Eir rural FTTH thread II

THE ALM

Well after all the digging and routin' finally got installed yesterday.

KN crew arrived and said they would have to get an additional pole installed before I told them I had a draw string already in place in a duct, not too common an occurrence for them it seems, they already had been to two or three premises before mine all with blocked ducts.

Explained to them that there seemed to be a pinch point in the duct and to make the joint between string and cable as neat as possible, we also greased it up for good measure.

Had the draw string running into the attic at one end of the house and was bringing the cable across to the other end of the house. Into the attic I went and they called me from the road when ready to pull, bit tight at the pinch point but a strong tug got it through and the rest was plain sailing. KN surprised at how easy it went through, considering distance from pole, and one of the easier jobs they had been on.

Although I have the ONT/ODP (both contained in single unit and not two separate boxes) in the Utility Room I did tell them that it will ultimately be going into the attic and they were happy enough to use some 3M double sided sticking pads to fix it in place rather than drill holes and screw it to wall.

All in all a neat and tidy job, two cups of coffee, with no complaints. Running the test on completion they said they look for a reading between 12 and 17 and at pole it was 11.5 and at the ONT is was 11.79 which according to KN is very good especially to loose so little from the pole to ONT.

Now to dismantle the old 4g antenna, router and switch and get everything moved over...

Johnboy1951

It is good to read that some personal responsibility and preparation makes things much easier on the day.

Andy From Sligo

Our dp's are under a chamber outside our house in the pavement the other side of the front wall. It has the heavy cast iron cover on it with the 2 holes either end for the rods to go into to help lift the cover up .

I have read on here before I am sure whereby an engineer has come out on the day on his own and the customer has had a fail install on the day because one installer man can out in his van and did not go any further with the installation just because the chamber cover required 2 men to lift the cast iron cover and or didn't have the required key/rods to lift the cover off.

Its got me thinking now should I get into contact with my ISP and inform them to inform the installer(s) that the DPs are in a chamber so kn or whoever going to call out and install it send out 2 installers instead of 1 if needed and the things in the van to lift the cover? Or would they (the installers) already know that my DPs are in the pavement in a chamber in their notes?

I would hate to have a failed install just on the day just because the installer company only sent out 1 installer instead of 2 or didn't load the van with the lifting rods or whatever they are. And my ISP did say that 9 out of ten times the installers do come out on the first trip (survey is it called?) And decide to install on the same appointment if there are no problems.

I am even prepared if the installer says he cannot fit on the day because the job requires 2 installers to lift the chamber cover to jump right in there and help him myself to lift the chamber cover if that is allowed. But if he hasn't packed the rods for lifting the cast iron cover in the first place when loading the van at the depot then he might say that he will still need to come back another day with the lifting rods.

What do you reckon, shall I get in touch with the ISP to pass the message onto the installers that the DPs are in a chamber instead of on a pole? And would they be able to relay that info to the installers?

chris_ie

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It is good to read that some personal responsibility and preparation makes things much easier on the day.

It must be fairly annoying for KN landing and finding blocked ducts etc. I'd say some get an earful from customers even though its not their fault!

The only problem I had was finding a guy to inspect/sort the ducts. I'd arranged this before the install. Rang quite a few civils who said they probably wouldn't be able to do it, were already flat out or didn't have the keys for the chamber. Eventually got a fella who knew a fella.

He worked installing fiber previously and we put in a rope from the house to the chamber and another rope from the chamber to the pole. We had to use the phone line to pull the rope down, then pull another rope back up along with the phone line again. Rods wouldn't go through because of the bend at the hockey stick near the ETU.

Would be handy if KN were able to refer customers to people who could sort their ducts upon failure, but I suppose with the number of different areas it'd be a bit of a pain. Then KN would likely still bare the brunt of complaints if nothing could be done.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I have read on here before I am sure whereby an engineer has come out on the day on his own and the customer has had a fail install on the day because one installer man can out in his van and did not go any further with the installation just because the chamber cover required 2 men to lift the cast iron cover and or didn't have the required key/rods to lift the cover off.

With regards to the chamber cover, when the installer landed to install mine he was ringing a few fellas to give him a hand with the install. I figured it was to do with the chamber so I went out and said I'd give him a hand lift the chamber and pulling the cable through. He was fine with it, but I imagine they probably aren't usually allowed do that due to health and safety.

Johnboy1951

I have seen the cover lifted by one man, without any special 'tool' other than what was to hand at the time.

Some installers make excuses because they do not wish to start a job at that time; are too stupid to figure out how things are connected; or are just too lazy to bother.

Most are good guys who do a good job and do it as well and as quickly as they can with the least disruption to the household.

THE ALM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It is good to read that some personal responsibility and preparation makes things much easier on the day.

Agreed, a bit of work on my part which did have me cursing and wondering why I started but ultimately it made life easier and could get it installed where I wanted. Delayed the install a couple of weeks but waiting long enough that it wasn't a problem, fibre to home so can't complain.

In fairness the two lads doing the job were sound and they did say that "generally" (could be a bit of a generalisation) they find the crews from the country will generally spend a bit of time trying to get problems sorted whereas in the city they might turn up, find a problem, and leave.

chris_ie

THE ALM wrote: »

In fairness the two lads doing the job were sound and they did say that "generally" (could be a bit of a generalisation) they find the crews from the country will generally spend a bit of time trying to get problems sorted whereas in the city they might turn up, find a problem, and leave.

I heard a story about a fella who rang to have FTTH installed. Installer came out and failed the install twice for different reasons. Only stayed about 5-10mins each time. The guy waiting for the install had a mate who worked for the same company as the installer. He checked the house one day and could find no reason for it. Rang the guy who failed the two installs and told him to get the install done or he'd report him to the higher ups. Few days later he landed out and the install was done fine!

THE ALM

chris_ie wrote: »

It must be fairly annoying for KN landing and finding blocked ducts etc. I'd say some get an earful from customers even though its not their fault!

The lads doing the install yesterday did mention a couple of jobs that they had been on and it would make you wonder about some people :eek:

Johnboy1951

THE ALM wrote: »

Agreed, a bit of work on my part which did have me cursing and wondering why I started but ultimately it made life easier and could get it installed where I wanted. Delayed the install a couple of weeks but waiting long enough that it wasn't a problem, fibre to home so can't complain.

In fairness the two lads doing the job were sound and they did say that "generally" (could be a bit of a generalisation) they find the crews from the country will generally spend a bit of time trying to get problems sorted whereas in the city they might turn up, find a problem, and leave.

Ye get them 'in the country' also
I had the first guy come out and state there was no fibre available.
I spoke to him and pointed out that the fibre was in the chamber outside my neighbours wall, where his site joins mine.
He refused to listen or check, insisting there is no fibre.
He called out a crew with van and hoist platform etc etc to get the fibre installed.
I spoke to the guys when they arrived in two vehicles and trailer.
Told them the same thing about the fibre.
Cover lifted ..... fibre found ...... call made and they departed muttering about idiots making false reports.

So yeah they are everywhere

THE ALM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Ye get them 'in the country' also
I had the first guy come out and state there was no fibre available.
I spoke to him and pointed out that the fibre was in the chamber outside my neighbours wall, where his site joins mine.
He refused to listen or check, insisting there is no fibre.
He called out a crew with van and hoist platform etc etc to get the fibre installed.
I spoke to the guys when they arrived in two vehicles and trailer.
Told them the same thing about the fibre.
Cover lifted ..... fibre found ...... call made and they departed muttering about idiots making false reports.

So yeah they are everywhere

no doubt, we are a funny breed???

fieldofsheep

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones that I'm actually coming to the end of my 18 month contract with Eir for FTTH, so I'm shopping around at the moment.  Decided to go with Vodafone as they've an introductory offer at the moment of €25 per month.  However, they're still charging an install fee of €99.99 for the switchover (not a full install), which seems to be common among all providers.  I'm just wondering does anyone know the basis for this fee - besides the router (which I won't be using anyway), is there a physical change to the infrastructure needed?  Does each provider supply their own ONT, do they need to physically change ports on the FTTH box on the pole etc?
It's just that given how switching copper phone lines/DSL doesn't incur these charges, or indeed any other infrastructure providers (gas, electricity) where the infrastructure is already in situ, is this a case of early adopter 'cash extraction'?

Johnboy1951

fieldofsheep wrote: »

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones that I'm actually coming to the end of my 18 month contract with Eir for FTTH, so I'm shopping around at the moment.  Decided to go with Vodafone as they've an introductory offer at the moment of €25 per month.  However, they're still charging an install fee of €99.99 for the switchover (not a full install), which seems to be common among all providers.  I'm just wondering does anyone know the basis for this fee - besides the router (which I won't be using anyway), is there a physical change to the infrastructure needed?  Does each provider supply their own ONT, do they need to physically change ports on the FTTH box on the pole etc?
It's just that given how switching copper phone lines/DSL doesn't incur these charges, or indeed any other infrastructure providers (gas, electricity) where the infrastructure is already in situ, is this a case of early adopter 'cash extraction'?

Did you originally pay ~€100 for your install, or was yours one of the eir 'free install' offers?

I am unsure if that would make any difference TBH ...... they changed the rules on those charges in Jan, so now each provider charges a fee, but how much should be paid by the customer is unclear to me.

The total install cost is about €270 if I recall correctly ......

Andy From Sligo

fieldofsheep wrote: »

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones that I'm actually coming to the end of my 18 month contract with Eir for FTTH, so I'm shopping around at the moment. Decided to go with Vodafone as they've an introductory offer at the moment of €25 per month. However, they're still charging an install fee of €99.99 for the switchover (not a full install), which seems to be common among all providers. I'm just wondering does anyone know the basis for this fee - besides the router (which I won't be using anyway), is there a physical change to the infrastructure needed? Does each provider supply their own ONT, do they need to physically change ports on the FTTH box on the pole etc?
It's just that given how switching copper phone lines/DSL doesn't incur these charges, or indeed any other infrastructure providers (gas, electricity) where the infrastructure is already in situ, is this a case of early adopter 'cash extraction'?

Do you know what only last week I was looking on Vodafone gigabit FTTH (not SIRO) web pages and it had 25eur per month , and then 3rd line down it stated free installation * (note the asterix at the end) so I scrolled down where the asterix was and it said 'some instances may be subject to installation charge - no I deciphered that to be that yes if they had to come out and bring the fibre into the house and fit the ODP and the ONT then yes a install fee , but if you already had the ODP and ONT in place (IE the house already had the FTTH installed or you were changing over from another provider) then there will be no installation charge.

Well about 12.30am that night I went back on the vodafone FTTH page and was greeted with 'we are doing some maintenance - please come back later' so about an hour later I went on the same web page and the 'free instalation' was removed and the price was 30per month for 6 months (but 25 per month if you ordered online)

If I were you I would tell them at placing the order "what are you charging the installation for? - everything to use FTTH is already in situ and installed in the house? " -and especially if you already paid initially for installation, why would you be paying twice for installation like?

IRL (but I no way an expert) but if you got the ODP and ONT already in place on your wall all you would have to do is take out the eir fibre wireless router box (what is it a s2000 or whatever it is , cannot remember the model number router eir supply now at the moment - foggy memory) and then just put the supplied vodafone AC wireless router in its place , the vodafone wireless router will be pre-configured with PPPOE and the required username and password and away you go (maybe back at the OLT/exchange they may have to do some switching or something (like switch you from eir to vodafone) but that shouldnt be done physically with an installer coming out or anything. I presume they just change it over remotely on the OLT by computers.

If the wireless router supplied by eir havent locked down the connection settings in their router you could even carry on using that router by putting in the PPOE detail and username (sometimes like vodafone@vodafone.ie or something like that , you can find it on the vodafone support pages for using third party routers) and away you go, you dont even have to swap over to the vodafone wireless router if you wanted to carry on using the eir one (if you can put in your own connection details , if the eir one isnt locked to eir)

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The total install cost is about €270 if I recall correctly ......

Since Jan open-eir charge €170+VAT to each provider for a new install or change of provider. Sky and others I believe are challenging this new wholesale charge in the courts.

fieldofsheep

As far as I remember, I managed to get it installed free of charge before the regular charging structure came in.  The Eir modem isn't locked down in any way, I've replaced it anyway with a Ubiquiti Edgerouter X, all it needs is VLAN 10 configured on the interface connected to the ONT.  Vodafone uses PPPOE as far as I'm aware.

I quizzed the charge with them and was told it was a standard installation charge for switching over without any explanation of what it actually entails.  I've noticed that Airwire also have the same charge for a switchover using existing infrastructure - I was wondering if Martin from Airwire could shed some light on the matter, is it just a case of OpenEir sticking a switching charge in?

As an aside, I've had FTTH for over 18 months, and the two main broadband comparison sites (Switcher.ie and Bonkers.ie) still don't have any FTTH offers available on their sites for my address.

Andy From Sligo

The Cush wrote: »

Since Jan open-eir charge €170+VAT to each provider for a new install or change of provider. Sky and others I believe are challenging this new wholesale charge in the courts.

and from Digiweb comparison from 27/02/19 (so it may be outdated now) they listed these charges for install/connection from these suppliers for 150mbps FTTH:

SKY: €200
Vodafone Install fee €99
Eir Install fee €139.98 when taken along with a bundle
Digiweb Install fee €199 but offer of €49.95 (until 30th July)

Andy From Sligo

fieldofsheep wrote: »

As far as I remember, I managed to get it installed free of charge before the regular charging structure came in. The Eir modem isn't locked down in any way, I've replaced it anyway with a Ubiquiti Edgerouter X, all it needs is VLAN 10 configured on the interface connected to the ONT. Vodafone uses PPPOE as far as I'm aware.

I quizzed the charge with them and was told it was a standard installation charge for switching over without any explanation of what it actually entails. I've noticed that Airwire also have the same charge for a switchover using existing infrastructure - I was wondering if Martin from Airwire could shed some light on the matter, is it just a case of OpenEir sticking a switching charge in?

As an aside, I've had FTTH for over 18 months, and the two main broadband comparison sites (Switcher.ie and Bonkers.ie) still don't have any FTTH offers available on their sites for my address.

I wonder if you are in covered area by Paul Cunnane of Westnet (westnet.ie) their operations are in Castlebar co mayo - his firm offers free installation - sub is 45eur pm - I was going to go with him because that attracted me of free installation but he told me we was no longer in his catchment area.

Andy From Sligo

its often be said before with the likes of sky or anyone who charges subscriptions for their products that at the end of the day these companies make a huge payback/profit from subscriptions alone from its subscribers.

Thats why the likes of sky would send out installers to install a dish to peoples properties for as little as 25 or 50euro and that of course in real terms the equipment (sky dish / sky+ box /cable / installers time) would cost a lot more than that charge .. but that Sky makes huge profit from its customers subscriptions enough to cover equipment / installation / customer support /advertising / sponsorship and everything else.

I wonder why the same model is not being applied to FTTH ? -charge a reasonable installation fee and just make on the subscriptions from its subscribers to cover all costs . - The big well know players could most probably do this.. I know it would be tough for the smaller local provider though, i dont think they could work it with nowhere near as many subscribers.

fieldofsheep

Just looking back through this thread, I can see it's already been discussed:

https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057871133/394

Also info on the court case taken by Sky:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/sky-sues-comreg-over-decision-on-access-to-eircom-infrastructure-1.3765651

I'm at a loss as to why Comreg permitted this in the first place - possibly as the initial €270 connection charge would have been borne by the 1st provider to the address, but surely that's why we have initial 12-18 month contracts?  It's a pain, as I'm used to switching electricity and gas on a yearly basis.

Johnboy1951

fieldofsheep wrote: »

Just looking back through this thread, I can see it's already been discussed:

https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057871133/394

Also info on the court case taken by Sky:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/sky-sues-comreg-over-decision-on-access-to-eircom-infrastructure-1.3765651

I'm at a loss as to why Comreg permitted this in the first place - possibly as the initial €270 connection charge would have been borne by the 1st provider to the address, but surely that's why we have initial 12-18 month contracts?  It's a pain, as I'm used to switching electricity and gas on a yearly basis.

That court case report, dated Jan 21st, had this from the judge ...

He adjourned the making of further directions for a week.

I do not recall what the outcome of that case was.
Did you find anything?

ED E

fieldofsheep wrote: »

possibly as the initial €270 connection charge would have been borne by the 1st provider to the address, but surely that's why we have initial 12-18 month contracts?

You think €270 would be recouped in 18Mo? Haha, no. Margins on retail BB aren't nearly that good.

Andy From Sligo

I dunno where to start, its so wrong o so many levels. the €270 open eir charge the isp's .. a good portion of the €270 the ISP's pass onto the consumer for installation and connection fee... the way they are allowed to charge the isp's the €270 ... the way they are not pulled up on charging the isp's such a high amount and can carry on extracting that .. the way its not swallowed up (or most of it) by the government maybe .

and then in the next breath there are issues of FTTH being available in areas ... but a very low take up! - is it any wonder with how much of the €270 fee is passed onto the consumer before they even use it in the form of installation and / or connection fee ...

Johnboy1951

Most, except very early adopters who got free connections, paid approx €100 connection fee.
The actual cost to the provider was apparently €270
Most providers told customers they would absorb the difference ...... yeah, I know, salesmen/women!

But on first change the customer could possibly be charged €170 which if paid would cover the total cost originally charged to the first provider.

Where is it written that the amounts paid by each customer is tracked so that they do not have to pay more than the actual initial cost?

Information for the customer around this charging scheme seems very lacking.

I have asked a few times on Boards and those I would expect to know seemed not to have any factual information or reference link.

If the customer is to be charged €270 over time, then that should be stated clearly before any contract is entered into.
I know that when I paid the €100 installation charge I was given the impression that was the total amount I would be charged.

There is something not quite right with all this ...... the lack of clear information is not helpful.

tsue921i8wljb3

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Most, except very early adopters who got free connections, paid approx €100 connection fee.
The actual cost to the provider was apparently €270
Most providers told customers they would absorb the difference ...... yeah, I know, salesmen/women!

But on first change the customer could possibly be charged €170 which if paid would cover the total cost originally charged to the first provider.

Where is it written that the amounts paid by each customer is tracked so that they do not have to pay more than the actual initial cost?

Information for the customer around this charging scheme seems very lacking.

I have asked a few times on Boards and those I would expect to know seemed not to have any factual information or reference link.

If the customer is to be charged €270 over time, then that should be stated clearly before any contract is entered into.
I know that when I paid the €100 installation charge I was given the impression that was the total amount I would be charged.

There is something not quite right with all this ...... the lack of clear information is not helpful.

Forget about the €270. It's irrelevant. From now on every new connection and every change of ISP will attract a €170 charge from open eir to the ISP. This may or may not be passed on to the customer.

For example say you're with eir and your contract is up. You move to Airwire on a 12 month contract (Airwire are charged €170). After 12 months you move to Vodafone (Vodafone are charged €170) etc...

Johnboy1951

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

Forget about the €270. It's irrelevant. From now on every new connection and every change of ISP will attract a €170 charge from open eir to the ISP. This may or may not be passed on to the customer.

For example say you're with eir and your contract is up. You move to Airwire on a 12 month contract (Airwire are charged €170). After 12 months you move to Vodafone (Vodafone are charged €170) etc...

So the customer now pays the same charge every time, just for changing provider?
That is so ridiculous it would be laughable if not true.

Do you know what happened to the court challenge to this scheme?

Andy From Sligo

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

Forget about the €270. It's irrelevant. From now on every new connection and every change of ISP will attract a €170 charge from open eir to the ISP. This may or may not be passed on to the customer.

For example say you're with eir and your contract is up. You move to Airwire on a 12 month contract (Airwire are charged €170). After 12 months you move to Vodafone (Vodafone are charged €170) etc...

so 170 every time you want to change ISP - dont seem fair TBH , open eir will pass this onto the ISP and conversely the ISP will more than likely pass all of the €170 onto the customer (or a portion of €170)

Therefore making the customer / forcing the customer stay with the ISP they are already with otherwise they will be hit with this penalty for changing to another ISP.

So people could have to stick with their ISP with shoddy support /service and not be free to move to another ISP which might offer a better service/customer service or offer cheaper monthly subscriptions .. I wonder what Eddie Hobbs would think to all this?

tsue921i8wljb3

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So the customer now pays the same charge every time, just for changing provider?
That is so ridiculous it would be laughable if not true.

Do you know what happened to the court challenge to this scheme?

The ISP pays it and may or may not pass some or all of it on to the customer.

The case is still ongoing according to the Courts website. I see a last return date of 15/10/2019 mentioned. Affidavits have been received from eir representatives and industry experts.

tsue921i8wljb3

I posted about it when the change was announced.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108778876&postcount=5910

tsue921i8wljb3

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so 170 every time you want to change ISP - dont seem fair TBH , open eir will pass this onto the ISP and conversely the ISP will more than likely pass all of the €170 onto the customer (or a portion of €170)

Therefore making the customer / forcing the customer stay with the ISP they are already with otherwise they will be hit with this penalty for changing to another ISP.

So people could have to stick with their ISP with shoddy support /service and not be free to move to another ISP which might offer a better service/customer service or offer cheaper monthly subscriptions .. I wonder what Eddie Hobbs would think to all this?

Eddie would probably advise you to buy a sub-prime ghetto in Detroit with the €170.

ED E

"here is growing evidence that the existing regime, where a service provider is charged €270 for a new connections but only €2.50 for a migration to another service provider, does not promote competition and is leading to a slower uptake for NGA services to the detriment of end users."

AKA Sky are acting the bollox and screwing the other players, we need to prevent this.


If Sky werent being sly since the start of FTTC (NGA) then this wouldnt have happened.