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Eir rural FTTH thread II

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    #8972
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Anything that involves moving ONTs about eh?
    An ONT is linked to the OLT at the exchange which will also be linked to the Eircode for the premises on the database.
    Would you be taking your exchange and Eircode with you if you moved?

    Good question about the charge to move house though. I've no idea how an ISP or Open Eir would deal with it.


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    #8973
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Do you or anyone else read this differently to what I do?

    If I change ISPs each year over the next 8 years, and the ISPs are still charging ~€100 per migration, is that what Comreg intended?

    It seems not based on that bit I quoted above.

    Yes I believe that is what they intended. They can only work on averages and by switching every year it puts you well above the norm which is an average customer lifetime of 42 months so the average customer will switch 5 times in 20 years. Some customers will never switch and some will switch more frequently. The frequent switcher may now be penalised by these charges in an effort to subsidise the new connections and the non-switchers. You better hope Sky have some crack Senior Counsel employed!

    I haven't really looked at the current offers. This has been in effect since January. What are the various ISPs offering for migrations at the minute?


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    #8974
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »
    Yes I believe that is what they intended. They can only work on averages and by switching every year it puts you well above the norm which is an average customer lifetime of 42 months so the average customer will switch 5 times in 20 years. Some customers will never switch and some will switch more frequently. The frequent switcher may now be penalised by these charges in an effort to subsidise the new connections and the non-switchers. You better hope Sky have some crack Senior Counsel employed!

    I haven't really looked at the current offers. This has been in effect since January. What are the various ISPs offering for migrations at the minute?

    First one I thought of ........ Airwire
    Provider move / Existing fibre line
6 months	€99.00	From €95.00
12 months	€99.00	Free router
18 months	Free	Free router


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    #8975
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Digiweb €49.95 (promotion)
    Sky €50 (have to leave after 12 months as prices are horrendous)


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    #8976
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    Anything that involves moving ONTs about eh?
    An ONT is linked to the OLT at the exchange which will also be linked to the Eircode for the premises on the database.
    Would you be taking your exchange and Eircode with you if you moved?

    Good question about the charge to move house though. I've no idea how an ISP or Open Eir would deal with it.

    ah right so you move out of your house and have to leave your ONT in place because it ties up with eircode for that address and OLT - is that what you are saying? .. and the new tennants might not even want an FTTH service at their house but they still have the ONT there and they pay €170 to get it set up ... even though the hardware is all there ?? - crazy!


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    #8977
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    ah right so you move out of your house and have to leave your ONT in place because it ties up with eircode for that address and OLT - is that what you are saying? .. and the new tennants might not even want an FTTH service at their house but they still have the ONT there and they pay €170 to get it set up ... even though the hardware is all there ?? - crazy!

    Yes just like a phone socket it stays in the house. It belongs to Open Eir, you can't tamper with it.
    Sky's tactic of waiting until people have FTTH installed and then poaching customers was bad and the change Open Eir has put in place to prevent it is also very bad.

    This is what navi and Johnboy1951 have been talking about. The install cost has been reduced to €170 even though it costs much more than this to connect a house. Customers who switch providers are now subsidising the cost of new installations.


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    #8978
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »
    Digiweb €49.95 (promotion)
    Sky €50 (have to leave after 12 months as prices are horrendous)

    Thats who I have gone with - Digiweb , 49.95 installation until end of July.

    Digiweb has Sky down as €200 install fee...

    483206.jpg

    I hope it turns out Digiweb turns out OK as I dont fancy paying another up to €170 install fee after a year is up to change to another supplier!


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    #8979
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    Thats who I have gone with - Digiweb , 49.95 installation until end of July.

    Digiweb has Sky down as €200 install fee...



    I hope it turns out Digiweb turns out OK as I dont fancy paying another up to €170 install fee after a year is up to change to another supplier!

    €200 for a new connection. If there is an existing ONT it is €50.

    You should be fine with Digiweb.


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    #8980
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    tuxy wrote: »
    Yes just like a phone socket it stays in the house. It belongs to Open Eir, you can't tamper with it.
    Sky's tactic of waiting until people have FTTH installed and then poaching customers was bad and the change Open Eir has put in place to prevent it is also very bad.

    This is what navi and Johnboy1951 have been talking about. The install cost has been reduced to €170 even though it costs much more than this to connect a house. Customers who switch providers are now subsidising the cost of new installations.

    Which of course means that if your ISP is providing miserable service it costs you to change to a better provider.
    The following year, if another ISP comes out with a product that suits you, at the right price, then you pay again to move to that provider.
    ...... and so on it goes ..... pay again and again ......


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    #8981
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Which of course means that if your ISP is providing miserable service it costs you to change to a better provider.
    The following year, if another ISP comes out with a product that suits you, at the right price, then you pay again to move to that provider.
    ...... and so on it goes ..... pay again and again ......

    Yes, the cynic in me things that Open Eir came up with a solution that is of most benefit to Eir Retail as they are the provider most people will sign up to at first.
    While I agree something needed to change there must have been a better option.


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    #8982
    Marlow
    Registered Users Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    The 170 eur is excl. VAT .. and is what is charged to the provider.

    How they charge you is up to them. But yes ... it becomes costly to change providers regularly.

    Or providers are forced to require long term contracts.

    /M


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    #8983
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »
    .... You should be fine with Digiweb.

    They seem good so far - been in touch by email and phone and pleasant , and good fritz router they sent out and 100% irish company ... all looks good so far


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    #8984
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    tuxy wrote: »
    Yes, the cynic in me things that Open Eir came up with a solution that is of most benefit to Eir Retail as they are the provider most people will sign up to at first.
    While I agree something needed to change there must have been a better option.

    The open eir proposal (sliding scale over 20 years) seemed much fairer but Comreg in their wisdom would not wait for that to be implemented so pushed this disaster through instead. Obviously the speed at which eir accepted the new scheme shows that it is better for them. The majority of the blame lies with Comreg imo.


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    #8985
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,554 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »
    The open eir proposal (sliding scale over 20 years) seemed much fairer but Comreg in their wisdom would not wait for that to be implemented so pushed this disaster through instead. Obviously the speed at which eir accepted the new scheme shows that it is better for them. The majority of the blame lies with Comreg imo.

    Comreg's reasoning for not recommending the reimbursement model
    as ComReg understands it, Eircom’s proposal requires information on when an initial connection was first made to be readily available to all service providers to allow them to determine the residual life of the connection in advance of placing an order and that it may also require Eircom and service providers to implement upgrades to their systems that will track multiple connection dates and amortise the associated charges before the proposal can be successfully introduced. However, ComReg is not in a position to mandate this approach at this time.

    However, if eircom still wanted to go with the reimbursement model and meet Comreg's conditions as set out in the Decision in relation to this further discussions/consultation would be required
    If Eircom wishes to seek ComReg’s agreement to give it a derogation from the obligations outlined at paragraph 13.47, Eircom shall submit a proposal to ComReg, no later than 40 days after the Effective Date of this Decision, in which it demonstrates that the conditions (a-d) outlined at paragraph 13.49 apply. In this regard, ComReg intends to publish any Eircom application / submission for a derogation on FTTH connections and allow other operators a period of time to provide their views to ComReg. Subsequently, ComReg shall endeavour to respond to such a proposal within 30 days of receipt of the proposal, indicating whether or not it agrees to grant the derogation. It is Eircom’s responsibility to ensure that ComReg has all of the information necessary available to it in order to make the determination required. If ComReg determines that it does not have sufficient information to assess the proposal, ComReg may require further information from Eircom.

    See Section 13.2 of the Decision - Recovery of connection costs - https://www.comreg.ie/publication/pricing-of-wholesale-broadband-services-in-the-wla-and-wca-markets/


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    #8986
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Comreg came to a decision that eir seemed to have no issue with and bearing in mind eir's fractious relationship with the regulator in recent times this is somewhat unusual.

    Secondly the decision has prompted legal action from other operators who are claiming it is unfair.

    What is your opinion on the matter? Is it a fair decision that will drive new connections and promote competition?


  • Options
    #8987
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,554 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »
    What is your opinion on the matter? Is it a fair decision that will drive new connections and promote competition?

    I have read the original consultation and see the reasoning for imposing a new FTTH connection and migration charging model, well worth a read for anyone interested in the charging model.

    The open-eir proposed reimbursement model looked to be the fairest but I can see the complexity involved tracking connections over 20 years. Would Sky and the others be happy with the reimbursement model, probably not?

    New connections will happen in any case as providers will absorb or reduce connection charges. What comes to mind here are the posters who said they would pay much more than this to get fibre run to their premises if they could.

    Will it promote competition, I don't know.

    What I think it will do is reduce churn, for all providers.

    On the court appeal, I can't see Sky winning on this and returning to the original charging model and paying a €2 migration charge, putting all the initial connection cost on the first provider without them having enough time to recover this through their subscription charges.


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    #8988
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    The Cush wrote:
    What I think it will do is reduce churn, for all providers.

    Yes it will because in effect it means raising an unnecessary barrier to any new entrant in the market as well as causing a high cost on the end user when changing.

    That is effectively limiting users' choice by artificial means.
    Not quite what they are supposed to do!
    The open-eir proposed reimbursement model looked to be the fairest but I can see the complexity involved tracking connections over 20 years. Would Sky and the others be happy with the reimbursement model, probably not?

    I do not see any large complexity in this.
    All it requires is a billing system that lists the connection cost separately, which can be pushed onto the new ISP at change.
    As there has to be communication at this time for other reasons, this is just a small bit of extra data to be shared.
    Regarding the extra item on the bill ..... it is already done for other 'extras' such as phone etc.
    I am less interested in Sky's reaction than in what my neighbours cat might think! I am considering only the effect on the end user.
    The present system raises a barrier to changing provider.

    Considering the requirement that Eircom cannot receive more than their costs, how is this to be tracked over 20 years, including allowances for depreciation?
    Is that any less difficult than the Eircom proposal?


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    #8989
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,059 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The idea of competition for utilities provision is an utter nonsense. Before those neocon morons foisted their villainous bile onto the western world, sense prevailed and you had the states providing utilities.

    You have to have a way of making the provision of FTTH infrastructure commercially viable, and as much as I might not like the idea of paying for a connection and then paying to switch, I can see the necessity for it.


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    #8990
    fieldofsheep
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭fieldofsheep


    Had a quick look at signing up to Sky as a new customer (no previous FTTH) - there's a one off charge of €200.  Website wouldn't accept my eircode as an existing FTTH customer, so I rang them up - they said there was no connection fee for an existing connection (just a €10 fee for the new router).  Looks like they're going after the existing FTTH customers rather than trying to entice new ones.


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    #8991
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,059 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    fieldofsheep wrote: »
    Had a quick look at signing up to Sky as a new customer (no previous FTTH) - there's a one off charge of €200.  Website wouldn't accept my eircode as an existing FTTH customer, so I rang them up - they said there was no connection fee for an existing connection (just a €10 fee for the new router).  Looks like they're going after the existing FTTH customers rather than trying to entice new ones.

    They are doing exactly that - they and Vodafone are a shower.


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    #8992
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    cnocbui wrote: »
    The idea of competition for utilities provision is an utter nonsense. Before those neocon morons foisted their villainous bile onto the western world, sense prevailed and you had the states providing utilities.

    You have to have a way of making the provision of FTTH infrastructure commercially viable, and as much as I might not like the idea of paying for a connection and then paying to switch, I can see the necessity for it.

    The connection charge is to pay for the physical connection from DP to home including fibre and other materials as well as labour.

    To switch from one provider to another is simply done at base and costs about €2.50.
    You really think it is equitable that every time you switch you pay a connection (not a switch) charge?


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    #8993
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,554 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    fieldofsheep wrote: »
    Looks like they're going after the existing FTTH customers rather than trying to entice new ones.

    The new migration charge of €170 (+VAT) came into effect from Jan 1st last for all providers, Sky's court appeal of the Comreg Decision doesn't delay its introduction.


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    #8994
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    fieldofsheep wrote: »
    Had a quick look at signing up to Sky as a new customer (no previous FTTH) - there's a one off charge of €200.  Website wouldn't accept my eircode as an existing FTTH customer, so I rang them up - they said there was no connection fee for an existing connection (just a €10 fee for the new router).  Looks like they're going after the existing FTTH customers rather than trying to entice new ones.

    The Sky website claims €50 fee for an existing open eir FTTH connection. So either the site or rep is wrong.


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    #8995
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    On the topic of reducing churn. I suspect the majority, perhaps the vast majority, of new rural FTTH connections are eir connections. They are the ISP with door to door sales selling in rural areas. This decision therefore can be seen as a benefit for eir if it were to hinder these customers from subsequently leaving.


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    #8996
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    IrishHomer reported Sky D2D sales active in his area. Im pretty sure its not just Eir retail using them.


    We dont know what the retail breakdown is like but if I had to bet Eir would be the largest OE-FTTH retailer but not the majority.


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    #8997
    THE ALM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,606 ✭✭✭THE ALM


    ED E wrote: »
    IrishHomer reported Sky D2D sales active in his area. Im pretty sure its not just Eir retail using them.


    We dont know what the retail breakdown is like but if I had to bet Eir would be the largest OE-FTTH retailer but not the majority.

    We had both Eir and Vodafone in our area when it went live, needless to say we went with neither and the Eir guy really had quite a sexist approach from the minute he got out of the van and couldn't believe I wouldn't listen to his offer after telling him all the reasons I wouldn't be going with Eir.


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    #8998
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »
    On the topic of reducing churn. I suspect the majority, perhaps the vast majority, of new rural FTTH connections are eir connections. They are the ISP with door to door sales selling in rural areas. This decision therefore can be seen as a benefit for eir if it were to hinder these customers from subsequently leaving.

    I went with Eir for the first connection, although they were not the most competitive, as I also got Eir Sports included.
    I had every intention of changing provider at end of contract, which has been bolstered by Eir losing some sports coverage I was interested in.

    This duplicate connection charge could very well influence my move to another provider.


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    #8999
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Yay!! - Im up and running on Fibre and i feel like a pig in sh!t .

    What a nice installer i had, so friendly and chatty and helpful , young lad lives locally and he was going to go the extra mile to get it installed today. At one stage we thought it was going to be a failed install. he was rodding one duct in the chamber, one that logically looked like it should be the one for the house and it was get stuck and wouldnt go any further. so then he was going to go overhead from a pole to the chimney to get us connected but couldnt do that because there was not a duct going to that or something so back to the ETU and pulling the PSTN (unused) cable in the ETU but that was stuck so he put some kind of tester that give a signal down the PSTN line and went back to the chamber and picked up a signal from the PSTN copper wire in the chamber and turned out it was in a totally different duct in the chamber , cut the PSTN wire , taped the fibre cable to the PSTN line and pulled it through using the PSTN wire as a draw wire right up into the ETU - Lovely Jubbly.

    He terminated the Fibre to the ONT and measured it and said it was minus 17 or something and should be -12 or was minus 12 at the DP .. i dont really know what all this means but anyway he went back to DP in the chamber and made another new connection on the fibre and when he plugged that in his meter read -13 I think it were.

    So here are my speeds now - (taken on wireless with my mobile standing right next to the router and using speedtest) I must try it later on ethernet hard wired and see what I get.

    483260.jpg


    483261.jpg


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    #9000
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    *waits for andy to dismantle his ONT to see the magic smoke inside*


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    #9001
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    What did the installer do with the copper cable he pulled out?

    I understood they were not allowed to interfere with that.

    Glad you finally got sorted! :)


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