Yep .. and lightning is no fun, when it happens. And wait ... it actually is not an uncommon event around here. It's actually a major problem to OpenEIR because of some real old fashioned specs how they build their network.

/M

They're supposed to put in a lightning protector if lines span more than 4 poles to house.
An gas filled breaker that pops out if too much voltage hits the line.

Satellite installers have to use a different sateLlight per customer dunno how they're getting around apartment blocks with communial dishes

babi-hrse

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ah right - as you can see I am completely clueless when it comes to networking ....

when you / they say limit is 100m , what happens to it / speed after 100m - is there big fall of speed ?

As Marlow says 100m is the limit
You won't see anyone selling a 150m Ethernet cable cause it won't be fit for purpose

Marlow

babi-hrse wrote: »

Satellite installers have to use a different sateLlight per customer dunno how they're getting around apartment blocks with communial dishes

Those work differently. The property owner has a number of receivers and broadcasts a number of channels via coax or the likes to the appartements.

The feed from the satelite dishes does not go directly to the appartments. And the owner of the apartment block is the one unique customer for the dish.

/M

chris_ie

babi-hrse wrote: »

As Marlow says 100m is the limit
You won't see anyone selling a 150m Ethernet cable cause it won't be fit for purpose

Plenty sell that length and more, just should be cut to max 100m lengths after you buy it

Johnboy1951

babi-hrse wrote: »

As Marlow says 100m is the limit
You won't see anyone selling a 150m Ethernet cable cause it won't be fit for purpose

I have the remains of a reel next to me .... 305m Cat5e ..... and here is a local advert for some

https://www.freetv.ie/cat5e-utp/

Marlow

Ah here .. wiseguys ...

Just because you can buy them on a 1000ft / 300m reel doesn't mean you can operate ethernet at that distance.

Ethernet is specified to 100m .. no more. And most cheaper equipment can't even reach the 100m. At 10 Gbit/s you're actually down to 30m.

That's neither here nor there, because connecting 2 buildings with an electrically charged copper wire is against building regulations unless you're certified to do so.

End of story.

/M

Johnboy1951

ED E wrote: »

Mandatory note: Its not just against regs for the fun of it, copper between dwellings (and thus CUs) is dangerous. You can bypass the bits designed to save your life in a fault scenario.

I guess it could be used if opto decoupled at either end, but the distance is too great in this case for any reasonable use of Cat cable.

Of course a fibre cable could be used between the premises .... the tech is available (I have not used that here - yet! )

chris_ie

Marlow wrote: »

Ah here .. wiseguys ...

Just because you can buy them on a 1000ft / 300m reel doesn't mean you can operate ethernet at that distance.

Ethernet is specified to 100m .. no more. And most cheaper equipment can't even reach the 100m. At 10 Gbit/s you're actually down to 30m.

That's neither here nor there, because connecting 2 buildings with an electrically charged copper wire is against building regulations unless you're certified to do so.

End of story.

/M

Not sure if that was directed at me, but all I did was point out that they sell cable at those lengths, which is true. I even said in my post it would need to be cut at max 100m lengths after that!

chris_ie wrote: »

Plenty sell that length and more, just should be cut to max 100m lengths after you buy it

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

Ah here .. wiseguys ...

Just because you can buy them on a 1000ft / 300m reel doesn't mean you can operate ethernet at that distance.

Ethernet is specified to 100m .. no more. And most cheaper equipment can't even reach the 100m. At 10 Gbit/s you're actually down to 30m.

That's neither here nor there, because connecting 2 buildings with an electrically charged copper wire is against building regulations unless you're certified to do so.

End of story.

/M

would a 'passive' cat5e/cat6 from LAN1 on a router to a WAN on the other router be electrically charged ? - just data would travel down it - if it were PPOE then I thought it had voltage down it...

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

would a 'passive' cat5e/cat6 from LAN1 on a router to a WAN on the other router be electrically charged ? - just data would travel down it - if it were PPOE then I thought it had voltage down it...

Data is electric charges .. on/off/on/off ... it's still an electrical copper circuit. Even though it's bursts and low voltage.

How would you want to transmit data over copper without creating electrical charges ?

/M

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

Data is electric charges .. on/off/on/off ... it's still an electrical copper circuit. Even though it's bursts and low voltage.

How would you want to transmit data over copper without creating electrical charges ?

/M

yeah sure, I've got you

very low voltage. but i suppose because they dont state what kind of electrically charged cable in the prohibition then that could mean any voltage even if its minuscule

I wonder how those pesky famers get on with their electrically charged electric fences to keep their animals in a field!

Andy From Sligo

This is a bit naughty now - just seen this sign on a Telephone pole today. Must have been put up in the last couple of days. - 2 poles up there is a FTTH DP Box on the pole (even though not live at present)




Imagine if you were not technically minded and thought it was fibre speed. (yes I know people should educate themselves beforehand)
Imagine if you signed up to LTE for 12 or 18 months or whatever it is at what would it be about in download around 20mbps would it be ? - would it be as high as that?) and then found out afterwards that the FTTH had become available.

Marlow

They do that everywhere ...

Imagine started out selling ADSL on OpenEIRs network. They have not gone further with that since and don't have contracts for the new technology (FTTC/FTTH).

Instead, they bought Irish Broadband (IBB).

That sign isn't even bad ... the original ones said "LTE Fibre-speed Broadband" or something similar.

/M

tuxy

What is the law regarding putting signs on telephone poles like that.
2 years ago imagine put up loads of them the day before a storm and they were scattered all over the roads.
I asked the local council be they didn't have any problems with it.

Marlow

tuxy wrote: »

What is the law regarding putting signs on telephone poles like that.
2 years ago imagine put up loads of them the day before a storm and they were scattered all over the roads.
I asked the local council be they didn't have any problems with it.

They're illegal as such, but in a lot of rural areas pretty much the best way to advertise.

Once they fly off and lie in the ditch, the person or company who placed the signs there may face littering charges.

Also .. it depends on how they were attached. If they're attached with cable ties, so no harm done to the pole, then fine.

If they're nailed to the pole, OpenEIR or the ESB could sue them.

A lot of Councils will fine the companies, once a sign is spotted. Typically 150 EUR per sign.

/M

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

very low voltage. but i suppose because they dont state what kind of electrically charged cable in the prohibition then that could mean any voltage even if its minuscule

It doesn't matter. It's still an electrical charge. It can carry big bursts from lightning. Meaning if one house gets hit, the other one gets hit too.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I wonder how those pesky famers get on with their electrically charged electric fences to keep their animals in a field!

Electric fences are not connected to any premise at all. They're usually ran of a battery or an outdoor socket. But they don't connect 2 premises. Totally different story. No building regulations involved. Can't even be compared to above scenario.

A bit common sense goes a long way.

/M

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

What is the law regarding putting signs on telephone poles like that.
2 years ago imagine put up loads of them the day before a storm and they were scattered all over the roads.
I asked the local council be they didn't have any problems with it.

do you know I was thinking the same thing - the wooden telephone pole would be property of OE - and as such OE should pull them up of damage/vandalisation of hammering nails and the like onto a piece of their equipment - no-one really should be able to touch a OE piece of infrastructure except for OE themselves or a person/company given authority by OE.

Just to add insult to injury if people sign up with LTE for their broadband it means they would not be signing up for eir/open eir / whatever ISP and if everyone signed up to LTE ... and there was no need for telephone posts etc...
- well who know where it would lead to

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

They're illegal as such, but in a lot of rural areas pretty much the best way to advertise.

Once they fly off and lie in the ditch, the person or company who placed the signs there may face littering charges.

Also .. it depends on how they were attached. If they're attached with cable ties, so no harm done to the pole, then fine.

If they're nailed to the pole, OpenEIR or the ESB could sue them.

A lot of Councils will fine the companies, once a sign is spotted. Typically 150 EUR per sign.

/M

sure 150eur or litter fine compared to other forms of advertising your services might be a more attractive pricing especially the viewing it would get on a public road! - its no deterrent really

tuxy

Will I can confirm that Tipperary CC don't care. I ended up tidying up some that had come loose and were left along my road.
The ones that caused the most problems were not on any pole they had stuck their own small flimsy stakes into the grass on the the side of the road.
As side it was the day before a major storm, no idea what they were thinking!

Andy From Sligo

Marlow wrote: »

It doesn't matter. It's still an electrical charge. It can carry big bursts from lightning. Meaning if one house gets hit, the other one gets hit too.


/M

ah yes I was forgetting about the potential hit by lightening

9726_9726

tuxy wrote: »

Will I can confirm that Tipperary CC don't care. I ended up tidying up some that had come loose and were left along my road.
The ones that caused the most problems were not on any pole they had stuck their own small flimsy stakes into the grass on the the side of the road.
As side it was the day before a major storm, no idea what they were thinking!

When was that? I know of an instance where an FWA provider (not Imagine) immediately got fines in Tipperary for putting them on poles, but didn't in another county.

cnocbui

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ah yes I was forgetting about the potential hit by lightening

No one gets to remember about forgetting about the potential for a lightning strike.

tuxy

9726_9726 wrote: »

When was that? I know of an instance where an FWA provider (not Imagine) immediately got fines in Tipperary for putting them on poles, but didn't in another county.

February 2017, I sent an email but they never got back to me.
That said they have not put up signs since so maybe they got a warning.

Andy From Sligo

cnocbui wrote: »

No one gets to remember about forgetting about the potential for a lightning strike.

well , quite a few people do survive being electrocuted by lightning


- not an expert on lighting but how does it get through insulation on the cable? - it would take a path of uninsulated copper cable and metal to ground infrastructure first , it will take that path first so if you have a length of insulated outdoor Cat5e/cat6 cable running from your house to your shed say or granny flat it will hardly take that path would it?

MBSnr

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

well , quite a few people do survive being electrocuted by lightning


- not an expert on lighting but how does it get through insulation on the cable? - it would take a path of uninsulated copper cable and metal to ground infrastructure first , it will take that path first so if you have a length of insulated outdoor Cat5e/cat6 cable running from your house to your shed say or granny flat it will hardly take that path would it?

Andy - it just jumped 100s of metres of air due to the massive difference in charge between it and the ground. A bit of plastic around a wire isn't going to stop it getting to the ground via the metal...

Wikipedia...
An average bolt of negative lightning carries an electric current of 30,000 amperes (30 kA), and transfers 15 coulombs of electric charge and 500 megajoules of energy. Large bolts of negative lightning can carry up to 120 kA and 350 coulombs.

Claim to fame : I was within 20m of a lighting strike. The shock wave blew me off my feet.

Andy From Sligo

MBSnr wrote: »

Andy - it just jumped 100s of metres of air due to the massive difference in charge between it and the ground. A bit of plastic around a wire isn't going to stop it getting to the ground via the metal...

Wikipedia...
An average bolt of negative lightning carries an electric current of 30,000 amperes (30 kA), and transfers 15 coulombs of electric charge and 500 megajoules of energy. Large bolts of negative lightning can carry up to 120 kA and 350 coulombs.

Claim to fame : I was within 20m of a lighting strike. The shock wave blew me off my feet.

ah well I did say i wasn't an lightning expert now didnt I

fritzelly

Are those signs on OE poles? lol

cnocbui

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

well , quite a few people do survive being electrocuted by lightning


- not an expert on lighting but how does it get through insulation on the cable? - it would take a path of uninsulated copper cable and metal to ground infrastructure first , it will take that path first so if you have a length of insulated outdoor Cat5e/cat6 cable running from your house to your shed say or granny flat it will hardly take that path would it?

Lightning doesn't acknowledge the existence of insulation on a cable. There is so much voltage and current trying to get from the ground up to the cloud that the difference in potential between bare conductor and conductor plus insulation is insignificant. Air is an insulator, which is why you don't get a shock from your 230v mains wiring just by being in the house. Lightning can jump an insulating air gap of thousands of metres.

Andy From Sligo

fritzelly wrote: »

Are those signs on OE poles? lol

they are - and this one on a shiny new not long put in /creosoted post as well

MBSnr

MBSnr wrote: »

Andy - it just jumped 100s of metres of air due to the massive difference in charge between it and the ground. A bit of plastic around a wire isn't going to stop it getting to the ground via the metal...

Also I forgot to add. The massive amount of current has to go somewhere and it'll take the first path of least resistance to ground/earth. However there are probably multiple similar resistive paths to earth from that one strike point - some via the wire to your house via your modem, some down the pole to ground, some along the wire back to the exchange etc.

A pole (or a tree near a pole) along the road from us got hit and the strike traveled down the phone line and blew our DECT phone base, fried the modem in my PC and Sky box and burnt out the Eircom socket on the wall. The neighbours had no issues, so obviously our house was the path of least resistance and we got hit the most.