Eir rural FTTH thread II

Johnboy1951

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

The ISP pays it and may or may not pass some or all of it on to the customer.

The case is still ongoing according to the Courts website. I see a last return date of 15/10/2019 mentioned. Affidavits have been received from eir representatives and industry experts.

Each subsequent ISP was supposed to pay a reducing amount, if I recall correctly ...... or maybe that was one of the alternative schemes proposed.

Regardless, providing ISPs the opportunity to charge a customer multiple times for the one installation is just plain wrong.

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

I posted about it when the change was announced.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108778876&postcount=5910

Yes, as did I

But at that time I think it was proposed rather than settled?
(not sure of time line)

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Each subsequent ISP was supposed to pay a reducing amount, if I recall correctly ...... or maybe that was one of the alternative schemes proposed.

This was open-eir's proposed 20-year FTTH Connection & Reimbursement Model from Autumn last year - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=107996404#post107996404

Comreg's Pricing of Wholesale Broadband Services in the WLA and WCA Markets Decision from Nov 2018, see from paragraph 13.23 Comreg's discussion on the reimbursement model. They outlined their position in paragraph 13.47.

ComReg has imposed the following obligations (set out below) and these shall apply to Eircom unless some other mechanism is agreed by ComReg as described below. Eircom should have the flexibility to recover the costs of the customer specific connection related investments from a combination of an initial upfront connection charge, a charge for migration to another service provider and recurring rental charge, but that the connection charge and the migration charge to another service provider should be subject to two conditions:

(i)The charges for new connections and migrations to another service provider should be the same;

(ii)The combination of a new connection charge and a charge for migration to another service provider should not exceed the level that would allow Eircom to recover its customer specific connection related investment over the lifetime of the underlying assets, given the same assumptions about customer churn as are used in the margin squeeze tests.

Eircom notified Comreg later that month of its plan to drop the reimbursement model and move to the €170 connection/migration charge - https://www.comreg.ie/publication/ftth-connection-migration-charges/, with effect from 1/1/2019

The original consultation document discusses the background of FTTH connections charges in section 13.2 Recovery of connection costs for CGA / NGA services

Comreg Dec 2016: Appeal by Sky in relation to WLA and WCA Markets

High Court - Sky Ireland Ltd -v- Commission for Communications Regulation
Record No: 2018/459 MCA

babi-hrse

tuxy wrote: »

It's not extreme when there are hundreds of thousands of homes throughout the country with very limited options on internet. The government sold off the state owned infrastructure two decades ago.
It's not just Open Eir, SIRO and Virgin have also decided not to provide network access to your house. For most people in that situation fixed wireless is the only option.

There are some people with fixed cellular masts only good for making phone calls with eir.
I couldn't believe they would go through the effort. But it just goes to show sometimes no means no.
You could try find out how far the nearest copper dp is and get some cable and string a connection the whole way through the ducts to a 31a Neptune enclosure. ( Looks like a wavin domed top) and try reorder see if ya can get connected. That tends to make a mess of planning as if there's one connection done like that they really dig their heels in and expect the rest to be done line that. But if your positively sure it'll never be attended to...
Replied to the wrong op

babi-hrse

fieldofsheep wrote: »

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones that I'm actually coming to the end of my 18 month contract with Eir for FTTH, so I'm shopping around at the moment.  Decided to go with Vodafone as they've an introductory offer at the moment of €25 per month.  However, they're still charging an install fee of €99.99 for the switchover (not a full install), which seems to be common among all providers.  I'm just wondering does anyone know the basis for this fee - besides the router (which I won't be using anyway), is there a physical change to the infrastructure needed?  Does each provider supply their own ONT, do they need to physically change ports on the FTTH box on the pole etc?
It's just that given how switching copper phone lines/DSL doesn't incur these charges, or indeed any other infrastructure providers (gas, electricity) where the infrastructure is already in situ, is this a case of early adopter 'cash extraction'?

Ont needs to be changed can't seem to re-register it even though it should be possible.
Think the full install fee was to stop poaching of customers. Or sign up with eir get fibre cable and switch to sky for 2.50
On the copper there's issues with people signing up with Vodafone using them for 3 months and not paying any bills then switching to sky for 3 months no payment getting cut off then eir then pure get their name blacklisted then do the whole cycle again with their wife's name then back to themselves with a nickname Rob is Bob John is Tommy or John Joe and they say the last occupant moved out. These people have some of the best lines cause kn have been out to them 4 times a year on their line.
I'd say the install fee keeps people planted unless they wanna fork out 130 plus first month's service every 3 months

fieldofsheep

Vodafone engineer is due out next Wednesday to switch over - I'll keep you posted as to what he actually does re ONT/DP changes.  The issue seems to be quite anti-competitive to me, in every other sector (gas, electricity, mobile, landline) the resellers work on the basis of enticing customers to join them, usually onto a fixed term contract, without an artificial switching fee.  I say artificial because there's no way switching providers is comparable to the initial install (running fibre, drilling holes, ONT installation, DP config etc)

Of course, it can be said that the initial installation charge is also artificial, in that it doesn't represent the actual economic cost to the company in the first place, but again, that's what fixed term contracts are meant to cover, and if you provide a service that people are satisfied with then they will be less inclined to switch.  OpenEir are going to get their money regardless of the reseller through their wholesale monthly pricing.

babi-hrse

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I have seen the cover lifted by one man, without any special 'tool' other than what was to hand at the time.

Some installers make excuses because they do not wish to start a job at that time; are too stupid to figure out how things are connected; or are just too lazy to bother.

Most are good guys who do a good job and do it as well and as quickly as they can with the least disruption to the household.

It is the two man lifts that need a second person and they only give each installer one put lifter. I have been fortunate to source a second one so I just get the customer to help with them. As for D rings those pits are not so common and thus they do not provide keys to everyone. I've managed to open loose ones with a large flathead screwdriver if it's packed in tight there may be no other way. I will admit some installers don't put any effort in at all. They see a problem they call it without trying. When you work rural difficult areas you accept everything isn't going to be ideal so you tend to get stuck in to get the job across the line. Thankfully most who make excuses don't last.

For yourself Andy no point contacting the ISP as he can't dictate to kn resource department your best bet is to ring in before appointment and tell them your fibre connection is going to be under a double man lift and see if they can pair someone up. Or at the very least put a note in

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

This was open-eir's proposed 20-year FTTH Connection & Reimbursement Model from Autumn last year - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=107996404#post107996404

Comreg's Pricing of Wholesale Broadband Services in the WLA and WCA Markets Decision from Nov 2018, see from paragraph 13.23 Comreg's discussion on the reimbursement model. They outlined their position in paragraph 13.47.



Eircom notified Comreg later that month of its plan to drop the reimbursement model and move to the €170 connection/migration charge - https://www.comreg.ie/publication/ftth-connection-migration-charges/, with effect from 1/1/2019

The original consultation document discusses the background of FTTH connections charges in section 13.2 Recovery of connection costs for CGA / NGA services

Comreg Dec 2016: Appeal by Sky in relation to WLA and WCA Markets

High Court - Sky Ireland Ltd -v- Commission for Communications Regulation
Record No: 2018/459 MCA

Unfortunately the links provided only go to search pages and not the publications themselves ...... at least here.
I guess one needs to be familiar with these things to get to the publications.

I fail to see the logic in the charges ...... the cost of changing from one ISP to another, on Openeir is very small.
Yet this now seems to be set at the same price as a new install involving physical effort and materials.

How is a customer supposed to get 'credit' for previous payments for installation charge?
It appears to be set up so that the customer could pay multiple times for one physical install.

In truth, there should be no charge on the customer for changes to ISP as that has been paid to the first ISP they contracted with.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Unfortunately the links provided only go to search pages and not the publications themselves ...... at least here.
I guess one needs to be familiar with these things to get to the publications.

Each Comreg link goes direct to the relevant document page, note the big download button at the bottom of the page on Android and to the right on a Windows browser.

fieldofsheep

In terms of the court action between Sky and Comreg, affidavits are still being filed:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Filings[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SKY IRELAND LIMITED -V- COMMISSION FOR COMMUNICATIONS REGULATION 2018/459 MCA[/font]

06/06/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent PAUL DUMOULIN

06/06/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent RICHARD HERN

31/05/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent DONAL LEAVY

01/05/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent KEVIN BARRINS

01/05/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent IAN STRUELE

29/03/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent KJELD HARTOG

29/03/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent ANDREW CORCORAN

04/03/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent DONAL LEAVY

04/03/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent PAUL DUMOULIN

18/01/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent GARRETT BREEN

16/01/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent ANDREW CORCORAN

16/01/2019 0 Notice of Court Motion Last Return Date 15/10/2019 COMMERCIAL LIST MOTIONS

16/01/2019 0 Affidavits Deponent KEVIN BARRINS

16/01/2019 0 Notice of Court Motion Last Return Date 28/01/2019 COMMERCIAL LIST MOTIONS

18/12/2018 0 Memo Entry of Appearance Solicitor WILLIAM FRY

14/12/2018 0 Notice of Court Motion Last Return Date 28/01/2019 COMMERCIAL LIST MOTIONS

14/12/2018 0 Affidavits Deponent KEVIN BARRINS


In terms of the listsings, it looks like the 15th October is the date set for the next motion:
Relevant Court Lists

SKY IRELAND LIMITED -V- COMMISSION FOR COMMUNICATIONS REGULATION 2018/459 MCA

21/01/2019 NON JURY / MCA MOTIONS 0033 TRA
21/01/2019 0000 XX
21/01/2019 COMMERCIAL LIST MOTIONS / ENTRY IN COMMERCIAL LIST 0003 Order and Adjournment
21/01/2019 COMMERCIAL LIST MOTIONS / FOR MENTION 0000 Adjourned
28/01/2019 COMMERCIAL LIST MOTIONS / INTERIM MOTIONS 0000 Order
28/01/2019 COMMERCIAL LIST MOTIONS / INTERIM MOTIONS 0025 Order
28/01/2019 COMMERCIAL LIST MOTIONS / FOR MENTION 0033 Adjourned - no details available
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15/10/2019[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]COMMERCIAL LIST MOTIONS[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]0000[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]XX[/font]

tsue921i8wljb3

You would have to assume that it is highly unlikely to be overturned by the Commercial Court. An ISP with 13.4% market share (likely to be far less in relation to FTTH) going on a solo run against a decision made by the regulator seems futile. If Vodafone and some of the other larger OLOs had banded together it might have had a better chance.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

Each Comreg link goes direct to the relevant document page, note the big download button at the bottom of the page on Android and to the right on a Windows browser.

I did not scroll down the page to see the second half of each, which held the download buttons.

Thanks for putting me right.

Johnboy1951

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

You would have to assume that it is highly unlikely to be overturned by the Commercial Court. An ISP with 6.5% market share (likely to be far less in relation to FTTH) going on a solo run against a decision made by the regulator seems futile. If Vodafone and some of the other larger OLOs had banded together it might have had a better chance.

Do we have some consumer organisation here that might be interested in adding their bit?

tsue921i8wljb3

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Do we have some consumer organisation here that might be interested in adding their bit?

I'm not sure. It could be argued though that it is not a consumer issue as it is not an explicit charge on consumers.

Andy From Sligo

babi-hrse wrote: »

For yourself Andy no point contacting the ISP as he can't dictate to kn resource department your best bet is to ring in before appointment and tell them your fibre connection is going to be under a double man lift and see if they can pair someone up. Or at the very least put a note in

Thank you. I am not even sure what a double man lift cover looks like but I have just taken this photo of where the DP's are in - does it look like a single or double man cast iron lid on that?

tcawley29

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Thank you. I am not even sure what a double man lift cover looks like but I have just taken this photo of where the DP's are in - does it look like a single or double man cast iron lid on that?

I seen dad lift one single handedly before but I think he had a job with it alright

fieldofsheep

Did some googling/creepy stalking of the names of the affidavits above:

Andrew Corcoran - Head of Regulation, Vodafone

Kjeld Hartog - Director of Group Pricing and Regulatory Finance - Eir

Garret Breen - Partner, William Fry law firm

Ian Streule, Partner at Analysys Mason

Kevin Barrins, Director of Wholesale & Regulatory Strategy, Sky

Donal Leavy, Director of Finance and Wholesale, ComReg

Richard Hern, director at NERA Economic Consulting (not sure about this one)

So it seems that Vodafone and Eir (Retail)  are involved as well - that would be the three biggest resellers of OpenEir FTTH (by company value anyway) involved in the process.

tuxy

fieldofsheep wrote: »

Kjeld Hartog - Director of Group Pricing and Regulatory Finance - Eir

He left Comreg to join Eir.......

babi-hrse

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Thank you. I am not even sure what a double man lift cover looks like but I have just taken this photo of where the DP's are in - does it look like a single or double man cast iron lid on that?

No that's a standard jb4 one man lift you won't have any issues

Andy From Sligo

I took this sneaky photo June last year of the DP in the chamber when there were 2 workers putting in the DP's - but do you know I wasnt around when they lifted the chamber cover so I wouldnt be able to say if one man lifted it or the 2 of them

banie01

tuxy wrote: »

He left Comreg to join Eir.......

It's quite common at director level and above for people to move between Telco's and ComReg and back again.
It's quite an incestuous pool of talent, the argument can made that regulators and Telco's align and know the process, but from long experience the regulatory touch in Ireland is quite light.
It's an all or nothing approach with sharp sudden intervention often on the back of long inaction.

Andy From Sligo

babi-hrse wrote: »

No that's a standard jb4 one man lift you won't have any issues

oh great thanks - I suppose I am a very pessimistic person (so my mrs tells me also) and i even get angry with myself because I know I should be positive but i have been saying things this week like "I bet the duct will be blocked" or "I bet they cannot get a light at the DP" and "I bet there will be a failed install for some reason and they will have to come back" .. and my wife is like "Be positive, it will all go ahead as planned" ...

fieldofsheep

tuxy wrote: »

fieldofsheep wrote: »

Kjeld Hartog - Director of Group Pricing and Regulatory Finance - Eir

He left Comreg to join Eir.......

Andrew Corcoran (Vodafone) is also ex-Comreg - a case of gamekeepers turned poachers?

tsue921i8wljb3

fieldofsheep wrote: »

Did some googling/creepy stalking of the names of the affidavits above:

Andrew Corcoran - Head of Regulation, Vodafone

Kjeld Hartog - Director of Group Pricing and Regulatory Finance - Eir

Garret Breen - Partner, William Fry law firm

Ian Streule, Partner at Analysys Mason

Kevin Barrins, Director of Wholesale & Regulatory Strategy, Sky

Donal Leavy, Director of Finance and Wholesale, ComReg

Richard Hern, director at NERA Economic Consulting (not sure about this one)

So it seems that Vodafone and Eir (Retail)  are involved as well - that would be the three biggest resellers of OpenEir FTTH (by company value anyway) involved in the process.

If you think eir retail will be supporting Sky you'd be mistaken.

manshay

babi-hrse wrote: »

No this can be poor light too say someone is on a 1000mpbs profile and light coming through is about -28dbm that won't show a red Los light but will keep blinking and sporadically connect for a second or two. Poor light on cable or from dp back.

Or the ont isn't registered to the line.
Are you the one who had an install with no light then they did some work on line and it started blinking after that. If so you need to get your ont registered. Baffling that it was not done yet as it literally takes 6 seconds to port up on it.

I had a no light install on 15 May, a few days later the PON started flashing green.
KN were booked to come out again on 4th June but cancelled cause openeir told them the local infrastructure wasn't working.(which doesn't make sense according to openeir troubleshooting document)
Airwire have escalated ticket to the maximum level 4 request with openeir, they have no feedback from openeir on the problem. Airwire are great from a customer service point of view, they actually answer the phone, but they are getting nowhere with openeir.

I was private messaging another person from this thread who had a long term in light install problem. He cancelled with Airwire and booked an install with another company which cleared the logjam.

I cannot go to Comreg because there is no contract in place until I actually receive a service, even if for one minute. I'm stuck in a catch 22 situation.

I'm extremely frustrated as it appears the fix is easy and quick.

Is there something I am missing? It seems that openeir are treating a small ISP, Airwire, badly, as well as me! Is there a nefarious reason for this or are they just incompetent?
All advice greatly received.

Johnboy1951

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

I'm not sure. It could be argued though that it is not a consumer issue as it is not an explicit charge on consumers.

Not as such I guess, as it deals almost exclusively in how charges are handled on a wholesale basis.

BUT ..... how will this be interpreted and what effect will it have on the customer?

From my latest read-through it appears that Eircom will charge
€294
per connection to the ISP.
A migration will be charged at the same amount.
Yet in the same document it states that Eircom cannot recover more than the €294.

Can it be calculated how much the customer has paid at the end of 1 year?
Let us say a €100 connection fee is paid by the customer to ISP1.
ISP1 will have factored into their monthly charge, some amount to recover the balance over some period of time. Maybe a year?
No one knows how much!

In addition it seems that Eircom can recover a portion of their costs from within their wholesale monthly charge.

I honestly cannot figure out this out at all.

For instance let us say that ISP1 charges €10 per month more than ISP2 for the same service.
Does that mean a customer has repaid €120 in addition to the €100 connection fee ...... €220 ..... so only a balance of €74 remains.
But if they then migrate to ISP2, ISP2 gets charged €294 by Eircom and the customer gets charged another €100?
What happens with the next change of ISP and subsequent changes?

Nope, I just cannot seem to work out how it is all supposed to happen, and how much the customer ends up paying.

Throw into the mix a depreciation over 20 years giving €14.70 of that €294 per year, and it gets even more confusing.

The ISPs should have been forced to invoice customers showing two charges on the invoice ....... one for the data and the other for the connection, with the balance outstanding of the connection fee transferred to next ISP.
But that would not suit their obfuscations they love so much!

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

From my latest read-through it appears that Eircom will charge
€294
per connection to the ISP.
A migration will be charged at the same amount.
Yet in the same document it states that Eircom cannot recover more than the €294.

You're reading the wrong documents, the figure is €170 from Jan 1st last

tsue921i8wljb3

The €294 sliding scale method has been abandoned (before it ever started). It is now basically €170 for everything i.e. all new connections and all transfers between ISPs. Every time you switch the new ISP that you move to is charged €170.

Andy From Sligo

OK , I just picked up the Fritz box from an post (Digiweb sent it out) for my FTTH install tomorrow .

er its a DSL router they have sent out !! - DSL socket and 'fon' socket and 4 Lan's ... am I expected to plug into ethernet LAN1 socket ?? (does LAN1 double up as WAN?)

I really thought I was going to get a Fritz!Box 4040 with a WAN socket for a FTTH installation...







EDIT: after posting this I found a leaflet inside the package saying connect ONT to LAN1 socket

chris_ie

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Thank you. I am not even sure what a double man lift cover looks like

The one at our house has a diagonal split. They weigh 57kg and need a key for each half.

tsue921i8wljb3

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

OK , I just picked up the Fritz box from an post (Digiweb sent it out) for my FTTH install tomorrow .

er its a DSL router they have sent out !! - DSL socket and 'fon' socket and 4 Lan's ... am I expected to plug into ethernet LAN1 socket ?? (does LAN1 double up as WAN?)

I really thought I was going to get a Fritz!Box 4040 with a WAN socket for a FTTH installation...

WAN via LAN1 according to this.

https://en.avm.de/products/fritzbox/fritzbox-7530/technical-data/

Did Digiweb not send some instructions?